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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2016 8:52:53 GMT
How do we feel about them? Do we love or hate them? Do we feel as though they work better for protagonists, antagonists, both or neither?
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Post by omega on Jun 14, 2016 9:35:52 GMT
I don't mind story arcs, as long as the characters like Doctor and companion(s) are consistent with how they have been portrayed in previous stories. Pacing is important, and you need to know when to end it. The Hex arc suffered from going on too long, especially when he came back for Afterlife and the 2014 trilogy. The tricky bit is balancing building things up and keeping the individual stories accessible. Again, the Hex arc relied on a relatively large number of releases for backstory when it hit the Elder Gods trilogy in 2012 (the last story of which was important for context for Afterlife and the 2014 trilogy).
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Post by acousticwolf on Jun 14, 2016 9:55:06 GMT
Generally I don't mind story arcs but unfortunately they just tend to go on too long and become tedious. Dark Shadows (TV series) was terrible for that - after about 20 'arc' episodes I found myself wanting to get to the end to start the next one. I also prefer story arcs to be complete stories rather than something "tacked" onto the end of a (seemingly) unrelated storyline. I find the latest Torchwood audios suffer a bit from this, you have a great story and then it's "... oh, it was the Committee all along ...". I'd prefer the whole 'arc' story to be about the Committee rather than 5 minutes at the end.
Cheers
Tony
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jun 14, 2016 10:49:09 GMT
It does always depend on how its done and what show its for.
Deep Space Nine has one of the best overarcing arc plots around, It drops bits in here and there and just grows naturally from it.
Lost on the other hand was making it up as it went along, which ruined some great moments.
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Post by jasonward on Jun 14, 2016 12:10:19 GMT
I guess people know my views on arcs well, I seem to post about them it seems every other month. I really don't like them, not because they can't be done well, as has been said Deep Space Nine did it's arc really well, the Arc was in effect the air the series breathed, there was no sense in which it felt tacked onto stories, the arc was for ever moving on, and stories happened in it.
But most arcs are not done at all well, either being tacked onto a story at it's end, like Torchwood has done in a few of its recent stories, or like the X-Files and the alien story arc just last way too long and become mind numbingly boring and predictable.
Basically, arcs can be OK, but they are so often not, they should be used with great care and occasionally.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2016 12:17:16 GMT
I guess people know my views on arcs well, I seem to post about them it seems every other month. I really don't like them, not because they can't be done well, as has been said Deep Space Nine did it's arc really well, the Arc was in effect the air the series breathed, there was no sense in which it felt tacked onto stories, the arc was for ever moving on, and stories happened in it. But most arcs are not done at all well, either being tacked onto a story at it's end, like Torchwood has done in a few of its recent stories, or like the X-Files and the alien story arc just last way too long and become mind numbingly boring and predictable. Basically, arcs can be OK, but they are so often not, they should be used with great care and occasionally. 100%. If you don't have an end-game you shouldn't be writing arcs. Carter on the X-Files clearly never had and still doesn't have an end. Torchwood had endings but they never felt developed outside of Children Of Earth. The Gray story was facile and uninvolving. I didn't care about him and Jack when series regulars were dying in better stand alone eps. I like the way some of Who handled arcs. Bad Wolf made sense as Rose was sending her own name through her timeline. This year though the constant hybrid namedrops didn't make sense. It was just clunkily using the word hybrid and winking to the audience every other ep to say "here's the theme". I didn't like that in a series which I mostly adored.
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Post by chrisscorkscrew on Jun 14, 2016 12:32:44 GMT
In the main, I'm really not a fan of arcs.
Contained stories are complete thoughts - a beginning, a middle and an end. The idea of imposing an 'over' story on top of these individual tales leaves them feeling unfinished, and can detract from the whole point of a story (for example, a story which ends on a high note being tailed by a short scene of impending doom and completely spoiling the effect of the story).
The pay off of an arc is also often not worth it - the little things which have been niggling at you all series turn out to be something that could have been told in its own right at the start of the final 'arc' episode, and really isn't half as clever as the writer thinks it is anyway.
Yes, arcs have worked well in some series, particularly when the finale has matched the hype and expectations, but in my view, they are often just a way for the Head Writer to massively promote and build up enthusiasm about the finale episode(s) he will be writing by impinging on the stories of all the other writers just because he can.
Chriss C.
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Post by christmastrenzalore on Jun 14, 2016 15:16:26 GMT
I love a good story arc, but it seems like now so many shows are about the arc, and episodic story telling is becoming a rarity. Continuity used to be something you could really geek out over, but now that so many shows are stream-able, less of them are tied to a status quo that you can play around with, to do interesting stand alone stories.
Some shows like say "Better Call Saul", are all about one long journey, but Doctor Who conceptually is really built for episodic story telling. New location, new cast, new situation, EVEN the lead character and side-kick as suspect to change. So invariably, most of it's story arcs have to focus around space-time villains/phenomenon. The Master, Daleks, Cyber-men, time Lords, Silence, Cracks in Time, prophecy etc. And sometimes the nod to these arcs can feel very token and distracting, to the point that I'd prefer they didn't bother (sometimes, not always).
What I love about Big Finish, is that even when there is an arc, they really treat every adventure like an island.
