|
Post by Tim Bradley on Oct 12, 2016 14:21:15 GMT
|
|
|
Post by whiskeybrewer on Oct 14, 2016 17:45:18 GMT
I'm intrigued by the placement of Lungbarroow after Zagreus. Why is that?
Also the flashbacks and such from Lungbarrow, should be placed in the Dark Times and after the Barn in Listen
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2016 7:56:11 GMT
I'm intrigued by the placement of Lungbarroow after Zagreus. Why is that? Romana and Leela meet for the first time in Zagreus, it's early enough that Romana's not even aware of Leela's name or her reputation beyond being "the savage". There's a big jump between the two stories in retrospect because Romana trusts Leela enough to cover for her while she's elsewhere during the CIA's coup in Lungbarrow. If you wanted to smooth out the transition, you could theoretically place Lungbarrow in the middle of Gallifrey between A Blind Eye and Lies. Any later than that and you run into a continuity gaffe regarding Romana's scheme to open up the Academy to non-Gallifreyans. It has a nice sense of build up actually, all the little goings ons in that first series culminating in an attempted hostile takeover. Ooh, boy... Tim Bradley , I admire your dedication. Gallifrey is only slightly less difficult to wrangle than the Dalek timeline(s) is/are. There are scenes from Cat's Cradle: Time's Crucible which occur in the Dark Times and feature Pythia's own self-destruction. The Final Chapter is interesting because not only does it quickly feature Rassilon's first declaration of the Time Lords and the establishment of the Eye of Harmony, but the bulk of it is said to be set long into the future relative to the Eight Doctor. It's so far forward in fact, that he's considered a legend and a bogeyman by the Gallifreyans themselves. Little more than a myth.
|
|
|
Post by whiskeybrewer on Oct 15, 2016 11:32:13 GMT
I'm intrigued by the placement of Lungbarroow after Zagreus. Why is that? Romana and Leela meet for the first time in Zagreus, it's early enough that Romana's not even aware of Leela's name or her reputation beyond being "the savage". There's a big jump between the two stories in retrospect because Romana trusts Leela enough to cover for her while she's elsewhere during the CIA's coup in Lungbarrow. If you wanted to smooth out the transition, you could theoretically place Lungbarrow in the middle of Gallifrey between A Blind Eye and Lies. Any later than that and you run into a continuity gaffe regarding Romana's scheme to open up the Academy to non-Gallifreyans. It has a nice sense of build up actually, all the little goings ons in that first series culminating in an attempted hostile takeover. Ooh, boy... Tim Bradley , I admire your dedication. Gallifrey is only slightly less difficult to wrangle than the Dalek timeline(s) is/are. There are scenes from Cat's Cradle: Time's Crucible which occur in the Dark Times and feature Pythia's own self-destruction. The Final Chapter is interesting because not only does it quickly feature Rassilon's first declaration of the Time Lords and the establishment of the Eye of Harmony, but the bulk of it is said to be set long into the future relative to the Eight Doctor. It's so far forward in fact, that he's considered a legend and a bogeyman by the Gallifreyans themselves. Little more than a myth. Ah okay that makes sense, if you try and everything in one canon yeah. Well if they adapt it at any time, I'm sure BF can sort that out and it would also prove that the Doctor doesnt always travel to Gallifrey in chronological order. Unless you say that the CIA somehow managed to bring him forward in time by mistake when they try and bring him home
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2016 0:09:35 GMT
Romana and Leela meet for the first time in Zagreus, it's early enough that Romana's not even aware of Leela's name or her reputation beyond being "the savage". There's a big jump between the two stories in retrospect because Romana trusts Leela enough to cover for her while she's elsewhere during the CIA's coup in Lungbarrow. If you wanted to smooth out the transition, you could theoretically place Lungbarrow in the middle of Gallifrey between A Blind Eye and Lies. Any later than that and you run into a continuity gaffe regarding Romana's scheme to open up the Academy to non-Gallifreyans. It has a nice sense of build up actually, all the little goings ons in that first series culminating in an attempted hostile takeover. Ooh, boy... Tim Bradley , I admire your dedication. Gallifrey is only slightly less difficult to wrangle than the Dalek timeline(s) is/are. There are scenes from Cat's Cradle: Time's Crucible which occur in the Dark Times and feature Pythia's own self-destruction. The Final Chapter is interesting because not only does it quickly feature Rassilon's first declaration of the Time Lords and the establishment of the Eye of Harmony, but the bulk of it is said to be set long into the future relative to the Eight Doctor. It's so far forward in fact, that he's considered a legend and a bogeyman by the Gallifreyans themselves. Little more than a myth. Ah okay that makes sense, if you try and everything in one canon yeah. Well if they adapt it at any time, I'm sure BF can sort that out and it would also prove that the Doctor doesnt always travel to Gallifrey in chronological order. Unless you say that the CIA somehow managed to bring him forward in time by mistake when they try and bring him home I think Big Finish might already have that covered. The Apocalypse Element kind of acknowledges that the Doctor appears out-of-order by having Sixy tell Romana he was "wearing the right body, just not necessarily in the right order."
