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Post by mrperson on May 2, 2016 21:09:04 GMT
I think "Moffat needs to go" is valid comment. I used to love his stuff, but it now just seems tired and I'm really concerned about the fact he's doing series 10 when he really wanted to leave. Personally I find the consistency of his work really suffers over time as he constantly needs to reinvent. According to Moffat the old saying seems to be "if it isn't broken, break it anyway so you can fix it". as in he needs to find a way to make every season different to the last. I can understand his concern that the show will otherwise become stale, but we could easily take three years of stability before he needs to mix it up. I've gone on at length about this at length here, in the old forum, and on Gallifrey Base, so I'll leave it at "I agree." Loved S5; S6, and his overall show-running, started to go off track with "A Good Man Goes to War". Still love the occasional episode, still like some others, but increasingly dislike a larger percentage of episodes which is rather aggravating to me because there's so much great stuff in the portion of the universe I pay attention to (TV and Audio, strictly). Ok, I'll leave it at "I agree" plus that comment.
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Post by constonks on May 3, 2016 3:02:58 GMT
I think "Moffat needs to go" is valid comment. I used to love his stuff, but it now just seems tired and I'm really concerned about the fact he's doing series 10 when he really wanted to leave. Personally I find the consistency of his work really suffers over time as he constantly needs to reinvent. According to Moffat the old saying seems to be "if it isn't broken, break it anyway so you can fix it". as in he needs to find a way to make every season different to the last. I can understand his concern that the show will otherwise become stale, but we could easily take three years of stability before he needs to mix it up. You may think it valid now, but what about the people who have been screaming that Moffat was terrible and Moffat "needs to go" for basically his entire tenure as show runner? When exactly does it become valid? I think that sort of criticism is only really valid when it's used as something positive - not "anyone else would be better!" but more "it might be time for something new". Which I agree with! I like Moffat as a person and a writer, but is it time for the next showrunner to get on board? Yeah, of course it is. I basically start tuning out criticisms when you can't take anything positive from it. Or if someone thinks the only way to fix things is to fire someone specific, be it an actor or a writer. When a critic basically says People Don't Improve So Get Better People, they've lost me.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2016 8:37:03 GMT
You may think it valid now, but what about the people who have been screaming that Moffat was terrible and Moffat "needs to go" for basically his entire tenure as show runner? When exactly does it become valid? I think that sort of criticism is only really valid when it's used as something positive - not "anyone else would be better!" but more "it might be time for something new". Which I agree with! I like Moffat as a person and a writer, but is it time for the next showrunner to get on board? Yeah, of course it is. I basically start tuning out criticisms when you can't take anything positive from it. Or if someone thinks the only way to fix things is to fire someone specific, be it an actor or a writer. When a critic basically says People Don't Improve So Get Better People, they've lost me. And it's not as if his tenure has produced nothing but garbage. Vincent and the Doctor, The Snowmen and Heaven Sent are three stories I would say meets the Big Finish high bar with a beautiful historical character piece, an energetic adventure romp and a nightmarish high concept worthy of settling amongst Mortimore mindscrews like The Natural History of Fear, Campaign and Eye of Heaven. The man has shown that he can pick and write good stories, he just seems to fall flat on his face when it comes to wrangling a plot and expanding beyond his Steven Kingish archetypes.
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bobod
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Post by bobod on May 3, 2016 8:46:41 GMT
You may think it valid now, but what about the people who have been screaming that Moffat was terrible and Moffat "needs to go" for basically his entire tenure as show runner? When exactly does it become valid? I think everyone's mileage will vary, but there's clearly a huge difference between the two. If you don't like someone from day one, my feeling is you just need to keep your head down and wait for them to move on. Not every era is to everyones taste and the beauty of Doctor Who is they all move on eventually. Yes, exactly.
Often it can boil down to "stop making it the way other people like it, and make it the way I like it".