One of the shows that I think strikes a brilliant balance between episodic story telling and arcs is Adventure Time. Because it's plotting is so idiosyncratic, it allows for a wide range of stories that are character based, conceptual, or just straight up comedy, while also seeding stories that might not be relevant for another 2 Seasons, building on the lore organically. It lends a great deal of unpredictability to the stories.
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Post by muckypup on Jun 14, 2016 16:12:30 GMT
I like an arc, but not one that goes on too long.
hex is the perfect example, he should not have come back for afterlife. It spoilt what was a good story arc. dark eyes too was a case where the story arc went on too long and the resolution felt hollow.
you need to work towards a definite end game, and let the listener know that it will be resolved in few episodes.
the worst offender ever for poor story arc-ing was LOST. Tease, Tease, Tease and never have any payoff.
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Post by omega on Jun 15, 2016 0:44:53 GMT
The key aspect of an arc are the developments and the endgame. If a writer doesn't have an ending in mind, then it risks going on for long enough to make people lose interest. There does need to be some leeway when changes need to be made either due to actors not being available or other outside factors like production strikes, viewer reception and real life events (the 2007 writers strike shortened a lot of shows being produced at the time). The payoff needs to meet up to the hype within reason. Viewers can feel cheated if the characters behave inconsistently or need to grab the Idiot Ball to progress the arc (one the other end of the scale bad guys who appear invincible and too need to grasp the Idiot Ball to give the protagonists a win aren't always a hit with viewers).
Pacing is important in order to maintain viewer interest while advancing the arc. The latest season of The Flash faltered in it's second half due to when the identity of Zoom, the Big Bad, was revealed. Bad or uninteresting filler can kill off interest and seem like padding to fill out the season, especially when some shows now have 23 and 24 episode seasons.
The developments within the arc and characters in them need to remain consistent within the logic of the world it is in, as well as with previous continuity. Today especially viewers are eagle-eyed in spotting internal inconsistencies and keen to point them out. Not every show can claim "a wizard did it".
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 16, 2016 20:33:21 GMT
Personally, I feel story arcs work better for U.S. Drama due to the length of time they are on TV. U.S. Dramas need to be more serialised otherwise they can grow tedious (case in point, as much as I enjoyed it at the time, Agents of SHIELD Season One). UK Dramas, on the other hand, tend to work better with more of a 'monster of the week' structure due to their generally short nature.
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Post by mrperson on Jun 17, 2016 18:36:17 GMT
How do we feel about them? Do we love or hate them? Do we feel as though they work better for protagonists, antagonists, both or neither? Who: I like them if BF does them, because then they're done right.* I do not like the way Moffatt does them, because they are set-up excellently (usually) and then just splinter into nonsense. One main issue I take with arcs, in general, is that they have a tendency to take up too much time in each individual story. Done right, they should be brief hints that aren't the driving force for every episode. (S5's arc in the reboot was set up perfectly in my opinion). But when they're done wrong, writers end up burning valuable time on them in each episode and you get less space for the individual story. Basically, they should last a season at most and they shouldn't be prominent in any individual episode until you reach the end of the season. *I'm not as critical of the Divergent arc as I might have been, had BF been left alone, but it's my understanding that they basically had to pull the plug earlier - necessarily changing things - given the reboot. *Hex With the exception of them giving him the Rory treatment. Oh, just kidding, he's back. He lost his memories. Oh wait, no he didn't, those are back too. And now he lives happily ever after! Awww. Nope. Not good for me. Should've left him dead after making his sacrifice; perhaps, that might even be something that would help explain the shift from dark manipulative seven to a lighter eight who just wants to bang around the place rather than track down Gods From Before Time, etc.
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Post by mrperson on Jun 17, 2016 18:40:35 GMT
I guess people know my views on arcs well, I seem to post about them it seems every other month. I really don't like them, not because they can't be done well, as has been said Deep Space Nine did it's arc really well, the Arc was in effect the air the series breathed, there was no sense in which it felt tacked onto stories, the arc was for ever moving on, and stories happened in it. But most arcs are not done at all well, either being tacked onto a story at it's end, like Torchwood has done in a few of its recent stories, or like the X-Files and the alien story arc just last way too long and become mind numbingly boring and predictable. Basically, arcs can be OK, but they are so often not, they should be used with great care and occasionally. 100%. If you don't have an end-game you shouldn't be writing arcs. Carter on the X-Files clearly never had and still doesn't have an end. Torchwood had endings but they never felt developed outside of Children Of Earth. The Gray story was facile and uninvolving. I didn't care about him and Jack when series regulars were dying in better stand alone eps. I like the way some of Who handled arcs. Bad Wolf made sense as Rose was sending her own name through her timeline. This year though the constant hybrid namedrops didn't make sense. It was just clunkily using the word hybrid and winking to the audience every other ep to say "here's the theme". I didn't like that in a series which I mostly adored. Fully agree. Ditto "mystery girl" from S7. Ditto "am I a good man" and/or "Clara, do you still like me?" from S8. Well, that was one arc. The other S8 arc that drove me insane was Either I didn't care (S7, S9) or it just plain didn't make sense. I mean, he's going to wonder whether he's a good man after 2,000+ years saving the planet/galaxy/universe/multi-verse? After spending 700ish years in what he had no reason to doubt was his very last body, again defending a planet and the universe? Maybe it made sense for a regeneration story, but not throughout a season. I think they should only do arcs when someone thinks up a really good reason to have one. Since S5, there's been one forced into every single season.
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