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2016 6:23:40 GMT
Ah okay that makes sense, if you try and everything in one canon yeah. Well if they adapt it at any time, I'm sure BF can sort that out and it would also prove that the Doctor doesnt always travel to Gallifrey in chronological order. Unless you say that the CIA somehow managed to bring him forward in time by mistake when they try and bring him home I think Big Finish might already have that covered. The Apocalypse Element kind of acknowledges that the Doctor appears out-of-order by having Sixy tell Romana he was "wearing the right body, just not necessarily in the right order." Yes, because it comes after Sirens of Time in Gallifrey and Romana's timeline, where Seven is the current Doctor.
|
|
|
Post by whiskeybrewer on Oct 16, 2016 19:51:05 GMT
Ah right that makes sense, so it would just be an extra thing that they have already covered and explained. Thats cool
Thanks guys
|
|
|
Post by J.A. Prentice on Nov 6, 2016 7:17:56 GMT
So are you assuming the Young First Doctor is actually the Other? If so, shouldn't it be pre-Lungbarrow flashbacks? If not, why place it in the Dark Times instead of the Rassilon Era? This is curiosity, not criticism. The timeline's such a crazy mess that it's impressive you were able to put this together so coherently. Now all you need is to work in The Infinity Doctors, Death Comes to Time, and Faction Paradox. lol
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2016 8:00:06 GMT
This is curiosity, not criticism. The timeline's such a crazy mess that it's impressive you were able to put this together so coherently. Now all you need is to work in The Infinity Doctors, Death Comes to Time, and Faction Paradox. lol *cracks fingers* Alrighty... Let's have a go at this. The Infinity Doctors I'd place just after The Gallifrey Chronicles because the long-term consequences set up in that novel and the sense that he's retired from his wanderings to watch over Gallifrey for a time. The reconstitution process would have been long and there's no sense charging off from something so vital as the reestablishment of an entire world, particularly your own, without investing some of your time into monitoring its progress. Short hair or no short hair. As the New EDAs would show, Gallifrey is a lot more vulnerable now than it was previously. Weak enough that the Daleks turned their eyestalks towards time's caldera itself. I have a personal theory that Death Comes to Time takes place at the far end of Gallifrey's timeline when the planet has long since turned to dust and there are little more than a handful of Time Lords left to uphold the mantle. The Kingmaker at Mount Plutarch also represents a power greater than the Gallifreyans themselves that we've yet to see in any other story, both on and off-screen. Micen Island at the heart of the Orion Nebula stands as testament to the dead where the Time Lords radically altered their beliefs to "serve the many", indicating that there has been a monumental cosmic upheaval at this point in time that necessitated such a change. Since the emergence of the Curator opened up the possibility of reiterated visages, I'm almost tempted to believe that this isn't the Seventh Doctor after all, but rather his final corporeal incarnation. The last one with a physical form before he became the Guardian of Justice or attended to other business elsewhere. Ah... Well... Mmm... The Faction exist for the sole purpose of mucking all of this up. If we could tie them down to a singular timestream, I'd say that most of their encounters occur prior to The Ancestor Cell.
