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Post by silverednickle on Oct 30, 2016 16:29:36 GMT
I always Gabriel and Edith had sons plural. Early in 1840 Gabriel comments how happy he was to send his sons off to boarding school to get away from the hysterical governess Hortense. Later when Daniel's will is read, doesn't it note that Gabriel's sons have inherited previously (maybe from his wife Harriet). Perhaps one could be Jonah Collins who died young sans heirs and the other the father of Judith, Edward, Quentin, and Carl (there might even be another who eventually has the descent of Cousin Catherine, who lives in New York and likes to take Carolyn to parties).
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Post by barnabaslives on Feb 25, 2017 16:06:13 GMT
I never did get back to this, did I? I think what's confusing may be running across a scene with Samantha and Edith where Samantha seems to be referring to a single child of Edith and Gabriel sent off to boarding school, and that Daniel's will seems very ambiguous about the names or number of Gabriel and Edith's children, deferring the issue mainly to provisions that were made for them in Harriet's will some time earlier. Also there's a scene (1120)where Gabriel is petitioning Daniel to change the will on behalf of his grandchildren, but even that may be as flexible as Samantha's reference (Gabriel could be saying "children" in a figurative sense leaving room for future offspring).
Of references I've been able to locate, I think it's the one with Hortense that you mention that may be most concrete, where Gabriel is talking to Barnabas (1130) and refers to children plural who were sent off to boarding school past tense. If he'd said, "She's the reason why I send my children away to school school" it could be figurative again, but I'm fairly sure Christopher Pennock pronounces the "t" in sent very crisply and clearly.
So I think it may be established that Edith and Gabriel did have more than one child, but I still don't think I've found any references that establish a specific number or names. (This is most likely just my speculation but the way Samantha brings up a child of Edith's sent to boarding school seems in enough of an accusatory tone to leave room to wonder if perhaps something happened to that particular child while at boarding school).
Anyway, nothing worth losing sleep over but I'm always intrigued about possibilities of Dark Shadows roles from the OS that remain uncast, which would hopefully make it easier for Big Finish to cast them (and it is sort of strange still having such a prominent uncertainty in the Collins lineage).
I was also intrigued with the painting that appears in Blair House - there are a number of stills with it looming very prominently behind Adam. It's presence there and its prominence might lead one to easily think it could be Caleb himself (if so he would appear to have his father's moustache) :-) except that the painting also appears in Barnabas' room at the Old House in 1795.
Just fun to wonder - I doubt whether the set designers were giving things that much thought, but it's still a fascinating proposition nonetheless whether the paintings and their placement can actually be made to fit with the family tree, in hopefully a mutually complimentary way. Also I can't quite be sure they weren't thinking about these things.
That's actually an amazing thing about Dark Shadows that I was reminded of while looking for artifacts for the "Collinsport in 100 Objects" thread, is that for a show that didn't see fit to retake even some serious bloopers "because no one will ever see these episodes again anyway," there was still some remarkable attention to prop detail in places anyway. That goes at least as far back as the camera zooming in on Josette's portrait in the family album to show a woman who looks not unlike Josette's portrait at the Old House and where it actually says "Josette Collins" under the portrait with dates of birth and death, and all that mainly for a close-up that probably didn't last more than 3 seconds.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2017 16:31:53 GMT
I really do appreciate the info that you guys put together for this. Thanks a lot.
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Post by Zagreus on Feb 25, 2017 18:05:43 GMT
Given the split with parallel time apparently happened with Barnabas actually marrying Josette, shouldn't some version of Justin Collins be floating around in the main timeline of the era? And possibly his sister Julia? He'd not necessarily have married the same, and had the same children, but still... Unless the split happened earlier and the reason the wedding went off without a hitch was the lack of a certain witch...
And then there's Brutus and his family, but that's a whole different can of worms...