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Post by paulmorris7777 on May 3, 2016 11:19:07 GMT
While I definitely agree that it becomes a bit much at times, if the criticism remains constructive - if it would be more likely to inspire future writers than push them away from Who - I see no harm in it. When it becomes "Moffat needs to go!! Bring back David Tennant!!!" on the other hand... Edit/Afterthought: Also it's grating when it's all someone talks about. I've unfollowed at least one prominent Big Finish fan on tumblr cause of excessive hate tainting everything they ever talked about. I think "Moffat needs to go" is valid comment. I used to love his stuff, but it now just seems tired and I'm really concerned about the fact he's doing series 10 when he really wanted to leave. Personally I find the consistency of his work really suffers over time as he constantly needs to reinvent. According to Moffat the old saying seems to be "if it isn't broken, break it anyway so you can fix it". as in he needs to find a way to make every season different to the last. I can understand his concern that the show will otherwise become stale, but we could easily take three years of stability before he needs to mix it up. This is the first I've heard that Moffat wanted to leave before series 10.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2016 12:07:47 GMT
I think "Moffat needs to go" is valid comment. I used to love his stuff, but it now just seems tired and I'm really concerned about the fact he's doing series 10 when he really wanted to leave. Personally I find the consistency of his work really suffers over time as he constantly needs to reinvent. According to Moffat the old saying seems to be "if it isn't broken, break it anyway so you can fix it". as in he needs to find a way to make every season different to the last. I can understand his concern that the show will otherwise become stale, but we could easily take three years of stability before he needs to mix it up. This is the first I've heard that Moffat wanted to leave before series 10. Well he's on record as saying both that he thought series 9 would be his last and that he was involved in the search for finding his successor, and that they shouldn't pretend it wasn't a problem it was taking so long to replace him, because it was (a problem). I wouldn't be surprised if he actually wanted to leave after series 8, although I have no evidence for that, just my gut feel. By that time he had done four seasons across five years and two Doctors, very much like RTD.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on May 3, 2016 22:22:52 GMT
This is the first I've heard that Moffat wanted to leave before series 10. Well he's on record as saying both that he thought series 9 would be his last and that he was involved in the search for finding his successor, and that they shouldn't pretend it wasn't a problem it was taking so long to replace him, because it was (a problem). I wouldn't be surprised if he actually wanted to leave after series 8, although I have no evidence for that, just my gut feel. By that time he had done four seasons across five years and two Doctors, very much like RTD. Do have a link?
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Post by barnabaslives on May 4, 2016 1:38:21 GMT
I seem to be arriving at the conclusion lately that what bothers me about New Who may not have so much to do with who the showrunner is, but rather that the New Series seems to aspire to immortality by being all things to everyone so that all sorts of things get tossed into the stewpot, but I'm not sure if anyone is really stirring it - so there are occasional lumps like The Big Bang or Kill the Moon.
I think the former one could be the best example of the Bigness that seems to sometimes haunt the series (a more recent example being the use of four and a half billion where four and a half thousand probably would have easily sufficed for the purposes of underscoring The Doctor's profound determination). Kill the Moon bothers me because I'm sure I can hear science teachers groaning from here - no one seems to complain much about just pulling completely fabricated science out of your ear in sci-fi of course, but taking questionable liberties with established science is maybe another thing. Nothing wrong with kids being able to counter parental contentions that their favorite show is rotting their minds, with the idea that they might actually be learning something from it. That strikes me as part of the perennial appeal of perhaps historicals especially.
Hence Kill the Moon isn't even allowed near my head canon, yet if the same premise had unfolded a little more sensibly with the moon of an uninhabited planet and had been witnessed mainly from a space station, I think it would probably be a favorite of mine and could have been twice as glorious visually.
Likewise, the new series seems so focused on what are presumably key demographics that I'm almost certain that if we ever get the fabled Talking Cabbage in the New Series, it will undoubtedly be a earth-born, female Talking Cabbage in its early twenties so they can be darned sure that we can all relate to it, but then historically the show will turn around and have completely over-the-top things happen to these companions that perhaps no one can possibly relate to vicariously or otherwise, like Bad Wolf and Clara Splinters.
I'm not entirely certain these sort of things will be anything that Chibnall can save us from, nor am I at all certain I should blame them all on RTD or Moffat. The roots of Bigness can actually be traced far back in the OS - and to The Key to Time, my favorite DW of all - but I just wish DW had left Bigness behind because it's so hard to keep raising the stakes past "the very fabric of umpteen universes" hanging in the balance.
