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Post by omega on Mar 9, 2016 4:22:45 GMT
I don't know Hallie from the show but this episode didn't seem very sympathetic to her. Or I guess it's hard for me to be sympathetic to someone who would willingly hurt or trick someone you supposedly love. In this case she put a spell on David. Now even Hallie realized how empty it was to have David love her only because of the spell. That what she got was a shell not the real David. Maybe at this point I could have forgiven her if she let him go but then she decides no one else can have him but her. I know love is cruel and it can hurt to be rejected by someone you have feelings for. And David was a bit harsh with her at one point. But that's still no excuse for what she did. Of course this being said Hallie was the perfect soap opera villain. Hallie is under the influence of an obsession demon during the story though. She's spent the last decade it seems hunting demons with the head of a reanimated warlock for company. That can't be healthy. Demon hunting also doesn't do much for your social life, watch Supernatural to see how messed up Sam and Dean have become (now a Dark Shadows/Supernatural crossover seems very appealing). During the Halloween scene in the mine she forces herself upon David, almost forcing him to get, er, reacquainted with her. Hallie's situation has made her almost one-note in terms of motivation and ambition (performed excellently) and it will be interesting to see how that factors into Bloodline. I predict she'll react somehow to the "Speak now for forever hold your peace" part of the wedding.
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Post by silverednickle on Mar 9, 2016 13:49:13 GMT
Totally forgot to post this, but it seems Dr Julia Hoffman is back in Collinwood at the end of Tainted Love.
"Did you see Julia? She looks so-" Ugh, David, why did you have to interrupt Amy?
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Post by kimalysong on Mar 9, 2016 14:07:45 GMT
I haven't seen the original series either and this might be coming off from Carriage of The Damned, but I actually felt the episode did allow the audience to emphasise and understand Hallie and her actions, monstrous and destructive as they were. She'd experienced a great trauma as a child and never gotten over it and her efforts in dealing with it - becoming a demon hunter (essentinally becoming 'David' to deal) and her methods of dispatching her enemies, her sex life (not that there's anything wrong with a woman having casual sex) and being able to bond and forgive Gerald Stiles so quickly were very telling. It seems that Hallie didn't really have an environment to deal with the trauma, as well? While I do know that David wasn't told about the various supernatural going ons, I'd imagine that his family and a non too aware Maggie did their best to make sure he moved on somewhat from it - Hallie, it seems, was left to her own devices and sadly grew up to be who she was. I feel Hallie was an object of pity as well as horror. Being under the influence of the obsession demon is a good point. But a lot of characters in Dark Shadows seems to have experienced great trauma (including Amy & David). I am not really sure if that in itself makes me sympathize with her character.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2016 0:10:07 GMT
I haven't seen the original series either and this might be coming off from Carriage of The Damned, but I actually felt the episode did allow the audience to emphasise and understand Hallie and her actions, monstrous and destructive as they were. She'd experienced a great trauma as a child and never gotten over it and her efforts in dealing with it - becoming a demon hunter (essentinally becoming 'David' to deal) and her methods of dispatching her enemies, her sex life (not that there's anything wrong with a woman having casual sex) and being able to bond and forgive Gerald Stiles so quickly were very telling. It seems that Hallie didn't really have an environment to deal with the trauma, as well? While I do know that David wasn't told about the various supernatural going ons, I'd imagine that his family and a non too aware Maggie did their best to make sure he moved on somewhat from it - Hallie, it seems, was left to her own devices and sadly grew up to be who she was. I feel Hallie was an object of pity as well as horror. Being under the influence of the obsession demon is a good point. But a lot of characters in Dark Shadows seems to have experienced great trauma (including Amy & David). I am not really sure if that in itself makes me sympathize with her character. I love Amy - I really do - and I don't want to dismiss her significant sufferings, but Hallie was a young girl who was murdered and who remembered it. That's a whole other ball park. Also, didn't Carriage of the Damned have that it that history was changed and the murder never actually happened but both David and Hallie recollected it? Also, how much was the demon's influence and how much was Hallie we'll probably never really know for sure (Hallie was concious of his influence, after all and she was free from further influence once she claimed his power, after all.).
