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Post by Tim Bradley on Aug 12, 2016 14:02:04 GMT
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Post by CookieMaster on Jan 10, 2017 9:53:26 GMT
'Twelve Doctors of Christmas' has a Monk story set after the Time War called 'The Persistence of Memory'. Nice to see the old chap made it.
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Post by constonks on Jan 10, 2017 10:13:37 GMT
Other than "Persistence", the only two appearances of the Monk missing are his appearance in The Dimension Riders (directly before No Future) and his part in the flashback of Divided Loyalties, where he's seen as young Mortimus on Gallifrey (in his first incarnation - unknown whether this is Butterworth or not though).
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Post by sailorhaumea on Jan 12, 2017 23:08:47 GMT
Other than "Persistence", the only two appearances of the Monk missing are his appearance in The Dimension Riders (directly before No Future) and his part in the flashback of Divided Loyalties, where he's seen as young Mortimus on Gallifrey (in his first incarnation - unknown whether this is Butterworth or not though). It's made clear that the Divided Loyalties flashback is just a nightmare - it didn't actually happen, the Toymaker made it up. |
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Post by constonks on Jan 13, 2017 1:48:27 GMT
But... why include a "Where Are They Now?" section in the back of the book then if the Deca don't actually appear? And why have something "never happen," but then a repercussion of it directly affects the story? [I'll spoiler what I mean by that if it's unclear:] The flashback includes the Doctor meeting the Toymaker, and Rallon and Millennia being absorbed/killed by him. They then show up in the climax. I've heard this reading of DL before - and I was expecting the book to be more vague before I read it. (This is usually used as a way to say that Koschei was merely an alias - but the text explicitly says Koschei is the Master's "real name" during the Fifth Doctor section of the story, not just the flashback.) But I definitely didn't think it was meant to be "just a dream" - and if it was, choosing to spend five or six chapters on it is a pretty terrible choice. |
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Post by sailorhaumea on Jan 13, 2017 1:59:52 GMT
But... why include a "Where Are They Now?" section in the back of the book then if the Deca don't actually appear? And why have something "never happen," but then a repercussion of it directly affects the story? [I'll spoiler what I mean by that if it's unclear:] The flashback includes the Doctor meeting the Toymaker, and Rallon and Millennia being absorbed/killed by him. They then show up in the climax. I've heard this reading of DL before - and I was expecting the book to be more vague before I read it. (This is usually used as a way to say that Koschei was merely an alias - but the text explicitly says Koschei is the Master's "real name" during the Fifth Doctor section of the story, not just the flashback.) But I definitely didn't think it was meant to be "just a dream" - and if it was, choosing to spend five or six chapters on it is a pretty terrible choice. The whole book is terrible in general. The dream doesn't make sense at all. 1. If Koschei is his name, why is it treated as an alias in The Dark Path? 2. If Mortimus and the Doctor were school buddies, why doesn't the Doctor recognize the Monk immediately in The Time Meddler? Why doesn't the Monk say, "Theta, it's me, Mortimus!" ? |
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Post by constonks on Jan 13, 2017 2:56:26 GMT
But... why include a "Where Are They Now?" section in the back of the book then if the Deca don't actually appear? And why have something "never happen," but then a repercussion of it directly affects the story? [I'll spoiler what I mean by that if it's unclear:] The flashback includes the Doctor meeting the Toymaker, and Rallon and Millennia being absorbed/killed by him. They then show up in the climax. I've heard this reading of DL before - and I was expecting the book to be more vague before I read it. (This is usually used as a way to say that Koschei was merely an alias - but the text explicitly says Koschei is the Master's "real name" during the Fifth Doctor section of the story, not just the flashback.) But I definitely didn't think it was meant to be "just a dream" - and if it was, choosing to spend five or six chapters on it is a pretty terrible choice. The whole book is terrible in general. The dream doesn't make sense at all. 1. If Koschei is his name, why is it treated as an alias in The Dark Path? 2. If Mortimus and the Doctor were school buddies, why doesn't the Doctor recognize the Monk immediately in The Time Meddler? Why doesn't the Monk say, "Theta, it's me, Mortimus!" ? 1. I would honestly argue it isn't: (I'll spoiler this though cause it's massive and off-topic.)
I’d say he recognizes the name and thinks it COULD be the Master. The only thing I see in the text that makes me think Koschei could be an alias is that the Doctor introduces him to Jamie by saying, “This is, er, Koschei.” If you’re counting novels as canon, though, Divided Loyalties says Koschei is “the Master’s real name”, regardless of anyone’s opinion of the book and its quality.