|
|
|
Post by J.A. Prentice on Nov 8, 2016 0:10:29 GMT
That's... really impressive. I think you've changed my mind on where Death Comes to Time fits in and how it works. It actually works quite well as a "last Doctor Who story" at the end of time. And then Ace can get sent back to Gallifrey in the past with her memory a little muddled. Putting Infinity Doctors after Gallifrey Chronicles makes sense. I like your idea of the new Gallifrey being more vulnerable, eventually leading to the Time War. And Faction Paradox laughs in the face of unified timelines.
|
|
|
Post by sailorhaumea on Dec 20, 2016 19:28:23 GMT
I just assume the Doctor lived through DCTT. All we see is a burnt umbrella. After DCTT, the Doctor gets up, retrieves his umbrella, and says goodbye to Ace.
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on Dec 28, 2016 10:09:35 GMT
I agree with the timeline, except Dark Eyes should probably go after the Enemy Lines-Intervention Earth section as Romana isn't the President in Dark Eyes
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on Aug 9, 2019 10:40:28 GMT
So another little project of mine, a timeline of the Time Lords. This includes stories with agents acting on their behalf (usually the Doctor, K-9, Shayde or Leela). Some spoilers for the Gallifrey series (which is kinda unavoidable). This includes a lot of theorising about the implications of Enemy Lines for the Eighth Doctor Adventures novels.
Gallifrey: -Ancient Gallifrey: The era of the rule of the Pythia which sees the earliest time travel experiments by the Neo-Technologists, led by Rassilon, Omega and the Other. The experiments unleash the Yssgaroth (better known as the Great Vampires), leading to the Eternal War between Gallifrey and the Vampires. Upon the War’s conclusion Rassilon returns to Gallifrey and leads a revolution to overthrow the Pythia, with the last of her followers retreating to Karn. Blind Fury The Evil and the Deep Black Sky Star Death! Jorus and the Vogonauts The Multi-Faceted War Cat’s Cradle: Time’s Crucible
-Rassilon Era: Rassilon founds Time Lord society, instituting the Houses, and leads the Time Lords into conflicts against the Racnoss, Hyperions and Nestenes, alongside the Fledgling Empires and the Alliance of Races. The very first TT capsules (TARDISes) are developed in this time. Rassilon’s paranoia grows over the course of his rule, resulting in greater authoritarian rule. The Final Chapter The Legacy of Time: Collision Course The Lost Dimension Empire of the Racnoss Terrorformer Gangland Pandoric’s Box Snow White and the Seven Keys to Doomsday The Scrolls of Rassilon Cold Fusion Lungbarrow
-Black Sun War: Decades after the end of Rassilon’s rule, the Time Lords are challenged by a rival temporal power, the Order of the Black Sun 4-D War Black Sun Rising
-Later History: The Time Lords hold absolute power in splendid isolation under the Non-Intervention Policy. Ambitious dictator Morbius attempts to overturn this Policy and lead a campaign of conquest. The Stolen TARDIS: A Tale of the Time Lords Minatorius Warmonger
-The Doctor’s Era: The era in which the Doctor was raised and fled Gallifrey Listen The Sound of Drums Flashback The Toy Birth of a Renegade;Lungbarrow The Name of the Doctor Celestial Intervention-A Gallifreyan Noir The Three Paths The Black Hole
-Overseers of an Exile: Having captured and sentenced the Doctor to exile, the Time Lords employ him as an unofficial agent The War Games World Game The Two Doctors That Time I Nearly Destroyed The Universe Whilst Looking For A Dress The Night Walkers Shadow of the Past Prisoners of the Sun Terror of the Autons Colony in Space The Curse of Peladon The Mutants The Three Doctors -Future Imperfect The Empire of Glass The Inquiry
-Further Missions For The Doctor: The Time Lords continue to direct the Doctor’s travels after releasing him from exile An Overture Too Early The Brain of Morbius Return of the Daleks The Dalek Revenge
-Presidential Succession Crisis: The assassination of the President throws the Gallifreyan political system into chaos The Deadly Assassin The Invasion of Time
-K9’s Missions: The Time Lords deploy K-9 as an unofficial agent K9 and the Time Trap K9 and the Beasts of Vega K9 and the Zeta Rescue K9 and the Missing Planet
-Continued Involvement With The Doctor: The Time Lords continue to run in with the Doctor’s travels. Erasure Circular Time: Spring
