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Post by jason on Sept 9, 2016 2:49:53 GMT
Love conquers all, and that's official. (Romantic love only, of course.) The universe works that way, really. Edgy (out-of-) characterization for the Doctor. The Doctor - my childhood hero! - enters into an agreement to commit cold-blooded murder. True, he ends up welching, but he seems to have made that deal in 'good' faith ("I didn't realize you'd have friends..."). The entire story sets up a Moment. The choice the Master has to make at the end doesn't come organically from the plot of the story. It's all set up - to hit us right in the feels. I hate when they do that! I know a lot of people really like this story, and I respect that and I don't want to be contrary for its own sake, but...I like my Land of Fiction ending better. I.. do not remember the story having a "Love conquers all attitude," if anything I thought it was the opposite -- "The universe doesn't give a damn about your love." In fact, Death used John's love to get what she wanted. You'll find with Seven that the fact he welches out is an exception rather than a rule. This is a man who shoots another creature in the face as part of taking responsibility for his actions, who manipulates a man into putting a gun against his head and pulling the trigger, who made a Dalek beg to be killed, who destroyed an entire world who had just made peace because of the danger it represented, who was going to kill over twenty thousand children if the situation needed it. He doesn't welch and when he does it is seriously unexpected. This was the 1990s VNA Seventh Doctor who was capable of doing very nasty things so that others could live. Ahh, that's Death's game. She has enough power to visit the Doctor when he's at his lowest and tease him with the knowledge that he will die frightened and alone, surrounded by strangers. The pact that the Doctor has made here for John is the same one he made for Ace in Love and War. However, that raises a very good question that I don't think anyone's proffered up so far. What choice do we believe John made? Did he kill Victor and once again become the Master or allow him to live and have the night transpire as we saw? I was referring to the part where the Doctor and John realize that John's love for Jacqueline ( romantic love, mind you - he already loved her as a friend) may redeem him from having to become the Master again. From the online Doctor Who Reference Guide: "The Doctor’s deal enabled John to live in a community for ten years and feel a sense of belonging -- but love never entered the equation. If John and Jacqueline truly love each other, perhaps John will be able to change himself and break free of Death forever. The Doctor and John set off to find Jacqueline, realising that if Death gets to her first, there will be no hope left, and John Smith will be doomed to become the Master once more." [And that is what happens.] I believe I stopped reading the NAs before I got to the ones you describe. Fair enough, I suppose, that Big Finish should homage and expand upon that universe as well as Classic Doctor Who on TV (and the DWM comics, for that matter). I know the NAs have their fans and that's cool, and I did enjoy some of the stories, but the Doctor as you describe wasn't the hero whose adventures I wanted to follow.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2016 3:20:51 GMT
I.. do not remember the story having a "Love conquers all attitude," if anything I thought it was the opposite -- "The universe doesn't give a damn about your love." In fact, Death used John's love to get what she wanted. You'll find with Seven that the fact he welches out is an exception rather than a rule. This is a man who shoots another creature in the face as part of taking responsibility for his actions, who manipulates a man into putting a gun against his head and pulling the trigger, who made a Dalek beg to be killed, who destroyed an entire world who had just made peace because of the danger it represented, who was going to kill over twenty thousand children if the situation needed it. He doesn't welch and when he does it is seriously unexpected. This was the 1990s VNA Seventh Doctor who was capable of doing very nasty things so that others could live. Ahh, that's Death's game. She has enough power to visit the Doctor when he's at his lowest and tease him with the knowledge that he will die frightened and alone, surrounded by strangers. The pact that the Doctor has made here for John is the same one he made for Ace in Love and War. However, that raises a very good question that I don't think anyone's proffered up so far. What choice do we believe John made? Did he kill Victor and once again become the Master or allow him to live and have the night transpire as we saw? I was referring to the part where the Doctor and John realize that John's love for Jacqueline ( romantic love, mind you - he already loved her as a friend) may redeem him from having to become the Master again. From the online Doctor Who Reference Guide: "The Doctor’s deal enabled John to live in a community for ten years and feel a sense of belonging -- but love never entered the equation. If John and Jacqueline truly love each other, perhaps John will be able to change himself and break free of Death forever. The Doctor and John set off to find Jacqueline, realising that if Death gets to her first, there will be no hope left, and John Smith will be doomed to become the Master once more." [And that is what happens.] I believe I stopped reading the NAs before I got to the ones you describe. Fair enough, I suppose, that Big Finish should homage and expand upon