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Post by paulmorris7777 on Jul 1, 2016 10:51:20 GMT
Robert Holmes has introduced us to The Third Doctor in Spearhead From Space. He brought us The Master in Terror of the Autons. Holmes wrote Carnival of Monsters and The Time Warrior. Script Editor for three years. Sometimes re-writing complete scripts.
Steven Moffat introduced us to The Eleventh Doctor in The Eleventh Hour. He brought us Missy "in" Dark Waters. Moffat wrote Blink and Lets Kill Hitler. Showrunner for seven years. Co-writing several scripts.
And, that's only Doctor Who.
LET BATTLE COMMENCE!
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Post by jasonward on Jul 1, 2016 11:07:28 GMT
Robert Holmes wrote:
The Krotons The Space Pirates Spearhead from Space Terror of the Autons Carnival of Monsters The Time Warrior The Ark in Space (from a story by John Lucarotti) Pyramids of Mars (from a story by Lewis Greifer) The Brain of Morbius (from a story by Terrance Dicks) The Deadly Assassin The Talons of Weng-Chiang The Sun Makers The Ribos Operation The Power of Kroll The Caves of Androzani The Two Doctors The Mysterious Planet The Ultimate Foe (first episode only)
Steven Moffat wrote:
"The Empty Child" / "The Doctor Dances" (2005) "The Girl in the Fireplace" (2006) "Blink" (2007) "Time Crash" (Children in Need mini-episode, 2007) "Silence in the Library" / "Forest of the Dead" (2008) "The Eleventh Hour" (2010) "The Beast Below" (2010) "The Time of Angels" / "Flesh and Stone" (2010) "The Pandorica Opens" / "The Big Bang" (2010) "A Christmas Carol" (2010) "Space" / "Time" (Comic Relief mini-episodes, 2011) "The Impossible Astronaut" / "Day of the Moon" (2011) "A Good Man Goes to War" (2011) "Let's Kill Hitler" (2011) "The Wedding of River Song" (2011) "The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe" (2011) "Asylum of the Daleks" (2012) "The Angels Take Manhattan" (2012) "The Snowmen" (2012) "The Bells of Saint John" (2013) "The Name of the Doctor" (2013) "The Night of the Doctor" (mini-episode, 2013) "The Day of the Doctor" (2013) "The Time of the Doctor" (2013) "Deep Breath" (2014) "Into the Dalek" (co-written with Phil Ford, 2014) "Listen" (2014) "Time Heist" (co-written with Stephen Thompson, 2014) "The Caretaker" (co-written with Gareth Roberts, 2014) "Dark Water" / "Death in Heaven" (2014) "Last Christmas" (2014) "The Magician's Apprentice" / "The Witch's Familiar" (2015) "The Girl Who Died" (co-written with Jamie Mathieson, 2015) "The Zygon Inversion" (co-written with Peter Harness, 2015) "Heaven Sent" (2015) "Hell Bent" (2015) "The Husbands of River Song" (2015)
Source for info Wikipedia
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 2,849
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Post by aztec on Jul 1, 2016 18:09:55 GMT
Hmm...I'm honestly not sure,wanted to vote for both but I can't . I haven't seen all the episodes by either of them, but I think Holmes's stories were more enjoyable, and atmospheric in a simple family fun sort of way, but I really admire Moffat's high concepts, darker tone and character interactions. But it's like comparing apples to oranges, they are writing for very different audiences, with very different budgets, deadlines and formats to work around...but the majority of the episodes from both just feel like Doctor Who to me. Not much of an answer, sorry. (Looking at Steven Moffat's list of credits, and remembering the pressure he has to deal with from audiences, fans and critics...you have to wonder why he isn't a nervous wreck by this point...I wonder if he has any more ideas for 11 or 12, or maybe some 'lost stories' we could hear at BF eventually...)
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 1, 2016 18:12:22 GMT
Come on Steven Moffat! YOU CAN DO IT!
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Jul 1, 2016 19:20:12 GMT
Hmm...I'm honestly not sure,wanted to vote for both but I can't . I haven't seen all the episodes by either of them, but I think Holmes's stories were more enjoyable, and atmospheric in a simple family fun sort of way, but I really admire Moffat's high concepts, darker tone and character interactions. I don't know where you are getting Moffats darker tone and character interaction from. Robert Holmes has written some of the best dialogue.
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Post by grazey on Jul 1, 2016 22:59:48 GMT
It's very hard to go against Robert Holmes. Very much has his Dna all over the show which lasts to this day
Created: Galifrey Regeneration limit Autons The master Sutek Sontarans evolved the timelords into what they are now Script edited toms best seasons imop Best pre and post regeneration story imop (spearhead and caves)
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Post by kimalysong on Jul 1, 2016 23:06:06 GMT
Robert Holmes did not create the Master though that was more Uncle Terry and Barry Letts.
Personally I don't think any one person is responsible for the the greatness of Doctor Who. It's conglomerate of great minds that continued to build on the mythology of the series and that continues to this day.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2016 23:18:09 GMT
Robert Holmes did not create the Master though that was more Uncle Terry and Barry Letts. Personally I don't think any one person is responsible for the the greatness of Doctor Who. It's conglomerate of great minds that continued to build on the mythology of the series and that continues to this day. Credit due to David Whitaker for the original regulars' characterisations, Terry Nation for the original Dalek concept, John Lucarotti for what could be the regarded as the archetypal historical tale, Gerry Davis for the Cybermen and their twin world of Mondas, Malcolm Hulke for the Silurians, etc. That said, Bob Holmes has left quite the indelible mark on the series with his near flawless level of storytelling, helping to create what is considered by many to be a Golden Age of the programme, so while he's not alone in his accomplishments, they're still nevertheless quite significant.