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Post by omega on Mar 10, 2016 0:26:24 GMT
Being under the influence of the obsession demon is a good point. But a lot of characters in Dark Shadows seems to have experienced great trauma (including Amy & David). I am not really sure if that in itself makes me sympathize with her character. I love Amy - I really do - and I don't want to dismiss her significant sufferings, but Hallie was a young girl who was murdered and who remembered it. That's a whole other ball park. Also, didn't Carriage of the Damned have that it that history was changed and the murder never actually happened but both David and Hallie recollected it? Also, how much was the demon's influence and how much was Hallie we'll probably never really know for sure (Hallie was concious of his influence, after all and she was free from further influence once she claimed his power, after all.). With regards to David and Hallie's death, I think that was in an aborted timeline in the TV show, the fall of Collinwood I believe. Barnabas and Julia undid it, but David and Hallie still remembered, much like Cisco in the new Flash TV show (there he has the power to see alternate timelines after Barry has used time travel to change the past). I'd imagine that the Rosier was subtly influencing Hallie, and by the time she claimed his power she'd become the embodiment of obsession and was too far gone. She actually killed herself instead of facing up to life with David and Amy together. Hallie had become the thing she was fighting. Having a reanimated head of a warlock who, in another sequence of events killer her, being her constant companion for nearly ten years can't have helped (Carriage of the Damned did imply that Gerard Stiles wasn't the monster he was made out to be though). While she got closure over that, David had the support from his family to recover from his memories of the incident, which left him far more mentally stable than Hallie turned out. IMO Carriage of the Damned was a far better representation of Hallie as a character than Tainted Love was.
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Post by barnabaslives on Mar 10, 2016 1:51:11 GMT
I love Amy - I really do - and I don't want to dismiss her significant sufferings, but Hallie was a young girl who was murdered and who remembered it. That's a whole other ball park. Also, didn't Carriage of the Damned have that it that history was changed and the murder never actually happened but both David and Hallie recollected it? Yes, and IIRC, Hallie in Carriage of the Damned was eloquent enough about what a horrible thing it is to remember a death that she did and didn't actually have. Having a reanimated head of a warlock who, in another sequence of events killer her, being her constant companion for nearly ten years can't have helped (Carriage of the Damned did imply that Gerard Stiles wasn't the monster he was made out to be though). While she got closure over that, David had the support from his family to recover from his memories of the incident, which left him far more mentally stable than Hallie turned out. IMO Carriage of the Damned was a far better representation of Hallie as a character than Tainted Love was. It's a good point about her obsession with Stiles' head - not a good thing, but it seems to arise out of her experience and also it seems sort of hard to feel assured that the head won't be the focus of some evil influence anytime after Carriage of the Damned, I suppose. David I'm not sure about, he's had further potential traumas like repeatedly being manipulated by sinister forces, but maybe his supernatural parentage has given him help to get through this whereas the supernatural has not been so kind to Hallie, Amy, Sabrina and others?
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Post by omega on Mar 10, 2016 2:15:27 GMT
David I'm not sure about, he's had further potential traumas like repeatedly being manipulated by sinister forces, but maybe his supernatural parentage has given him help to get through this whereas the supernatural has not been so kind to Hallie, Amy, Sabrina and others? David has had the support from his family and a stable home situation to help him recover, as has Carolyn. Elizabeth is good at offering emotional support. Even Maggie and Victoria had Barnabas looking out for them, to Angelique's annoyance. Amy, Sabrina, Hallie and the others haven't had that, so they haven't coped as well. Windcliff isn't exactly the best place to recover, what with Julia Hoffman trying to cover up Barnabas's transgressions. David's supernatural lineage might be one factor in what draws things to happen that him as well as his resilience, although simply getting involved with Collinwood and the Collins family ends to lead to people experiencing bad things. Curiosity and Collinwood tend to have a tragic relationship. Willie Loomis learned the hard way why he shouldn't have gone after the Collins jewels in 210/211.