that universe as well as Classic Doctor Who on TV (and the DWM comics, for that matter). I know the NAs have their fans and that's cool, and I did enjoy some of the stories, but the Doctor as you describe wasn't the hero whose adventures I wanted to follow. That's fair. My first exposure to Doctor Who was through early First/Sixth Doctor stories, so my idea of how far and in what ways you could push the character are probably very different. I believe that some Doctors hold closer to their credo of non-violence than others do to justice. It's a sliding scale. And, when the situation calls for it, when lives other than his own are at risk, there are always exceptions. The Fourth Doctor gassed Solon in The Brain of Morbius, the peace-loving Fifth Doctor let the Master burn to death in Planet of Fire and even the bubbly Second Doctor deliberately put Jamie in harm's way in a plot to wipe out the Daleks. In fact, he was the one who came up with the device that melted Ice Warriors in their armour for The Seeds of Death. Mind you, I think when you do that with the Doctor, it's important to counterpoint it. The Sixth Doctor worked at his best when he mused over his inherently violent nature and the First Doctor shows that fascinating period where he's being humanised by Ian, Barbara and his other companions. The NA Seventh Doctor was the man who cradled a dead girl in his arms and shouted -- " Look at what you've done!", who comforted Alistair as he struggled with his apparent dementia, who got drunk and sung happy birthday to the universe, who had to ask Ace what "groupies" were, who was buried up to his neck in the sand and had to be rescued by Benny because everyone thought it was part of an elaborate master plan. That's what I love about the Doctor's character. He can be brave, just and noble, but has demons and evils within himself to fight just as everyone else does. That's what makes him work, I think.
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Post by Timelord007 on Sept 9, 2016 7:37:54 GMT
Awesome audio drama, great story, emotional, creepy & well performed by the small cast.
Definitely a 9/10
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Post by shallacatop on Jan 21, 2019 20:58:33 GMT
Given this a listen today, as the release of River 5 tomorrow got me in the mood for some Master material.
It’s just superb, isn’t it? A quality production in every sense. The sound effects and music are pitched perfectly, the atmosphere is chilling, the script is brilliant and the cast are on fine form. You’re drawn in instantly and the twists, turns and reveals that follow are gripping. Sylvester McCoy is at his best when playing the manipulative and scheming New Adventures-esque Doctor.
It’s a good job that Big Finish have done a number of things with Geoffrey Beevers’ Master over the years, as he’s obviously not really playing the Master in this one. It means it ages well, knowing he’s done some brilliant material since.
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Post by Tim Bradley on Jan 14, 2021 23:54:24 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2021 1:39:06 GMT
I was wondering where this thread was. Looking back this four years on... We really were spoiled for choice with the Villains trilogy, weren't we? We had a story about being inside the mania of a fallen hero in Omega, a meditation on why evil persists in Davros, and a seemingly simple kindness from an estranged friend turned deadly in Master. Joseph Lidster in full-force, delivering a tale that wouldn't have been out of place in Neil Gaiman's Sandman. Still quite moving after over a decade and Death is (and the deaths are) just as spooky. Now, what can I say four years on that I wouldn't have been able to say at the time? Well, a lot can happen in half-a-decade. Davros gets a lot of praise from me for being a story that works within and outside of itself. Its intertextuality not only elevates its own story, but bolsters every story around it. That's writer Lance Parkin's bread and butter. His jam. The whole continental breakfast. Something he was able to do because of the history leading up to and beyond that point. With Master, in 2003 and for the better half of a decade, it was a self-contained tale. That's no longer true. There are two ways you can interpret this story and both are equally valid. This could be the final end of the Master. The story which they do not come back from and spend the rest of their existence as a mournful John Smith. That's the possible Evil of the Daleks interpretation. The other, the more curious, is that this is a story... on the road to Missy. John spends ten years on Perfugium, he falls in love, and fundamentally develops into the fellow that the Master could've been if not for Death. With everything stripped away, John dead and the Master returned (in an echo of Human Nature), those memories would persist. This could have been where that spark all started. The Doctor wanted to save his old friend. Maybe, in the end -- for a time, at least -- he did.
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Post by mark687 on Jan 27, 2021 14:52:50 GMT
Yet another one I'm sure I've Posted about before but obviously.
I echo the thoughts of above Posters in that I think only Geoffrey Beevers could pull "Jhon" off. Even Jacobi's YANA doesn't ring as true as a Safe and clueless Master.
We know he's the Master, we're waiting for the shoe to drop and when it does the masks drop off everyone except "John", "John" is offered the chance to keep his but lets it drop because despite the revalation The Doctor is still his friend.
Regards
mark687
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