-The High Evolutionaries: From within the Matrix, Rassilon chairs a group of powerful individuals who utilise Shayde as their agent The Tides of Time The Stockbridge Horror Catalogue of Events
-Borusa’s Presidency: Borusa becomes President and faces the return of Omega and eventually plots his own immortality Arc of Infinity Blood Invocation The Five Doctors
-The Doctor’s Presidency: The Doctor is recalled to fulfil the role of President to rebuild the damaged political system in the wake of Borusa’s rule Time in Office Urban Myths No Place Like Home
-Corruption at the High Council: The CIA installs a puppet President, Niroc, in the wake of the Doctor’s departure, leading to a free reign for corruption at the highest levels Attack of the Cybermen Mission to Magnus Slipback The World Shapers Synesthespians TM The Trial of a Time Lord: The Mysterious Planet The Trial of a Time Lord: Mindwarp The Trial of a Time Lord: Terror of the Vervoids The Trial of a Time Lord: The Ultimate Foe -The Eight Doctors
-Ravalox Aftermath: In the wake of the Ravalox Scandal, a new government attempts to deal with the aftermath Trial of the Valeyard The Wings of a Butterfly
-The Valeyard’s Master Plan [Negated]: The Valeyard infiltrates the Matrix and plots his master plan, eventually foiled before it had even begun by the Doctor. The Last Adventure: The Brink of Death
-Flavia’s Presidency: Flavia assumes the presidency proper, taking Gallifrey back to a more traditionalist path Unregenerate! Thin Ice Blood Harvest Goth Opera The Eight Doctors
-Romana’s Presidency: Winning an election against Flavia, Romana assumes the Presidency promising reform and greater openness with the universe Happy Endings The Sirens of Time The Apocalypse Element Dominion Doom Coalition 1: The Eleven The Final Chapter Wormwood Shada The Time Lord’s Story The Light at the End Embrace the Darkness Neverland Zagreus Lungbarrow The Quantum Possibility Engine Weapon of Choice Square One The Inquiry A Blind Eye Lies Spirit Pandora The Chaos Pool Insurgency
-Civil War: The escape of Pandora from the Matrix leads to civil war between her traditionalist faction and those loyal to President Romana Imperatrix Fractures Warfare Appropriation
-Seclusion: Matthias becomes President in the wake of the Civil War and faces the outbreak of the Dogma Virus which leads to further civil unrest, leaving the Time Lords weakened against the Gods on Dellah and Dalek incursions into the Axis and Matrix Mindbomb Panacea Dead Romance Tears of the Oracle Where Angels Fear Twilight of the Gods Renaissance Ascension Genesis of the Daleks A Device of Death
-Romana’s Second Presidency: In the aftermath of the Dalek incursions, Romana reassumes the Presidency and employs Leela as a Time Lord agent The Ruthven Inheritance Dead Men’s Tales The Man at the End of the Garden Swan Song Chronoclasm Jago in Love Beautiful Things The Lonely Clock The Hourglass Killers Second Sight Erasure The Eighth of March: Emancipation The Legacy of Time: Collision Course
-The War in Heaven [Negated]: The War waged between the Time Lords and the Enemy, with Faction Paradox exploiting the fallout. The effects of the War begin to alter the past, changing events prior to its outbreak, and towards the end of the conflict Faction Paradox travel back in time to invade Gallifrey at a point prior to the War, resulting in the negation of the entire conflict. Alien Bodies The Taking of Planet 5 Interference
-The Fall of Gallifrey [Negated]: Echoes of the coming War lead to an attempted coup by the Adherents of Ohm and Romana pursuing more aggressive actions to safeguard Gallifrey, which inadvertently accelerate the outbreak of war. As Faction Paradox of the future invade, the Doctor destroys Gallifrey but copies the entire Matrix into his own mind, enabling the Time Lords’ eventual restoration. At some point in the events leading to the fall of Gallifrey, Romana sends Braxiatel back in time to her regeneration where he alters events, negating this entire timeline. Intervention Earth Enemy Lines Luna Romana The Shadows of Avalon The Banquo Legacy The Ancestor Cell -The Gallifrey Chronicles The Adventuress of Henrietta Street Timeless The Gallifrey Chronicles The Infinity Doctors
-The Watchmaker [Negated]: The actions of Braxiatel forge a new unstable timeline, in which Romana resigns as President and Livia succeeds her, prompting the appearance of the Watchmaker to stabilise the timelines. Enemy Lines