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Post by Trace on Mar 10, 2016 2:46:00 GMT
I feel Hallie was an object of pity as well as horror. Being under the influence of the obsession demon is a good point. But a lot of characters in Dark Shadows seems to have experienced great trauma (including Amy & David). I am not really sure if that in itself makes me sympathize with her character. I think you would sympathize with her more if you had seen her entire storyline from the OS...and then followed up with Carriage of the Damned BEFORE Tainted Love. She is clearly another one of those DS characters with more shades of grey than black/white. Also, let's face it...David kinda used her. Yes, she threw herself at him, but he was not victimized here. He was a willing participant, at least when it happened. I'm sure that AFTER, he was full of regret. But it was callous nonetheless. Very similar to Barnabas with Angelique. I loved this story...I thought all three leads turned in bravo performances. Kathleen Cody, as the main focus, was amazing. Now, about that ending....hmmmm....all I can say is 'thank God this is Dark Shadows.' Endings don't have to be!!
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Post by kimalysong on Mar 10, 2016 2:55:36 GMT
Being under the influence of the obsession demon is a good point. But a lot of characters in Dark Shadows seems to have experienced great trauma (including Amy & David). I am not really sure if that in itself makes me sympathize with her character. I think you would sympathize with her more if you had seen her entire storyline from the OS...and then followed up with Carriage of the Damned BEFORE Tainted Love. She is clearly another one of those DS characters with more shades of grey than black/white. Also, let's face it...David kinda used her. Yes, she threw herself at him, but he was not victimized here. He was a willing participant, at least when it happened. I'm sure that AFTER, he was full of regret. But it was callous nonetheless. Very similar to Barnabas with Angelique. I loved this story...I thought all three leads turned in bravo performances. Kathleen Cody, as the main focus, was amazing. Now, about that ending....hmmmm....all I can say is 'thank God this is Dark Shadows.' Endings don't have to be!! Oh I fully acknowledge that I am only basing my opinion on Tainted Love which is why I said this story didn't make me feel sympathetic to her. But my opinion may definitely change in the future. I am open to that. But Hailee definitely went way too far in this story for me!
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Post by omega on Mar 10, 2016 3:24:18 GMT
I think you would sympathize with her more if you had seen her entire storyline from the OS...and then followed up with Carriage of the Damned BEFORE Tainted Love. She is clearly another one of those DS characters with more shades of grey than black/white. Also, let's face it...David kinda used her. Yes, she threw herself at him, but he was not victimized here. He was a willing participant, at least when it happened. I'm sure that AFTER, he was full of regret. But it was callous nonetheless. Very similar to Barnabas with Angelique. I loved this story...I thought all three leads turned in bravo performances. Kathleen Cody, as the main focus, was amazing. Now, about that ending....hmmmm....all I can say is 'thank God this is Dark Shadows.' Endings don't have to be!! Oh I fully acknowledge that I am only basing my opinion on Tainted Love which is why I said this story didn't make me feel sympathetic to her. But my opinion may definitely change in the future. I am open to that. But Hailee definitely went way to far in this story for me! You might say she was obsessed with David...