I'm actually tempted to think that both of the NS showrunners have done a pretty fine job, and I think both of them have probably made a remarkable amount of respectful gestures to the classic series even while trying to take the show to new and interesting places. I think both seem to have a genuine fondness for the series that comes through loud and clear. I've started watching some of the New Series episodes again, and aside from the OTT stuff, so far I've enjoyed each of them even more the second time around and am noticing more of the things that I think that RTD and SM did right.
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Post by relativetime on May 4, 2016 1:55:02 GMT
I think the former one could be the best example of the Bigness that seems to sometimes haunt the series (a more recent example being the use of four and a half billion where four and a half thousand probably would have easily sufficed for the purposes of underscoring The Doctor's profound determination). Kill the Moon bothers me because I'm sure I can hear science teachers groaning from here - no one seems to complain much about just pulling completely fabricated science out of your ear in sci-fi of course, but taking questionable liberties with established science is maybe another thing. Nothing wrong with kids being able to counter parental contentions that their favorite show is rotting their minds, with the idea that they might actually be learning something from it. That strikes me as part of the perennial appeal of perhaps historicals especially. Hence Kill the Moon isn't even allowed near my head canon, yet if the same premise had unfolded a little more sensibly with the moon of an uninhabited planet and had been witnessed mainly from a space station, I think it would probably be a favorite of mine and could have been twice as glorious visually. Spot on with your analysis of Kill the Moon! I'm one of the few people that actually didn't mind the story when it first aired - hell, I'd say I enjoyed it overall! It was just burdened with some shoddy science and a runtime that I think was just a bit too short for the kind of story the episode wanted to tell. Otherwise, on the strength of acting alone if nothing else, it was a pretty enjoyable episode - just not one I can really take seriously when I consider what exactly they do with the moon.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 5:23:34 GMT
Well he's on record as saying both that he thought series 9 would be his last and that he was involved in the search for finding his successor, and that they shouldn't pretend it wasn't a problem it was taking so long to replace him, because it was (a problem). I wouldn't be surprised if he actually wanted to leave after series 8, although I have no evidence for that, just my gut feel. By that time he had done four seasons across five years and two Doctors, very much like RTD. Do have a link? www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/moffat-on-successor-that-is-an-issue-one-im-actively-engaged-in-78459.htm
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Post by paulmorris7777 on May 4, 2016 7:29:12 GMT
There is nothing in that article that suggests he wanted to leave before series 10. And, its nice of him to blame the rugby for poor ratings, when he picks an chooses when to include iplayer views.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 9:49:58 GMT
There is nothing in that article that suggests he wanted to leave before series 10. And, its nice of him to blame the rugby for poor ratings, when he picks an chooses when to include iplayer views. Sorry, I thought you meant a link for the quote about it being a problem that they couldn't find a replacement and that he wouldn't leave until they did. There are numerous other articles where he stayes that he thought series 9 would be his last. I'll see if I can dig one out, although I am supposed to be working.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 10:24:47 GMT
There is nothing in that article that suggests he wanted to leave before series 10. And, its nice of him to blame the rugby for poor ratings, when he picks an chooses when to include iplayer views. The best match I can still find is this one www.digitalspy.com/tv/doctor-who/news/a775950/steven-moffat-thought-doctor-whos-2015-christmas-special-could-be-his-last-ever-episode/If you combine the two stories they paint a picture of a man who needs a break. I'm really hopeful the current hiatus will allow series 10 to be the best he's ever done, because it's clear that by the end of series 9 he was worn out, fed up and didn't want to do any more, but wasn't prepared to step down without a successor in place that he trusted.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on May 4, 2016 11:09:07 GMT
This makes very little sense. No one is forcing him to stay on. Especially, as the next episode will be Christmas 2016, and the next series in 2017. This gap would give the next showrunner plenty of time. Wasn't Xmas 2015 episde filmed in October? Moffat signed on for series 10 before Hellbents screening. I really don't understand the thinking behind any of it.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jun 10, 2016 18:22:02 GMT
