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Post by icecreamdf on Apr 25, 2016 15:14:26 GMT
Like... I think Daleks have poetry, art, and music, just not in the same way we do. Well, they were sort of singing in The Chase.
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Post by aemiliapaula on Apr 25, 2016 23:22:48 GMT
I happen to.like the K9 series
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 23:25:20 GMT
Like... I think Daleks have poetry, art, and music, just not in the same way we do. Well, they were sort of singing in The Chase. According to The Also People, there's a one-hundred and twenty eight stanza poem named "The Lament of the Non-Operational". If I had to guess about its exact contents, it would probably revolve around a Dalek who can no longer perform its function to exterminate or serve the Dalek Empire.
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Post by seeley on Apr 26, 2016 0:36:11 GMT
The Chase also has the "Destroy and Rejoice" bit, which seems rather like a Dalek battle chant.
And speaking of Daleks, I like to think that the word-filtering technology revealed in "The Witch's Familiar" was a result of the civil war in Evil, so as to ensure that any future deviants are promptly blown up the moment they make contact with another species.
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Post by jasonward on Apr 26, 2016 1:30:20 GMT
I've often thought that Dalek society must be more complex (in so much as there must be a Dalek society), each Dalek is clearly able to have independent thought, and knows itself to be "I". It would not surprise me to find that they had singing and poetry although almost certainly not in a form we would recognise.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 1:53:09 GMT
I've often thought that Dalek society must be more complex (in so much as there must be a Dalek society), each Dalek is clearly able to have independent thought, and knows itself to be "I". It would not surprise me to find that they had singing and poetry although almost certainly not in a form we would recognise. I'm not a fan of Daleks being complex, myself and personally feel that Asylum of The Daleks did more harm then good to the image of The Daleks. It just seems to take too much away from the horror of Davros's re-engineering and lobotimising his own people. For me, The Daleks should always be horrific creatures of hate and destruction and empty shells of 'humanity'. For me, they know each other as part as a collective, but that's pretty much it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 3:36:04 GMT
I've often thought that Dalek society must be more complex (in so much as there must be a Dalek society), each Dalek is clearly able to have independent thought, and knows itself to be "I". It would not surprise me to find that they had singing and poetry although almost certainly not in a form we would recognise. I'm not a fan of Daleks being complex, myself and personally feel that Asylum of The Daleks did more harm then good to the image of The Daleks. It just seems to take too much away from the horror of Davros's re-engineering and lobotimising his own people. For me, The Daleks should always be horrific creatures of hate and destruction and empty shells of 'humanity'. For me, they know each other as part as a collective, but that's pretty much it. It's a very, very fine line to tightrope across and one which I think only David Whitaker was able to really pull off. A Dalek should never be sympathetic because it defeats the absolute purpose of the Dalek (discounting Jubilee and The Evil of the Daleks where such a subversion was intentional). If you want a sympathetic antagonist, you go for the Cybermen: adversaries that are offering you the possibility never to be hurt ever again, but at the cost of your soul. That said, I do believe that Daleks have an accentuated trait buried deep beneath their conditioning that constitutes a personality quirk, even if each as deplorable as the last. And I do like the idea of Zeg from Duel of the Daleks who challenges the Emperor's authority only because he believes that he himself is more qualified to lead the Dalek race towards their ultimate goal of total conquest of the cosmos. I am more inclined to believe that it started happening in the very early days of their creation and following their pilgrimage home to find their creator. I don't believe that the Imperial Daleks were made exclusively from Tranquil Repose's corpses, I think there were more than a few Daleks who got out of the hatchery with a greater inclination to side with their creator than their current leader.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Apr 26, 2016 7:17:46 GMT
The Forester family in the VNA future stories used to collected Dalek poetry.