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Post by Trace on Mar 10, 2016 3:32:45 GMT
Just a little trivia for those who don't know: Rosier is the patron demon of "tainted love"! I looked him up--don't think I knew that the first time around. I guess I thought he was Daniel Collard's creation! Nice little tie-in with real life demonology!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2016 7:34:19 GMT
I think you would sympathize with her more if you had seen her entire storyline from the OS...and then followed up with Carriage of the Damned BEFORE Tainted Love. She is clearly another one of those DS characters with more shades of grey than black/white. Also, let's face it...David kinda used her. Yes, she threw herself at him, but he was not victimized here. He was a willing participant, at least when it happened. I'm sure that AFTER, he was full of regret. But it was callous nonetheless. Very similar to Barnabas with Angelique. I loved this story...I thought all three leads turned in bravo performances. Kathleen Cody, as the main focus, was amazing. Now, about that ending....hmmmm....all I can say is 'thank God this is Dark Shadows.' Endings don't have to be!! Oh I fully acknowledge that I am only basing my opinion on Tainted Love which is why I said this story didn't make me feel sympathetic to her. But my opinion may definitely change in the future. I am open to that. But Hailee definitely went way too far in this story for me! I feel we might have gone off-track a little here with the purpose of these threads. Kim's criticism of the tale and Hallie's character is a valid one - these tales are meant to follow on from Bloodlust which was designed as a significant jumping on point. While many of us have history with Hallie either through the original series or Carriage of the Damned, listeners like Kim are approaching her for the first time and if the character is percieved as particularly unsympathetic without knowledge of that history, it's a failing of the story. I'd like to apologise if my comments were a little too fan-ish - I really did feel sorry for Hallie! But, that's not what these threads are about - it's about new and seasoned Dark Shadows listeners coming together and experiencing these tales.
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Post by kimalysong on Mar 10, 2016 8:56:16 GMT
Thank you very much michaelhocking but no need to apologize, I very much understand feeling passionate and wanting to defend characters you care about. I am also not really saying the story did anything wrong I really liked it. I thought Haille was a great foil to Amy & David in this story and I really loved the developing relationship between Amy & David.
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bobod
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Post by bobod on Mar 10, 2016 9:18:04 GMT
Oh I fully acknowledge that I am only basing my opinion on Tainted Love which is why I said this story didn't make me feel sympathetic to her. But my opinion may definitely change in the future. I am open to that. But Hailee definitely went way too far in this story for me! I feel we might have gone off-track a little here with the purpose of these threads. Kim's criticism of the tale and Hallie's character is a valid one - these tales are meant to follow on from Bloodlust which was designed as a significant jumping on point. While many of us have history with Hallie either through the original series or Carriage of the Damned, listeners like Kim are approaching her for the first time and if the character is percieved as particularly unsympathetic without knowledge of that history, it's a failing of the story. I'd like to apologise if my comments were a little too fan-ish - I really did feel sorry for Hallie! But, that's not what these threads are about - it's about new and seasoned Dark Shadows listeners coming together and experiencing these tales. I've found all the discussion interesting though - it's conversation inspired by listening to and thinking about the audio.
It's also intriguing to see (people I think are all) people who don't watch the TV show discussing characters based on what they know of them from the audios, with just a smattering of TV backstory knowledge.
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Post by Trace on Mar 11, 2016 3:23:00 GMT
I agree. I love to read the discussion, with ALL the viewpoints of fans of both OS and audios, AND the new fans who have only experienced the audios. I don't think, Michael, that we were getting away from the point of the threads at all. It's not a failing of the story if it doesnt elicit empathy for a character. Everyone reacts differently to ALL characters, and their reaction to (and identification with) certain characters may or may not change with each future listener experience with that character.
By the way, I didn't think you sounded "fan-ish" at all. I felt sorry for Hallie too.
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bobod
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Post by bobod on Mar 11, 2016 9:34:47 GMT
I also don't think it's a "failing of the story" if someone who listens just to Tainted Love reacts differently to someone who listens to Carriage of the Damned and Tainted Love and both differently to someone who watched Hallie in the TV show and then listed to Carriage of the Damned and Tainted Love. It's very interesting if different people with different knowledge sets have different reactions. I don't think one shared reaction is what's wanted from these things. And then one can go back and re-experience and review and perhaps react differently. As I said above, I heard Hallie in Carriage differently after I'd heard Tainted Love. There were subtleties set up in there that I didn't pick up on until they had been underlined by Tainted Love.