2. We don't actually see their first conversation with each other in TTM (the Monk captures the Doctor, laughs maniacally and then Hartnell takes a week's holiday), but I agree that the serial was not written to imply that they knew each other. In any case, the Doctor mentioned Mortimus as one of the Deca in The Rani Elite (when he calls the Rani "Ushas") - and the Monk has been called Mortimus in more than just Divided Loyalties - so it's not like it's something unique to the book. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2017 5:29:29 GMT
The whole book is terrible in general. The dream doesn't make sense at all. 1. If Koschei is his name, why is it treated as an alias in The Dark Path? 2. If Mortimus and the Doctor were school buddies, why doesn't the Doctor recognize the Monk immediately in The Time Meddler? Why doesn't the Monk say, "Theta, it's me, Mortimus!" ? 1. I would honestly argue it isn't: (I'll spoiler this though cause it's massive and off-topic.) I’d say he recognizes the name and thinks it COULD be the Master. The only thing I see in the text that makes me think Koschei could be an alias is that the Doctor introduces him to Jamie by saying, “This is, er, Koschei.” If you’re counting novels as canon, though, Divided Loyalties says Koschei is “the Master’s real name”, regardless of anyone’s opinion of the book and its quality. The Doctor's confusion there with Ailla is a bit understandable considering that Koschei is an immortal antagonistic prince from a Russian fairy tale. It'd be a bit like saying that Rumpelstiltskin is expecting you, it's an unusual occurrence to say the least. Although, probably not that unusual considering what typically happens to the Second Doctor... |
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Post by sailorhaumea on Jan 13, 2017 7:24:32 GMT
I'm not arguing that Mortimus isn't the Monk. I'm arguing that the nightmare is so distorted from reality it's entirety possible the Doctor wasn't a member of the Deca, and merely knew of them. My idea is that the Deca had among its members Mortimus, Magnus/Koschei, Ushas, and Drax, plus a few others. The Doctor knew of them because he was best friends with Magnus, but was not himself a member.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2017 8:26:43 GMT
I'm not arguing that Mortimus isn't the Monk. I'm arguing that the nightmare is so distorted from reality it's entirety possible the Doctor wasn't a member of the Deca, and merely knew of them. My idea is that the Deca had among its members Mortimus, Magnus/Koschei, Ushas, and Drax, plus a few others. The Doctor knew of them because he was best friends with Magnus, but was not himself a member. Well, dreams are by their very nature largely unreliable things, it's entirely possible. Given the Doctor's miserable academic standing, it's extremely unlikely that the Deca were all the best of their class if he were a part of it. You know, the idea strikes me almost as an attempt to do the Gallifreyan Famous Five with... less than successful results. Divided Loyalties is marred by the fact that not only does it contradict other stories, it also manages to contradict itself quite a bit as well. It's not one of Gary Russell's best stories unfortunately, he's written far better elsewhere. With a bit of twisting the Deca can be an interesting idea, like maybe revamping it to be something like the Cambridge Five where they were deliberately investigating events beyond Gallifrey that the Time Lords could possibly consider treasonous. Forbidden knowledge from the age before Rassilon, classified expedition reports from TARDISes or something similar. It could explain why so many of them became renegades, they each drew their own conclusions of the cosmos beyond Kasterborous and ventured out when their lives reached that flashpoint. The Doctor left because of Glospin's threat to expose his supposed illegitimacy to House Lungbarrow, the Master because of the Doctor's continual interference in the affairs of the lesser races, the Monk because of some controversy with the High Council, etc. |
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Post by constonks on Jan 13, 2017 15:26:13 GMT
I'm not arguing that Mortimus isn't the Monk. I'm arguing that the nightmare is so distorted from reality it's entirety possible the Doctor wasn't a member of the Deca, and merely knew of them. My idea is that the Deca had among its members Mortimus, Magnus/Koschei, Ushas, and Drax, plus a few others. The Doctor knew of them because he was best friends with Magnus, but was not himself a member. Hm. Fair I suppose, although the Where Are They Now section (the Gallifreyan Animal House ending) at the back definitively lists out the Deca, and includes the Doctor - and says separate things for Magnus and Koschei. And that's not part of the dream. That's just narration. Also - just looked up the Deca quote from The Rani Elite: Regardless, I think that the Monk's appearance in Divided Loyalties should at least be LISTED on a timeline like Tim's, where everything's treated as equal and true. Although it should probably be mentioned that the flashback is in a dream induced by the Toymaker. But it's ultimately up to Tim. [For the record, I do agree Divided Loyalties is not a great book - I enjoyed bits of it but the pacing is all messed up and the plot doesn't hold together super well. Although I'd read the dream again before I'd read the whole book.] |
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Post by Zagreus on Apr 9, 2017 17:07:10 GMT
I notice this hasn't been updated to include Side of the Angels, from Doom Coalition.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 9, 2017 18:03:43 GMT
Just a thought. Saying such and such is the Master's real name doesn't mean it's the Master using it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 20:45:48 GMT
Just a thought. Saying such and such is the Master's real name doesn't mean it's the Master using it. Occams razor though. |
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Post by Zagreus on Mar 22, 2018 18:05:28 GMT
Regarding The Rise of the New Humans... {Spoiler}The Monk makes some mentions that would seem to imply that Hound comes after Garden. |
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Post by theillusiveman on Sept 22, 2021 14:35:03 GMT
Not My Work but roughly how it is after some of the more recent Releases
Regards mark687 i think you accidentally posted the Big Finish tweet about Stephen Critchlow in the monk timeline by accident |
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Sept 22, 2021 14:37:41 GMT
Missy and the Monk spoilers
{Two Monks, One Mistress}
This confirms very explicitly that Whelan is the incarnation immediately after Hound.
So it goes:
Butterworth
Garden
Hound
Whelan
“Persistence of Memory” incarnation |
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Post by mark687 on Sept 22, 2021 14:57:46 GMT
Correct Tweet Regards mark687 |
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