-The New Future: The actions of Braxiatel and the Watchmaker forge a new stable timeline, in which Romana resigns as President and Livia succeeds her and tensions with the Daleks begin to escalate. Enemy Lines The Adventure of the Diogenes Damsel Human Resources Sisters of the Flame/The Vengeance of Morbius Nevermore Dark Eyes 1: The Great War Dark Eyes 1: Fugitives Dark Eyes 1: Tangled Web Dark Eyes 1: X and the Daleks
-The Doom Coalition: A coalition of renegades plot a coup on Gallifrey and prepare to destroy the rest of the universe to safeguard the Time Lords Doom Coalition 2: Scenes From Her Life Doom Coalition 4: Stop The Clock Doom Coalition 1: The Eleven -Doom Coalition 2: Scenes From Her Life Doom Coalition 1: The Satanic Mill Doom Coalition 2: Scenes From Her Life Doom Coalition 3: The Crucible of Souls Doom Coalition 4: Songs of Love Doom Coalition 4: The Side of the Angels Doom Coalition 4: Stop The Clock Ravenous 3: Deeptime Frontier
-In Extremis: As all-out war with the Daleks looms, Narvin leads a CIA initiative to try to avert and prepare for the coming conflict. Dark Eyes 3: The Death of Hope Dark Eyes 3: The Reviled Dark Eyes 3: Masterplan Dark Eyes 3: Rule of the Eminence The Master of Callous: Sins of the Father
-The Last Great Time War: The Time Lords make a stand against the Daleks and fight them across space and time. Time War: Celestial Intervention Time War: Soldier Obsura Rage of the Time Lords: The Missing Link Rage of the Time Lords: Darkness and Light Time War: The Devil You Know The Stranger Time War: Desperate Measures Time War: Havoc Time War: Partisans Time War: Collateral Time War: Assassins Only the Good: The Heavenly Paradigm The Time War 1: The Starship of Theseus The Time War 1: Echoes of War The Time War 1: The Conscript The Time War 1: One Life The Time War 2: The Lords of Terror The Time War 2: Planet of the Ogrons The Time War 2: In the Garden of Death The Time War 2: Jonah The Sontaran Ordeal Day of the Vashta Nerada A Heart on Both Sides All Hands on Deck Ambush A Prologue The Third Wise Man Only the Monstrous: The Innocent Only the Monstrous: The Thousand Worlds Only the Monstrous: The Heart of the Battle Infernal Devices: Legion of the Lost Infernal Devices: A Thing of Guile Infernal Devices: The Neverwhen Agents of Chaos: The Shadow Vortex Agents of Chaos: The Eternity Cage Agents of Chaos: Eye of Harmony Casualties of War: Pretty Lies Casualties of War: The Lady of Obsidian Casualties of War: The Enigma Dimension The Bidding War Engines of War Trailer(The First Doctor Volume 2) The Plague of Dreams The Last Day The Day of the Doctor -Sky Jacks -The End of Time
-Post-Time War: The Time Lords return to the universe in hiding, relocating Gallifrey to near the end of the universe. The Time of the Doctor Lords and Masters Face the Raven Heaven Sent Hell Bent
-Cyberman Conquest of Time [Negated]: Rassilon allies himself with the last of the Cybermen, allowing them to conquer Time. They eventually turn on him, forcing him to work with the Doctor to un-do their conquest. Supremacy of the Cybermen
-The Clockwise Men: A new threat arises to the fragile Time Lords in hiding The Clockwise War
Axis Gallifreys: -Axis Timeline 1 (Selling Technology) Reborn
-Axis Timeline 2 (Interventionists) Disassembled
-Axis Timeline (Unending Eternal War): Annihilation
-Axis Timeline 4 (Incomplete Eye of Harmony): Forever Emancipation Evolution Arbitration Extermination
Parallel Universes: -Susan’s Presidency: Auld Mortality A Storm of Angels
-The Great War: Ruler of the Universe: Asking for a Friend
-The Valeyard Victorious: He Jests At Scars
-The Fugitive Doctor: Exile
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2019 12:56:18 GMT
Nice! Good job organising it all into one coherent timeline. Looking at the order, some thoughts begin to occur... I really like how one of the first ever Time Lord tales is a fable between a Beowulf-like figure and Death itself. Kind of makes me wonder what their equivalent of Krampus is on Gallifrey. A Daemon who comes for time tots or something much more sinister? Also, I've just realised that Star Death, the "prime universe" version of events for the initial black hole experiments, features time being altered by Fenris. Does that mean that in the "original" timeline (i.e. prior to the Black Sun attack) Omega wasn't trapped in singularity? How different would everything have been if Omega had survived?