It's amazing how unhappy people can be when their favourite show is currently a huge worldwide success. While it can perhaps get tiring, things exist for a reason: complaints against Moffat's run transcend more than just 'oh this is his way and I want it my way!'. The more detailed people out there do give legit criticisms of the show, and even people on here who have enjoyed his run do concede there are some hiccups, like the 50/50' nature of the constant retooling, tonal inconsistencies and even questions about if death actually means much of anything any more on the show. Doctor Who of all shows should not be using the 'turn your brain off' card and well, the popularity doesn't equal quality bit has already done its rounds so I won't regurgitate.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 10, 2016 18:24:42 GMT
It's amazing how unhappy people can be when their favourite show is currently a huge worldwide success. While it can perhaps get tiring, things exist for a reason: complaints against Moffat's run transcend more than just 'oh this is his way and I want it my way!'. The more detailed people out there do give legit criticisms of the show, and even people on here who have enjoyed his run do concede there are some hiccups, like the 50/50' nature of the constant retooling, tonal inconsistencies and even questions about if death actually means much of anything any more on the show. Doctor Who of all shows should not be using the 'turn your brain off' card and well, the popularity doesn't equal quality bit has already done its rounds so I won't regurgitate. Why change the show if it's popular among the vast majority? Popularity is an indicator of how much people find something of a good enough quality. Many of us may not like Transformers for instance but the box office shows that to many people they are good films. Personally, I think Doctor Who is a quality show and I don't think it has to make many changes until Chris Chibnall's era.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jun 10, 2016 18:35:38 GMT
While it can perhaps get tiring, things exist for a reason: complaints against Moffat's run transcend more than just 'oh this is his way and I want it my way!'. The more detailed people out there do give legit criticisms of the show, and even people on here who have enjoyed his run do concede there are some hiccups, like the 50/50' nature of the constant retooling, tonal inconsistencies and even questions about if death actually means much of anything any more on the show. Doctor Who of all shows should not be using the 'turn your brain off' card and well, the popularity doesn't equal quality bit has already done its rounds so I won't regurgitate. Why change the show if it's popular among the vast majority? Popularity is an indicator of how much people find something of a good enough quality. Many of us may not like Transformers for instance but the box office shows that to many people they are good films. Personally, I think Doctor Who is a quality show and I don't think it has to make many changes until Chris Chibnall's era. Popularity is only maybe made up of a tiny percentage of quality. There are a whole TARDIS load of reasons why something is successful beyond if it's any good or not, including timing, marketing, appeal, target demographic, necessity, cultural and social context and baggage to name a few. I'm not saying Moffat's era is bad by any means, but I'm just saying you can't just box off opposing views with a couple of blanket 'x likes this' remarks. If you like the show as is, awesome, no one denies you that right and more power to you, but discussion is a two way street and not having it would be more harmful than helpful.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 10, 2016 18:54:52 GMT
Why change the show if it's popular among the vast majority? Popularity is an indicator of how much people find something of a good enough quality. Many of us may not like Transformers for instance but the box office shows that to many people they are good films. Personally, I think Doctor Who is a quality show and I don't think it has to make many changes until Chris Chibnall's era. Popularity is only maybe made up of a tiny percentage of quality. There are a whole TARDIS load of reasons why something is successful beyond if it's any good or not, including timing, marketing, appeal, target demographic, necessity, cultural and social context and baggage to name a few. I'm not saying Moffat's era is bad by any means, but I'm just saying you can't just box off opposing views with a couple of blanket 'x likes this' remarks. If you like the show as is, awesome, no one denies you that right and more power to you, but discussion is a two way street and not having it would be more harmful than helpful. If the story's crap, the audience won't watch though. That's why independent films generally don't do very well - they strive to break the rules of storytelling and so mainstream audiences tend to find them hard to follow or just generally dislike the move from the traditional Hollywood three-act structure.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Jun 10, 2016 23:23:42 GMT
Its for people who have short attention spans. For soap fans. Viewers who fall in love with the leads. Viewers who can't differentiate between real life and make believe, who cry when the Doctor regenerates.
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Post by mark687 on Jun 10, 2016 23:32:28 GMT
Its for people who have short attention spans. For soap fans. Viewers who fall in love with the leads. Viewers who can't differentiate between real life and make believe, who cry when the Doctor regenerates. Serious question no malice intended:
What was the last episode of the programme that you actually enjoyed?
Regards
mark687
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