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Post by charlesuirdhein on Aug 8, 2016 14:53:12 GMT
Its just the differences between the incarnations. The Classic series didn't really give us a wide variety of incarnations, because the Anthony Ainley Master was just a poor man's Roger Delgado Master. The Simm and Macqueen Masters are also both crazier than anything we got from the Master in the Classic Series. I always reasoned that the Master was mad because he had ran out of regenerations. Pratt/Beevers/Ainley/Roberts weren't normal incarnations, and this drove him insane. However, that theory doesn't work, now, as Jacobi was a new life cycle, and Simm was mad. We still don't know where the Gomez Master is in terms of incarnation number. Pratt/Beevers were the last, the 13th, normal incarnation. So desperate to find a way to heal and live on. Perhaps not sane but definitely "normal" in the sense of being part of the normal life of a Time Lord. Ainley/Roberts were the abnormal ones, and we don't know how many there were AFTER Roberts. Plus while it has been portrayed and accepted here on BF's canon, how much of Beevers is STILL Beevers once the Ainley/Roberts personae have been shed? Is there a noted difference, however nuanced, between pre Ainley Beevers and post Roberts Beevers?
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Aug 8, 2016 18:13:30 GMT
I always reasoned that the Master was mad because he had ran out of regenerations. Pratt/Beevers/Ainley/Roberts weren't normal incarnations, and this drove him insane. However, that theory doesn't work, now, as Jacobi was a new life cycle, and Simm was mad. We still don't know where the Gomez Master is in terms of incarnation number. Pratt/Beevers were the last, the 13th, normal incarnation. So desperate to find a way to heal and live on. Perhaps not sane but definitely "normal" in the sense of being part of the normal life of a Time Lord. Ainley/Roberts were the abnormal ones, and we don't know how many there were AFTER Roberts. Plus while it has been portrayed and accepted here on BF's canon, how much of Beevers is STILL Beevers once the Ainley/Roberts personae have been shed? Is there a noted difference, however nuanced, between pre Ainley Beevers and post Roberts Beevers? Pratt/Beevers was "normal"?
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Post by icecreamdf on Aug 8, 2016 18:55:18 GMT
Pratt/Beevers were the last, the 13th, normal incarnation. So desperate to find a way to heal and live on. Perhaps not sane but definitely "normal" in the sense of being part of the normal life of a Time Lord. Ainley/Roberts were the abnormal ones, and we don't know how many there were AFTER Roberts. Plus while it has been portrayed and accepted here on BF's canon, how much of Beevers is STILL Beevers once the Ainley/Roberts personae have been shed? Is there a noted difference, however nuanced, between pre Ainley Beevers and post Roberts Beevers? Pratt/Beevers was "normal"? Before he got all crusty. Listen to The Two Masters.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Aug 8, 2016 19:13:35 GMT
Pratt/Beevers was "normal"? Before he got all crusty. Listen to The Two Masters. I said normal, as in the normal 13th incarnation of the Master. I didn't say sane or undamaged.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Aug 8, 2016 19:48:18 GMT
Before he got all crusty. Listen to The Two Masters. I said normal, as in the normal 13th incarnation of the Master. I didn't say sane or undamaged. And, to.make things even more confusing, the Master started to regenerate at the end.of Deadly Assassin.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Aug 8, 2016 21:15:58 GMT
I said normal, as in the normal 13th incarnation of the Master. I didn't say sane or undamaged. And, to.make things even more confusing, the Master started to regenerate at the end.of Deadly Assassin. No he didn't. I've just checked. He rants about being master of all matter, then the Doctor defeats him and he falls into a chasm. We don't see how he got out but the Doctor theorised that the sash would have helped him. Then he escapes in his Tardis. No regeneration or even a start of one.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2016 23:49:00 GMT
And, to.make things even more confusing, the Master started to regenerate at the end.of Deadly Assassin. No he didn't. I've just checked. He rants about being master of all matter, then the Doctor defeats him and he falls into a chasm. We don't see how he got out but the Doctor theorised that the sash would have helped him. Then he escapes in his Tardis. No regeneration or even a start of one. The biggest change to the Master at the end of that story is when he's visible through the clock face of his TARDIS. Although significantly distorted, his features are notably less desiccated than they were prior to his fall. If it's not a regeneration, then there has at least been a rejuvenation and it opens up a nice window for the Beevers!Master from The Keeper of Traken who lacks the the intensely pared and grotesque appearance of his predecessor in The Deadly Assassin.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Aug 9, 2016 2:33:21 GMT
