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Post by Whovitt on Jun 14, 2016 14:19:13 GMT
Sorry, I didn't think I'd have got everything right there (no one's pointed out any problems with the rest though, so I'm happy with most of the conclusions ). However, Macqueen-in-Beevers did say that the Doctor was going through bodies faster than he had, and that the Seventh Doctor was a new incarnation for him at the start of The Two Masters, didn't he? Wouldn't that mean that Macqueen's consciousness hadn't met that Doctor yet? Or maybe just forgot about that incarnation? Nope that's Beevers-in-Macqueen. When he meets the Doctor on the bridge of the Gorlan ship. Ah, right. Sorry, must have my Master's mixed up - I thought (incorrectly, it seems) it was Macqueen-in-Beevers in episode 1. I've only had the chance to listen to it once so far, so I'm sure you can forgive me for not having my head completely wrapped around it yet By the way, just thought I'd mention the story is brilliant! One of (if not THE) most gripping and exciting stories I've heard, loved every minute of it
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Post by elkawho on Jun 14, 2016 15:16:44 GMT
dorney you are absolutely brilliant. That was probably the most satisfying completion to a story arc that I have heard (or seen) in years. Thank you for that. The performances were outstanding as well. I love McQueen's Master more and more every time I hear him. Well, off to listen to the whole trilogy all over again.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2016 15:55:44 GMT
So let me get this straight: in the Master's timeline, Beevers (pre-zombification) is ambushed by Macqueen, zombified and sent to Terserus (or however it's spelt). Their minds are swapped and Beevers-in-Macqueen is allowed to go. At this point Beevers-in-Macqueen goes through the events of Vampire of the Mind, after which he becomes the general in the war in The Two Masters, where he is reinstated into his zombified body and sent back to his own time when the story finishes (presumably a lead in to The Deadly Assassin). Some incarnations later, Macqueen returns to Terserus and the Cult, who give him the task to kill Beevers. Macqueen fails to kill Beevers, resulting in the mind swap. After Beevers-in-Macqueen is set free, Macqueen-in-Beevers escapes to the events of And You Will Obey Me. Once this is over, he tracks down the Seventh Doctor to help him find Beevers-in-Macqueen. They succeed and put their minds back in their proper bodies and the rest of The Two Masters plays out (again). Is that right? If so, we now also know: 1. Macqueen is responisble for Beevers' zombification, which places The Two Masters and hence And You Will Obey Me somewhere between Frontier in Space and The Deadly Assassin for Beevers (as Beevers is a later incarnation than Delgado), as he obviously isn't a 'zombie' before Macqueen tracks him down (Macqueen also makes reference to the fact that a certain Chancellor is probably about to track down the newly zombified Beevers, presumably referencing Chancellor Goth from The Deadly Assassin). 2. Bearing in mind that Macqueen-in-Beevers hasn't met the Seventh Doctor yet (at the start of The Two Masters he mentions the Doctor having a new face), we can assume that these events are set before UNIT: Dominion, where he does know the Seventh Doctor (incidentally, Dominion is earlier in the Doctor's timeline, as he doesn't recognise Macqueen in Dominion, whereas he does in The Two Masters). Even though the Masters don't remember the events of this trilogy afterwards, they would have had any previous memories while the stories were taking place, so if Dominion had already taken place for Macqueen he would have recognised him as Macqueen-in-Beevers at the start of The Two Masters. 2.1. If this is the case, then these are the earliest Macqueen stories so far. 2.2. There must be another story where Macqueen meets the Seventh Doctor, where the Seventh Doctor knows who Macqueen is but Macqueen doesn't recognise the Doctor, otherwise he wouldn't know who the Doctor is during Dominion (anyone else confused yet ). 3. Macqueen mentions to Beevers that there were several other Masters he could have chosen, including 'the Snake'. This proves without doubt that this Master is post- Movie, placing him (somewhere) between Eric Roberts and Derek Jacobi, and could potentially (not definitely) have been a Time War Master (there could have been several). 3.1. There is obviously a point between The Movie and the Time War where the Time Lords resurrect the Master and give him a new set of regenerations, otherwise Macqueen couldn't exist after Roberts, and thus Jacobi and the rest couldn't exist after Macqueen. These points are only true if I've got the original sequence of events right. If not, I may have just wasted my last thirty or so minutes sorting it all out So, all in all, we've actually got a lot more spaces (I don't want to use the words 'gaps' or 'holes') in the Master's timeline. However it does mean that there could hopefully be plenty more stories to explain them (please please please!) Anything anyone wants to disagree with there? (I'm not claiming to be an expert on these matters ) Also, should I have posted this in the Master's Timeline thread? I'll let the post be moved if it's better off there The only amend I would suggest is 2.2 Only Beevers will forget these events, McQueen could well remember them (the latest incarnation normally does). So an extra meeting with 7 isn't required. Otherwise excellent summary.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2016 16:01:35 GMT
Finished it this morning, what a sublime piece of work.