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Post by silverednickle on Mar 14, 2016 14:25:04 GMT
Thanks for reminding me to look up Rosier, Trace. I usually listen to audios while out on a run or driving, both of which aren't the best time to stop and look something up. I felt like I had heard the name of Rosier before- from demonology to Harry Potter, it's been referenced a few times over. I love it when these authors add in those little details, connecting little bits to either Dark Shadows or other mythologies, even if I need a quick google search to get the nod.
I do agree MichaelHocking. As much as I have seen the series through a few times and previous audios, it needed a little more fleshing out of Hallie within this audio if they wanted fans, particularly those new from Bloodlust or even just very old fans who happened not have seen or heard from Hallie in a while (it's been about 45 years since Hallie was on the show). As someone interested in stories more so than characters, I was happy to see how Hallie and Amy, who were treated similarly in the show (young girls living at Collinwood and being possessed alongside David from ghosts from the 19th century) are branching apart in the audios. It's almost like seeing parallel time within this time band. However Hallie doesn't seem sympathetic enough. Sure, there are notions of her drinking and sort of seeming not to really have much of a purpose other than her desire for David and determination to defeat Rosier while waiting around for months, but even that didn't always make her sympathetic. Perhaps a little more fleshing out of her early on would have made all understand where she was coming from in the second half of the audio.
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Post by lurkerintheshadows on Apr 24, 2016 17:12:47 GMT
I was surprised by the direction taken with Hallie in this production, and for a while kept hoping it would be the demon's influence and that the 'real' Hallie would be released. But as events progressed I found myself rather enjoying the parallels between Hallie and other characters. Hallie was on the show when I started to watch it, so she, and then Carrie (Kathy Cody's 1840 role) were the original DS plucky teen girl to me. But reading about the show and then starting to catch up on the earlier episodes, I saw that she was filling the role vacated by Amy when Denise Nickerson left. So it's a strong touch to show Amy and Hallie as almost flip sides of the same character - Amy with her natural supernatural abilities which she tries to keep in check, attempting to escape from her haunted past, and Hallie deliberately honing her supernatural skills and running full tilt at the monsters rather than letting them come find her.
And throughout the story - whose 'episodic' feel and months long arc I enjoyed, for the soap opera feel it added, as well as yet another variation in the style of presentation we've had in this run of releases - we saw Hallie as a reflection of more than one woman in David's life, as she seemed to embody elements of Amy and also Laura, who had tried to use magic to lure the young David into a 'perfect' relationship, albeit as a supernatural mother and son in Laura's case. And then, by the end, it seemed that David has found himself with his own version of Angelique.
It's great to hear that Kathy had such a strong hand in shaping her role, and my worry that Hallie would be written out with this one has been assuaged. I'd certainly like to see Hallie, evil ghost or living demon hunter, teamed up with the reanimated head of Gerard for an adventure or two.
Other things I enjoyed, were David's impersonation of his father - a tiny but lovely moment and one where Louis Edmond's could clearly be imagined on the end of the phone - the genuinely heart-rending return of Deputy Hanley (I wonder if he's related to Dorcas Hanley, her murdered daughter, or wicked old Evan Hanley?), and the unexpected voices of new and old cast members, cementing the post-Bloodlust Collinsport environment. And what exactly *has* happened to Julia? I suspect we might find out soon... (Funnily enough, having seen Michelle Gomez on twitter video the other day, the cheekbones, nostrils and large eyes - and large personality - made me think, 'Now if I was casting Julia for a new TV version of the series...')
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Post by omega on Nov 11, 2016 8:56:36 GMT
I've got an idea about Julia's unspecified condition. An article outlining future storylines mentions Adam contracts an illness. Julia cures him, but takes on the illness herself.
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Post by omega on Jul 21, 2017 11:01:02 GMT
It's struck me that Hallie aged quickly. I know it's a standard soap opera trope, but hear me out. She's in her early teens at most during the Gerard Stiles arc in the final present day Main Time Band storyline of the Original Series (1970), but she's a young woman by Carriage of the Damned, which takes place in 1974, about nine or ten years before this story. Clearly I'm overthinking it, but is some ghost putting something into Mrs Johnson's boiled dinners?
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