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Post by Trace on Feb 26, 2017 3:35:10 GMT
I always believed that the concept of parallel time didn't necessarily mean that everyone has a counterpart in the main timeline, or vice versa. Main timeline Justin could have died at birth, if he ever existed at all. Also, as presented on DS, counterparts may have a completely different name and identity. I always liked believing that Cyrus Longworth was the parallel counterpart of either Jeb Hawkes or Sebastian Shaw; Daniel Collins (son of PT Quentin and Angelique Stokes Collins) was the parallel counterpart of David Collins; Melanie Collins was the parallel counterpart of Letitia Faye; Alexis Stokes was the parallel counterpart of nobody, as I believed, were Julia and Justin Collins. Of course, BF threw my theory out the window with the arrival of main timeline Cyrus! Just when you think you have it all figured out.....
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Post by omega on Feb 27, 2017 4:41:22 GMT
I always believed that the concept of parallel time didn't necessarily mean that everyone has a counterpart in the main timeline, or vice versa. Main timeline Justin could have died at birth, if he ever existed at all. Also, as presented on DS, counterparts may have a completely different name and identity. I always liked believing that Cyrus Longworth was the parallel counterpart of either Jeb Hawkes or Sebastian Shaw; Daniel Collins (son of PT Quentin and Angelique Stokes Collins) was the parallel counterpart of David Collins; Melanie Collins was the parallel counterpart of Letitia Faye; Alexis Stokes was the parallel counterpart of nobody, as I believed, were Julia and Justin Collins. Of course, BF threw my theory out the window with the arrival of main timeline Cyrus! Just when you think you have it all figured out..... There's also Buffy Harrington from the 1970 Parallel Time storyline, who had a Main Time-Band counterpart in the audio The Enemy Within (which is part of the 1973 arc). Alexis Stokes didn't have a Main Time-Band counterpart, as the Angelique we know isn't known to have any siblings who look like her, much less any she's aware of. In a loose way, Alexis could possibly be a PT version of Cassandra.
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Post by thenchick92 on Apr 3, 2017 4:38:20 GMT
Given the split with parallel time apparently happened with Barnabas actually marrying Josette, shouldn't some version of Justin Collins be floating around in the main timeline of the era? And possibly his sister Julia? He'd not necessarily have married the same, and had the same children, but still... Unless the split happened earlier and the reason the wedding went off without a hitch was the lack of a certain witch... And then there's Brutus and his family, but that's a whole different can of worms... Well I was wondering about that too... Could the unnamed husband of Flora's happen to be Justin Collins as well? I'm wondering if Brutus could've been Isaac's father or uncle which would in turn connect them to the rest.
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Post by thenchick92 on Apr 3, 2017 4:55:26 GMT
I'm still trying to think of what might be the most elegant and canonical way both of working all of this out. I think I've come up with a theory just maybe, but I don't know if it actually works - especially if anything canonical contraindicates it. For whatever it's worth, it is: Caleb and Theodore have another brother, Benjamin Collins. He has earned his portrait the prime position in the foyer being the very first ancestor to greet guests, by making a particularly substantial contribution to the building of Collinwood although unable to attend the wedding of Joshua and Laura, and his portrait appears there as early as 1795 when the masonry is still fresh at the newly built mansion. He is the father of a successful namesake, Benjamin Collins II, whose portrait is normally seen over the telephone in the drawing room, which appears in storylines as early as 1840. Thus both Elizabeth and Roger are right when identifying the two different portraits as Benjamin respectively (I did have second thoughts about the idea that Roger could live at Collinwood all those years and still have no idea whose portrait is in the foyer, and I also took some inspiration from the way Joe Lidster handled the interpretation of the Cunningham family as quoted earlier in the thread. A number of the Collins still unplaced in the family tree - Abner, Augustine, Flora & Desmond, and even "the original David Collins" might originate from Benjamin's bloodline? If Edith and Gabriel only had one child canonically, and particularly if that child proves to be Sayer Caleb Collins who died unwed and presumably childless, the Collins family might have ended had Edith not remarried after the loss of Gabriel. If Edith had married a cousin from Benjamin's bloodline, it might contribute to the explanation of the prominence of the portraits of Benjamin I and II, since it would have been Benjamin's bloodline that the present day Collinses are descended from, after both Caleb and Theodore's bloodlines ended. Theodore, whose bloodline gave a good try at