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Post by mrperson on Apr 27, 2016 15:05:55 GMT
I do understand where you are coming from (at points in the RTD era it felt more like Eastenders in Space than Doctor Who) but I have the opposite problem with Classic Who, we know next to nothing about most the companions history and families, and it seems kinda hard to believe they could dissapear for months or years at a time without their families noticing... Sorry for going on about this, but... The dynamic comes from the relationship between Doctor and companion, and what the companion can bring to the story. Is there anyone on this forum who watched Classic Who before NuWho, and thought "I would have enjoyed Inferno more, if I had seen Liz Shaws parents"? or "I would have enjoyed Robot more if we had a flashback to Harry Sullivans parents waving to him from the platform as he took the train to enlisted in the Navy"? I don't need to know anything about the companions private life/parents. If you've read the classic literature of Conan Doyles Sherlock Holmes, we basically only know information about his brother. Nothing, or extremely, very little about his parents. Its not important. It doesn't help tell the story. Its padding. Granada Productions had nothing about his parents. It didn't advance the story. Now, Moffat comes along and we meet Sherlocks parents. Its very sad for tv. Fully agree In a way it's a reflection of something most modern TV shows try to do - to incorporate every last potential aspect of human life into a show. So, in shows like The Sopranos or Breaking Bad, we end up having to watch subplots about children's relationship problems, which has absolutely nothing to do with the point of the show. And here, we get an entire series about Clara and her boyfriend. I think it waters things down and makes for the dullest parts of modern TV, but the trend seems to have stuck. I prefer that shows have narrower focuses, and explore the the focus more deeply with the extra time...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2016 0:07:29 GMT
Sorry for going on about this, but... The dynamic comes from the relationship between Doctor and companion, and what the companion can bring to the story. Is there anyone on this forum who watched Classic Who before NuWho, and thought "I would have enjoyed Inferno more, if I had seen Liz Shaws parents"? or "I would have enjoyed Robot more if we had a flashback to Harry Sullivans parents waving to him from the platform as he took the train to enlisted in the Navy"? I don't need to know anything about the companions private life/parents. If you've read the classic literature of Conan Doyles Sherlock Holmes, we basically only know information about his brother. Nothing, or extremely, very little about his parents. Its not important. It doesn't help tell the story. Its padding. Granada Productions had nothing about his parents. It didn't advance the story. Now, Moffat comes along and we meet Sherlocks parents. Its very sad for tv. Fully agree In a way it's a reflection of something most modern TV shows try to do - to incorporate every last potential aspect of human life into a show. So, in shows like The Sopranos or Breaking Bad, we end up having to watch subplots about children's relationship problems, which has absolutely nothing to do with the point of the show. And here, we get an entire series about Clara and her boyfriend. I think it waters things down and makes for the dullest parts of modern TV, but the trend seems to have stuck. I prefer that shows have narrower focuses, and explore the the focus more deeply with the extra time... It's also something we saw done before (and a lot more effectively for the most part) with the Ponds. I think the main issue was that it became all about the relationship rather than the people actually in it. We never (or in the case of Clara, hardly ever) saw these two interact outside of that context.
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Post by Ela on Apr 28, 2016 0:32:21 GMT
I do understand where you are coming from (at points in the RTD era it felt more like Eastenders in Space than Doctor Who) but I have the opposite problem with Classic Who, we know next to nothing about most the companions history and families, and it seems kinda hard to believe they could dissapear for months or years at a time without their families noticing... Sorry for going on about this, but... The dynamic comes from the relationship between Doctor and companion, and what the companion can bring to the story. Is there anyone on this forum who watched Classic Who before NuWho, and thought "I would have enjoyed Inferno more, if I had seen Liz Shaws parents"? or "I would have enjoyed Robot more if we had a flashback to Harry Sullivans parents waving to him from the platform as he took the train to enlisted in the Navy"? I didn't "need" those details in Classic Who, but I don't feel that it detracted from new Who (sorry, I can't call it "NuWho" - that's not a word) to have those details in the RTD stories and even in the Eleventh Doctor stories. Those details were very much a part of the story.
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Post by acousticwolf on Apr 28, 2016 8:35:56 GMT
Sorry for going on about this, but... The dynamic comes from the relationship between Doctor and companion, and what the companion can bring to the story. Is there anyone on this forum who watched Classic Who before NuWho, and thought "I would have enjoyed Inferno more, if I had seen Liz Shaws parents"? or "I would have enjoyed Robot more if we had a flashback to Harry Sullivans parents waving to him from the platform as he took the train to enlisted in the Navy"? I didn't "need" those details in Classic Who, but I don't feel that it detracted from new Who (sorry, I can't call it "NuWho" - that's not a word) to have those details in the RTD stories and even in the Eleventh Doctor stories. Those details were very much a part of the story. I think a lot of it is a generation thing. Back then (in "the Golden Age") stories were written for a totally different time and audience. TV (and the media in general) has changed so much since then and everything now is "instant, on demand" or has to be "action, action" all the time. The audience is so very different nowadays and pretty much (generalising here) most TV is very Soap-like and focuses on relationships. It's no wonder the writers of the New Series have followed that trend and writes more for the companions ... I'm with Ela, I didn't need to hear about Liz Shaw's parents or where Sarah Jane shopped but I'm not sure the new series can move away from that now. Even the companions in Big Finish have more back stories than the classic era. My wife said it perfectly yesterday, "The Doctor has become the companion ..." None of which makes the new series bad, it's just adapting to the times ... Cheers Tony
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Post by jasonward on Apr 28, 2016 9:18:22 GMT
My wife said it perfectly yesterday, "The Doctor has become the companion ..." Which for me, totally undermines who the Doctor is, he's alien in virtually everything except appearance, he, by human standards is hyper-intellegent, extremely long lived, hyper-observant etc etc, The Doctor should, in all ways, except humanity totally outshine and eclipse the companions. The companions should be our access into The Doctors world, not the other way around.