No he didn't. I've just checked. He rants about being master of all matter, then the Doctor defeats him and he falls into a chasm. We don't see how he got out but the Doctor theorised that the sash would have helped him. Then he escapes in his Tardis. No regeneration or even a start of one. The biggest change to the Master at the end of that story is when he's visible through the clock face of his TARDIS. Although significantly distorted, his features are notably less desiccated than they were prior to his fall. If it's not a regeneration, then there has at least been a rejuvenation and it opens up a nice window for the Beevers!Master from The Keeper of Traken who lacks the the intensely pared and grotesque appearance of his predecessor in The Deadly Assassin. See above: The Doctor theorised that the sash would have helped him. It's not a regeneration though.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2016 5:39:49 GMT
The biggest change to the Master at the end of that story is when he's visible through the clock face of his TARDIS. Although significantly distorted, his features are notably less desiccated than they were prior to his fall. If it's not a regeneration, then there has at least been a rejuvenation and it opens up a nice window for the Beevers!Master from The Keeper of Traken who lacks the the intensely pared and grotesque appearance of his predecessor in The Deadly Assassin. See above: The Doctor theorised that the sash would have helped him. It's not a regeneration though. I know, I'm agreeing with you. If you take the simile of Time Lords being much like legendary Arabian birds that are born from the ashes after they die, then the Master is a phoenix that lived a fairly ordinary life from a biological perspective until roughly his body was emaciated beyond description, charred beyond the reach of any garden variety panacea through either the events of Last of the Gaderene or Legacy of the Daleks depending on your point of view. Then began his struggle for existence as he sat deep beneath the Capitol on Gallifrey, seething, hating and remembering, waiting for the opportunity to draw the Doctor into his web and make him pay for what was done to him. Events transpire as we've seen and he falls into the caldera that lies beneath the Eye of Harmony, later crawling back to his TARDIS where he's undergoing some kind of transformation. Curiously enough, according to stories like A Town Called Mercy and The Quantum Archangel, his emaciated form still exists "beneath" the Ainley incarnation, further emphasising that parasitism and the concept that he's puppeteering Tremas's form. His next proper regeneration, one that casts off the husk of Tremas totally and is born anew (as is typical for a Time Lord) doesn't occur until First Frontier. It doesn't seem to last very long because of the events with the Roberts!Master have him swallowed up into the Eye of Harmony where... he either plots to assume control of the Omniversal Spectrum and is deposited back inside the Eye by Kroton or an aspect of him does so while the majority remains firmly within the singularity construct. It's tough to be the Master.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Aug 9, 2016 9:15:15 GMT
Rejuvenation, regeneration. Its all the same. Hartnell/Troughton - rejuvenation. Pratt/ ? - rejuvenation? regeneration? Keeper of Traken - different actor.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Aug 9, 2016 18:22:12 GMT
Rejuvenation, regeneration. Its all the same. Hartnell/Troughton - rejuvenation. Pratt/ ? - rejuvenation? regeneration? Keeper of Traken - different actor. Sigh. No it isn't, Paul. That horse bolted a long time ago.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Aug 9, 2016 18:24:04 GMT
See above: The Doctor theorised that the sash would have helped him. It's not a regeneration though. I know, I'm agreeing with you. If you take the simile of Time Lords being much like legendary Arabian birds that are born from the ashes after they die, then the Master is a phoenix that lived a fairly ordinary life from a biological perspective until roughly his body was emaciated beyond description, charred beyond the reach of any garden variety panacea through either the events of Last of the Gaderene or Legacy of the Daleks depending on your point of view. Then began his struggle for existence as he sat deep beneath the Capitol on Gallifrey, seething, hating and remembering, waiting for the opportunity to draw the Doctor into his web and make him pay for what was done to him. Events transpire as we've seen and he falls into the caldera that lies beneath the Eye of Harmony, later crawling back to his TARDIS where he's undergoing some kind of transformation. Curiously enough, according to stories like A Town Called Mercy and The Quantum Archangel, his emaciated form still exists "beneath" the Ainley incarnation, further emphasising that parasitism and the concept that he's puppeteering Tremas's form. His next proper regeneration, one that casts off the husk of Tremas totally and is born anew (as is typical for a Time Lord) doesn't occur until First Frontier. It doesn't seem to last very long because of the events with the Roberts!Master have him swallowed up into the Eye of Harmony where... he either plots to assume control of the Omniversal Spectrum and is deposited back inside the Eye by Kroton or an aspect of him does so while the majority remains firmly within the singularity construct. It's tough to be the Master. My point of view encompasses The Two Masters trilogy and ignores Legacy of the Daleks (oh yes it does!). Still not read Last of the Gadarene. I'll hold off on that for now.
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