keeping the Collinses in existence has a modest sized portrait in the drawing room; Benjamin II, whose bloodline actually succeeded, gets to have a larger one on display. Jonah Collins might either alternately be the first son of Edith and Gabriel, or a second one, who left no heirs due to his untimely end - or the first child of Edith and her husband after Gabriel, followed by Edward, Quentin, Judith and Carl? Perhaps a likely candidate for Edith's husband after Gabriel would be Abner, who may be pictured with a Bible in his portrait, providing Judith and her siblings with the strict god-fearing father she described. Abner might be Gabriel's senior by not more than, say, 10 years were his portrait painted relatively recently in 1840 when it hangs outside the playroom? I am assuming that Edith somehow survived the attempt on her life in 1840 (possibly just by playing dead if canon will actually allow that, which might be the least damage to the timeline?) but yes - the 1897 generation of Collinses presumably does have to come from somewhere. :-) BTW, does anyone know who this is supposed to be? I've been calling it the fifth portrait since it's the fifth one in the drawing room not counting the one over the liquor cabinet, but if the latter appears as early as episode 22 and this one doesn't appear earlier than episode 65, it's technically the sixth of the drawing room portraits in order of appearance. Somehow it looks older than Isaac (it's the poncey hair, I think), so I have a tentative theory that it's Isaac's father, Ponce de Collins, who amassed a vast fortune smuggling afghans, but that's probably not a very good theory. :-) It would make sense if real time Flora was connected to Caleb and Theodore's brother Benjamin. I would think Jonah would be Edward and his siblings' father.
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Post by Zagreus on Apr 3, 2017 4:56:26 GMT
Given the split with parallel time apparently happened with Barnabas actually marrying Josette, shouldn't some version of Justin Collins be floating around in the main timeline of the era? And possibly his sister Julia? He'd not necessarily have married the same, and had the same children, but still... Unless the split happened earlier and the reason the wedding went off without a hitch was the lack of a certain witch... And then there's Brutus and his family, but that's a whole different can of worms... Well I was wondering about that too... Could the unnamed husband of Flora's happen to be Justin Collins as well? I'm wondering if Brutus could've been Isaac's father or uncle which would in turn connect them to the rest. Oh! Now there's a thought! I don't see why that couldn't be the case. You think they could convince David Hurst to record a play or two as him?
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Post by barnabaslives on Apr 3, 2017 12:44:25 GMT
It would make sense if real time Flora was connected to Caleb and Theodore's brother Benjamin. I would think Jonah would be Edward and his siblings' father. Welcome! Always happy to meet anyone who cares about any of this :-) I think I've probably lost the plot on this by now, but it maybe seemed like Jonah met a bit of an early end for that? Can't for the life of me remember the actual dates given, though.
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Post by thenchick92 on Apr 4, 2017 3:42:23 GMT
I also was thinking could Brutus have been a cousin to Isaac and Asmadeus like Silas and his wife Grace were to Joshua and Jeremiah?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2018 12:03:27 GMT
This thread on the old forum has a post by Joe Lidster sorting out some of the Cunningham geneology. forums.bigfinish.com/threads/1021-Dark-Shadows-36-The-Lucifer-Gambit/page4I *think* it's a goof. The idea was a late addition to The Lucifer Gambit. We realised we had two women with supernatural abilities who were both roughly contemporary and both British so we thought it'd be a fun Dark Shadows thing to say they were cousins. So the idea was that Leona Covington from The Phantom Bride was the cousin of Isobel Randall from The Lucifer Gambit. However, Matthew Samuels then says that Isobel's maiden name was Cunningham.
So if we want to make it fit...
Bob Covington had two children, Mary and Mathias.
Mathias married Jennifer Haggerty and had one daughter - Leona.
Mary married Derek Cunningham (cousin of John Cunningham from The Creeping Fog) and had one daughter - Isobel.
So that makes them cousins, yeah, but with different surnames? Sadly, Mary and Derek died off-screen which meant that Isobel was brought up by the Covingtons - giving her access to their books about magic etc.
So Matthew was right! She was Leona Cunningham before she married sexy Dominic Randall BUT when she says to Amy "Hey, I was just learning a few of the old Covington family secrets" it's because she was brought up by her cousin's family - the Covingtons.
I think that all works. Can we confirm this is canon now?
cheers JoeHa, I listened to Lucifer Gambit last night for first time and thought who are the Covingtons so that’s as clear as mud,just joking great Family tree from TRACE too
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