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Post by acousticwolf on Apr 28, 2016 9:35:54 GMT
My wife said it perfectly yesterday, "The Doctor has become the companion ..." Which for me, totally undermines who the Doctor is, he's alien in virtually everything except appearance, he, by human standards is hyper-intellegent, extremely long lived, hyper-observant etc etc, The Doctor should, in all ways, except humanity totally outshine and eclipse the companions. The companions should be our access into The Doctors world, not the other way around. I completely agree. That's why I hoped they would have chosen an alien (at least non Earth) companion next. Cheers Tony
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2016 9:53:00 GMT
My wife said it perfectly yesterday, "The Doctor has become the companion ..." Which for me, totally undermines who the Doctor is, he's alien in virtually everything except appearance, he, by human standards is hyper-intellegent, extremely long lived, hyper-observant etc etc, The Doctor should, in all ways, except humanity totally outshine and eclipse the companions. The companions should be our access into The Doctors world, not the other way around. That has its own worrying implications actually... At its heart, Doctor Who is science fiction or at the very least science fantasy and sci-fi to me has always been about the wonder of foreign worlds who birth unearthly children. I said Red Dawn was something of a period piece nowadays because that 1990s brighter future and brave new worlds outlook doesn't exist in the same way it once was. It makes me wonder... Have we forgotten how to marvel at the strange and the abnormal? Are we no longer satisfied by touching the alien sand, hearing the cry of strange birds and watching them wheel in another sky? Have we become so self-obsessed and so cynical about the world that we can no longer imagine beyond our own sphere? I don't have any answers to give, but I have to ask: What happened to that sense of wonder?
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Post by acousticwolf on Apr 28, 2016 10:01:43 GMT
Which for me, totally undermines who the Doctor is, he's alien in virtually everything except appearance, he, by human standards is hyper-intellegent, extremely long lived, hyper-observant etc etc, The Doctor should, in all ways, except humanity totally outshine and eclipse the companions. The companions should be our access into The Doctors world, not the other way around. That has its own worrying implications actually... At its heart, Doctor Who is science fiction or at the very least science fantasy and sci-fi to me has always been about the wonder of foreign worlds who birth unearthly children. I said Red Dawn was something of a period piece nowadays because that 1990s brighter future and brave new worlds outlook doesn't exist in the same way it once was. It makes me wonder... Have we forgotten how to marvel at the strange and the abnormal? Are we no longer satisfied by touching the alien sand, hearing the cry of strange birds and watching them wheel in another sky? Have we become so self-obsessed and so cynical about the world that we can no longer imagine beyond our own sphere? I don't have any answers to give, but I have to ask: What happened to that sense of wonder? We grew up and saw what life is really like Cheers Tony Boy am I grumpy today! EDIT: Beautiful words @wolfie53 - I do still see that wonder ... in my son's eyes. As we get older we (I, definitely) become more cynical and forget how to see the wonder we used to see as children. I forget the last time I just looked at the stars or watched clouds forming shapes - everything is rush, rush and be afraid of everything. I partly blame the media, but also the lifestyle we are expected to lead these days. Oh to go back to that innocence ...
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Post by Ela on Apr 28, 2016 11:53:50 GMT
Which for me, totally undermines who the Doctor is, he's alien in virtually everything except appearance, he, by human standards is hyper-intellegent, extremely long lived, hyper-observant etc etc, The Doctor should, in all ways, except humanity totally outshine and eclipse the companions. The companions should be our access into The Doctors world, not the other way around. I completely agree. That's why I hoped they would have chosen an alien (at least non Earth) companion next. Cheers Tony I don't think I agree that the Doctor has become the companion. The Doctor is still the focus and he's still very alien, even though he is in a human body. You can really see that in the way Matt Smith played the character - he was very young in appearance, but you had the impression of a very old soul in that young body, who didn't really get human interactions. Capaldi too, is quite alien in the way he behaves with humans. Tennant had the most "human" qualities of the new Who Doctors, but even with his you could see alien-ness in the way he reacted in certain situations. An alien companion would be interesting, I agree, but I'm not sure I understand your reasons for it.