Who would have thought you could cram that much exposition into one story and still have it move at such a pace. Hats off to author and Masters all.
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Post by icecreamdf on Jun 14, 2016 16:06:55 GMT
2. Bearing in mind that Macqueen-in-Beevers hasn't met the Seventh Doctor yet (at the start of2.2. There must be another story where Macqueen meets the Seventh Doctor, where the Seventh Doctor knows who Macqueen is but Macqueen doesn't recognise the Doctor, otherwise he wouldn't know who the Doctor is during Dominion (anyone else confused yet ). Don't forget that Macqueen would remember all of his previous incarnations. That means that he could recognize the Seventh Doctor from Survival (or Dust Breeding or Master). Presumably he forgot about those occassions in this episode because of all the crazy stuff that was happenning with time.
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dorney
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Post by dorney on Jun 14, 2016 16:08:33 GMT
2. Bearing in mind that Macqueen-in-Beevers hasn't met the Seventh Doctor yet (at the start of2.2. There must be another story where Macqueen meets the Seventh Doctor, where the Seventh Doctor knows who Macqueen is but Macqueen doesn't recognise the Doctor, otherwise he wouldn't know who the Doctor is during Dominion (anyone else confused yet ). Don't forget that Macqueen would remember all of his previous incarnations. That means that he could recognize the Seventh Doctor from Survival (or Dust Breeding or Master). Presumably he forgot about those occassions in this episode because of all the crazy stuff that was happenning with time. See my previous posts...
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Post by icecreamdf on Jun 14, 2016 16:11:13 GMT
This story was very good, if confusing. I especially loved Beevers playing the Macqueen Master. He absolutely nailed it, and it was obvious right from the beginning that something was up with him. I didn't notice anything wrong with him in And You Will Obey Me, so I'll have to relisten to that one. Now I'm just going to be confused as to what order to watch/listen to Master stories next time I go through them all. I guess The Two Masters would go after Frontier in Space, then Vampire of the Mind (or vice versa) and then And You Will Obey Me would go after Mastermind.
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Post by constonks on Jun 14, 2016 17:33:50 GMT
This story was very good, if confusing. I especially loved Beevers playing the Macqueen Master. He absolutely nailed it, and it was obvious right from the beginning that something was up with him. I didn't notice anything wrong with him in And You Will Obey Me, so I'll have to relisten to that one. Now I'm just going to be confused as to what order to watch/listen to Master stories next time I go through them all. I guess The Two Masters would go after Frontier in Space, then Vampire of the Mind (or vice versa) and then And You Will Obey Me would go after Mastermind. If you wanted to know the exact order of a chronological re-watch/re-listen, it would be something like this: (...) Frontier in Space The Two Masters (Part 3, Track 4-6 & Part 4, Track 2) Vampire of the Mind The Two Masters (Part 2 & Part 3, Track 7-9 & Part 4, Track 4-9) The Deadly Assassin (...) UNIT: Dominion [this is the only Macqueen story that is 100% before The Two Masters, but on a whim, I'd say all the Dark Eyes appearances are as well]The Two Masters (Part 1, Track 1 & Part 3, Track 2-6) ...And You Will Obey Me The Two Masters (Part 1 & Part 2 & Part 3, Track 7-9 & Part 4, Track 4-9) Utopia (...) Mastermind stars the Eighth Doctor version of Beevers (basically The Snake, as this story so eloquently puts it) and so comes somewhere before the Master gets his new Macqueen-Jacobi-Simm-Gomez regeneration cycle.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2016 20:23:54 GMT
This story was very good, if confusing. I especially loved Beevers playing the Macqueen Master. He absolutely nailed it, and it was obvious right from the beginning that something was up with him. I didn't notice anything wrong with him in And You Will Obey Me, so I'll have to relisten to that one. Now I'm just going to be confused as to what order to watch/listen to Master stories next time I go through them all. I guess The Two Masters would go after Frontier in Space, then Vampire of the Mind (or vice versa) and then And You Will Obey Me would go after Mastermind. If you wanted to know the exact order of a chronological re-watch/re-listen, it would be something like this: (...) Frontier in Space The Two Masters (Part 3, Track 4-6 & Part 4, Track 2) Vampire of the Mind The Two Masters (Part 2 & Part 3, Track 7-9 & Part 4, Track 4-9) The Deadly Assassin (...) UNIT: Dominion [this is the only Macqueen story that is 100% before The Two Masters, but on a whim, I'd say all the Dark Eyes appearances are as well]The Two Masters (Part 1, Track 1 & Part 3, Track 2-6) ...And You Will Obey Me The Two Masters (Part 1 & Part 2 & Part 3, Track 7-9 & Part 4, Track 4-9) Utopia (...) Mastermind stars the Eighth Doctor version of Beevers (basically The Snake, as this story so eloquently puts it) and so comes somewhere before the Master gets his new Macqueen-Jacobi-Simm-Gomez regeneration cycle. Ooh, I was thinking of trying to work all that out. Excellent work.