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Post by Ela on Jul 2, 2016 0:58:52 GMT
They were different writers writing for different eras, so I don't really think you can compare them head to head like this. I like and dislike some Holmes stories and I like and dislike some Moffat stories.
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Post by omega on Jul 2, 2016 1:07:02 GMT
They were different writers writing for different eras, so I don't really think you can compare them head to head like this. I like and dislike some Holmes stories and I like and dislike some Moffat stories. Exactly. It's like comparing The Aztecs to Earthshock, both are very different in tone and scale to the point that choosing between the two depends on if you like historicals or action-orientated stories better. If you don't like what Moffat has done, don't watch it. Unless you're strapped to a chair in front of a screen playing Moffat era episodes, you're not forced to watch it.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,649
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Post by shutupbanks on Jul 2, 2016 1:19:25 GMT
Personally I don't think any one person is responsible for the the greatness of Doctor Who. It's conglomerate of great minds that continued to build on the mythology of the series and that continues to this day. Totally agree: however, I still voted for Mr Moffat because of "Coupling." Both fantastic writers, though.
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Post by Hieronymus on Jul 2, 2016 1:53:58 GMT
Robert Holmes played more with the English language than any other writer for Who.
He loved anagrams: Drashig is an anagram of dishrag. Androgum is an anagram of gourmand.
He had fun with similar sounding words: "That's very magnanimous of you Magnus".
He wrote hidden tongue twisters for the actors, that you don't notice in the program because Who has top notch actors, but if you say the lines aloud there is a lyrical and metrical complexity hidden in them: "The people Katryka calls underground dwellers?" (Props to Nicola Bryant for getting that line out.)
He invented words so plain, obvious, and simple that they have trickled into other areas of science fiction. The word auton appears in a variety of science fiction works, but none prior to Spearhead from Space.
And Holmes' play with the words in a script was just one level of his writing. Robert Holmes wrote in many layers of script, with a richness of language and characterization whose combination you don't see in the other writers. (With the sole exception of Silver Nemesis, which for all its faults is remarkable for having the 16th century characters speak entirely in iambic pentameter.)
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Post by constonks on Jul 2, 2016 3:17:19 GMT
Best pre and post regeneration story imop (spearhead and caves) See, it's funny cause I'd say that Moffat did the best post-regen story with The Eleventh Hour. But it owes a LOT to Spearhead. Best regeneration story being Caves, though? I can dig that. (Also, for all that The Twin Dilemma is reviled, I think Colin's appearance at the end of Caves is probably my favourite part in all of Season 21.) As for the question at hand, I have no idea. Both have written favourites of mine and both have incredible talent. I think I lean towards Holmes, but that's probably more about classical respect than anything. His stuff has stood the test of time, after all (except certain... aspects of Talons).
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Post by barnabaslives on Jul 2, 2016 3:48:18 GMT
Seems sort of apples and oranges, they both have some remarkable things to their credit. I do have to acknowledge though that Moffat has written some of my favorite New Who and not written most of the new series stuff that really bugs me, which in its own way is as impressive to me as Holmes' advancement of Gallifrey.
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Post by jasonward on Jul 2, 2016 10:09:49 GMT
If the question was who has most consistently produced stories you've really enjoyed and left an impression on you, then I would vote Robert Holmes.
But in all other contexts I find the pair cannot be compared, either because I don't know enough about either to make the comparison, or because where I do perhaps enough, I just find the contexts are so different that they don't bear up to comparison.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Jul 2, 2016 10:28:02 GMT
If the question was who has most consistently produced stories you've really enjoyed and left an impression on you, then I would vote Robert Holmes. But in all other contexts I find the pair cannot be compared, either because I don't know enough about either to make the comparison, or because where I do perhaps enough, I just find the contexts are so different that they don't bear up to comparison. Surely, you can compare the rhythm of dialogue, the plot, storyline/story structure. Do you enjoy a particular story, in general? Why do you enjoy that story? Has it stood up well to time? If you can put aside visual affects and the like you should be able to "compare".
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Post by pawntake on Jul 2, 2016 10:42:41 GMT
All you can be is one of the best in your era.Robert Holmes was,and Steven Moffat still is.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Jul 2, 2016 11:11:03 GMT
All you can be is one of the best in your era.Robert Holmes was,and Steven Moffat still is. Yeah, but Holmes is still better than Moffat!
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Post by pawntake on Jul 2, 2016 11:27:09 GMT
All you can be is one of the best in your era.Robert Holmes was,and Steven Moffat still is. Yeah, but Holmes is still better than Moffat! I agree
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jul 2, 2016 21:07:08 GMT
The basic question I think is could you swap them out so that their stories/style appear in the other's era. No. We're comparing oranges and apples here. Some prefer one over the other and that's cool. But they're still different things rather than two apples or two oranges. Moffat would never have written/could never have written Talons of Weng Chiang, but again Holmes could never have written Blink.
And neither of them could have written City of Death!
There are, sadly, enough writers of Who over the years where anyone could have written their contribution, perhaps while asleep. Moffat and Holmes don't fall into that category.
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