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on Aug 9, 2019 13:02:43 GMT
Nice! Good job organising it all into one coherent timeline. Looking at the order, some thoughts begin to occur... I really like how one of the first ever Time Lord tales is a fable between a Beowulf-like figure and Death itself. Kind of makes me wonder what their equivalent of Krampus is on Gallifrey. A Daemon who comes for time tots or something much more sinister? Also, I've just realised that Star Death, the "prime universe" version of events for the initial black hole experiments, features time being altered by Fenris. Does that mean that in the "original" timeline (i.e. prior to the Black Sun attack) Omega wasn't trapped in singularity? How different would everything have been if Omega had survived? Ooh now that’s a thought. I wonder if Rassilon’s regime wouldn’t have become a tyrannical if he’d had Omega to serve as a confidant? It’s also worth noting that Star Death is introduced by the fourth Doctor, so maybe the version of events in Star Death may be the ‘official’ version of events, perhaps hiding Rassilon’s role in the loss of Omega...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2019 3:37:18 GMT
Nice! Good job organising it all into one coherent timeline. Looking at the order, some thoughts begin to occur... I really like how one of the first ever Time Lord tales is a fable between a Beowulf-like figure and Death itself. Kind of makes me wonder what their equivalent of Krampus is on Gallifrey. A Daemon who comes for time tots or something much more sinister? Also, I've just realised that Star Death, the "prime universe" version of events for the initial black hole experiments, features time being altered by Fenris. Does that mean that in the "original" timeline (i.e. prior to the Black Sun attack) Omega wasn't trapped in singularity? How different would everything have been if Omega had survived? Ooh now that’s a thought. I wonder if Rassilon’s regime wouldn’t have become a tyrannical if he’d had Omega to serve as a confidant? It’s also worth noting that Star Death is introduced by the fourth Doctor, so maybe the version of events in Star Death may be the ‘official’ version of events, perhaps hiding Rassilon’s role in the loss of Omega... That's a good point, the account's definitely couched in truth. There was a historical sabotage attempt (viz. Omega), but the perpetrator in Star Death is made out to be a member of an alien power, rather than one of Gallifrey's own. Perhaps, in reality, there was more than one and the one that succeeded wasn't linked to the Black Sun? Historically, Rassilon's fall is a rather interesting example of history repeating itself. One power, one will, one legacy. Not entirely unlike how the Pythia ruled Gallifrey before the Time Lords. You have to wonder if his paranoia and scheming wasn't in part due to some PTSD from the Eternal War. A deeply powerful, deeply stoic figure who was trying to prevent the very kind of coup that put him into power from happening again. Draconic, in the Vlad the Impaler sense. With Omega there, I think the Time Lords would've probably kept their empire for quite a lot longer, maybe even developing technologies that were forever lost through his death. Given his phenomenal willpower, I can see him helping to steward the Rassilon Era through its tougher moments. We might even have had an Omega Era. It's difficult to say how much of that need for control was the result of being trapped in the black hole and how much was there already. In fact... I wonder how the challenge from Morbius would have gone with one, possible two, founders still in play?
|
|