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Post by acousticwolf on Apr 28, 2016 12:13:15 GMT
I completely agree. That's why I hoped they would have chosen an alien (at least non Earth) companion next. Cheers Tony I don't think I agree that the Doctor has become the companion. The Doctor is still the focus and he's still very alien, even though he is in a human body. You can really see that in the way Matt Smith played the character - he was very young in appearance, but you had the impression of a very old soul in that young body, who didn't really get human interactions. Capaldi too, is quite alien in the way he behaves with humans. Tennant had the most "human" qualities of the new Who Doctors, but even with his you could see alien-ness in the way he reacted in certain situations. An alien companion would be interesting, I agree, but I'm not sure I understand your reasons for it. You're right, the Doctor is still very alien - I have no argument with that and Matt Smith is my favourite out of all of the new series Doctors. The issue for me is that, it doesn't seem to be (much) about the Doctor anymore (to me anyway). The focus seems to be very much on the companions ( everyone of them is special and is crucial to the universe). My thinking is that if he had a non earth companion (or a far future, or far past one) it would shift the focus away. After all, how many earth people can be that crucial to the survival of the universe? Plus it would bring a different dynamic to his travels. For the record, I much prefer Victorian Clara to Danny/Post Danny Clara and would like to have seen her continue to travel with the doctor (of course that would have changed the whole Impossible Girl arc lol). The good thing with fandom is that we don't have to agree . Cheers Tony
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Post by Ela on Apr 28, 2016 12:22:06 GMT
I don't think I agree that the Doctor has become the companion. The Doctor is still the focus and he's still very alien, even though he is in a human body. You can really see that in the way Matt Smith played the character - he was very young in appearance, but you had the impression of a very old soul in that young body, who didn't really get human interactions. Capaldi too, is quite alien in the way he behaves with humans. Tennant had the most "human" qualities of the new Who Doctors, but even with his you could see alien-ness in the way he reacted in certain situations. An alien companion would be interesting, I agree, but I'm not sure I understand your reasons for it. You're right, the Doctor is still very alien - I have no argument with that and Matt Smith is my favourite out of all of the new series Doctors. The issue for me is that, it doesn't seem to be (much) about the Doctor anymore (to me anyway). The focus seems to be very much on the companions ( everyone of them is special and is crucial to the universe). My thinking is that if he had a non earth companion (or a far future, or far past one) it would shift the focus away. After all, how many earth people can be that crucial to the survival of the universe? Plus it would bring a different dynamic to his travels. For the record, I much prefer Victorian Clara to Danny/Post Danny Clara and would like to have seen her continue to travel with the doctor (of course that would have changed the whole Impossible Girl arc lol). The good thing with fandom is that we don't have to agree . Cheers Tony Ah, the everyone is crucial and special to the universe thing. I don't know what to say about that. Donna was the first one, wasn't she? It really worked with Donna, but it wasn't really played up throughout the series with her so much that it became a thing. I see that really becoming a thing with Amy. It was "all about" her. Clara was a mystery to be solved, but more crucial to the Doctor's timeline, I think, then to the universe. My two cents' worth.
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Post by acousticwolf on Apr 28, 2016 12:47:04 GMT
Ah, the everyone is crucial and special to the universe thing. I don't know what to say about that. Donna was the first one, wasn't she? It really worked with Donna, but it wasn't really played up throughout the series with her so much that it became a thing. I see that really becoming a thing with Amy. It was "all about" her. Clara was a mystery to be solved, but more crucial to the Doctor's timeline, I think, then to the universe. My two cents' worth. Lol! Depends how you look at it : Rose - central to the Doctor and crossed the void for him (Tenth Doctor quote " Rose Tyler: Defender of the Earth") and comes back to help Donna in "Turn Left", Martha - started off being a simple companion but ended up saving the Tenth Doctor with her stories Donna (I like Donna) - Appears in the Tardis after Rose departs, the Doctor-Donna (superb), seems to have a special Grandfather (Wilf) Wilfred Mott - " Who are you Wilfred Mott?" asks the Tenth Doctor Amy ... 'nuff said (I like Amy), Rory (" destined to die and die again") Clara - we know all about Clara How about an average companion once in a while lol Cheers Tony
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