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Post by dasmaniac on Jun 14, 2016 20:42:18 GMT
So I wonder if the pre disfigured Beevers Master will appear in any future audios. He's got to appear in the Third Doctor Adventures and heck it'd be cool to have him pop up in the 4DA's.
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Post by mark687 on Jun 14, 2016 20:54:05 GMT
So I wonder if the pre disfigured Beevers Master will appear in any future audios. He's got to appear in the Third Doctor Adventures and heck it'd be cool to have him pop up in the 4DA's. Oh good thought and a very acceptable workaround IMO
Regards
mark687
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Post by kimalysong on Jun 14, 2016 21:28:42 GMT
I've only heard the first two parts so far. So Maqueen!Master is actually being played by Beevers. And Beevers! Master is being played by Maqueen. Beevers! Master stole Macqueen's Master's body not realizing he was stealing the body of his future self. I think that's it.
Okay my head is spinning right now!
I think I may listen to parts 1 & 2 again before moving on to parts 3 & 4.
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Post by elkawho on Jun 14, 2016 22:38:17 GMT
I found it amusing that The (McQueen in Beevers) Master thinks of himself as Holmes to The Doctor's Moriarty. I thought he liked being the villain.
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Post by CookieMaster on Jun 15, 2016 5:53:33 GMT
So I wonder if the pre disfigured Beevers Master will appear in any future audios. He's got to appear in the Third Doctor Adventures and heck it'd be cool to have him pop up in the 4DA's. I'm certainly hoping so, the cover art will be interesting to say the least
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Post by icecreamdf on Jun 15, 2016 5:56:33 GMT
So I wonder if the pre disfigured Beevers Master will appear in any future audios. He's got to appear in the Third Doctor Adventures and heck it'd be cool to have him pop up in the 4DA's. Now that they've established that there was a predisfigured Beevers Master, I wouldn't mind him popping up in the Third Doctor Adventures, though I would still prefer a recast Delgado Master. Unless he meets the Doctor out of order, I don't think he can really show up in the Fourth Doctor Adventures, since Sarah Jane would be preent in any story before The Deadly Assassin.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Jun 15, 2016 7:50:29 GMT
So I wonder if the pre disfigured Beevers Master will appear in any future audios. He's got to appear in the Third Doctor Adventures and heck it'd be cool to have him pop up in the 4DA's. He was secretly in "Ambassadors of Death", which actually explains a mystery about that story (who kills Cyril Shaps with an isotope).
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Post by kfbate on Jun 15, 2016 17:56:03 GMT
About ten minutes in and it sounding wonderful looking forward to extending listening whilst working through the night
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 4:45:13 GMT
So I wonder if the pre disfigured Beevers Master will appear in any future audios. He's got to appear in the Third Doctor Adventures and heck it'd be cool to have him pop up in the 4DA's. He was secretly in "Ambassadors of Death", which actually explains a mystery about that story (who kills Cyril Shaps with an isotope). That would make a great Short Trip special release.
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Post by icecreamdf on Jun 16, 2016 5:10:50 GMT
Now that I think about it, shouldn't the pre-Deadly Assassin technically have been played by Peter Pratt. I thought the Eye of Harmony was what transformed him into Geoffrey Beevers.
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Post by omega on Jun 16, 2016 5:25:07 GMT
Now that I think about it, shouldn't the pre-Deadly Assassin technically have been played by Peter Pratt. I thought the Eye of Harmony was what transformed him into Geoffrey Beevers. Maybe it took a while for his voice to change from Peter Pratt to Geoffrey Beevers. He was burned when Goth found him, and the energy from the Eye of Harmony was at least able to restore his voice to how it was pre-burning as well as stave off death. There's also the audios with the Fourth Doctor, including Light at the End, set between Deadly Assassin and Keeper of Traken.
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