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Post by acousticwolf on Nov 8, 2016 22:07:20 GMT
OK, it's done. I'm not sure how coherent my thoughts are going to be so I apologise if I wander around a bit. First - Wow! Even with 9 minutes to go I still did not expect that ending. I was prepared for Charles to be real and Dorian just a figment but also for a way for Dorian to break out. This felt like Tasha Yarr in Star Trek the Next Generation. "What the hell and why?" For that alone I have to congratulate the writing of this episode. I do agree with chopper that the end of series 2 was a better complete ending for the series and if it had been set in 2016 it would have been perfect for this to lead to that point (somehow). As it is, it has been left ambiguous and it fits perfectly for the fans - has the story ended? Did Dorian survive somehow? It's a great piece of writing. Why give us the complete story? This series has always been about emotions, searching and what ifs ... Why not the end? It certainly keeps us talking . My view (and quite possibly not popular) - Dorian survived, of course he did. I listened to Shades of Gray straight afterwards and (sorry kimalysong and @scotthandcock) it still fits. Dorian talks about the same mistakes being played over and over again. We have Brennan and Caitlin, imaginary friends who outgrew their creators. Toby and Spencer, both taken by Lucifer to walk the earth in their bodies, the portrait being stolen and Dorian searching for it. Why does he do this? Is it because it's the only way he can die and he's worried ... Or is it because he sees the portrait as his only friend/constant companion (he virtually says as much in both Ever After and Shades). You could say that the writer is just reusing old ideas, but I see it differently. I never understood why Lucifer would want to torment Dorian in the asylum and then have him killed. What better way to take payment for the soul-deal than forcing Dorian to survive, to walk the Earth experiencing everything, forever knowing he will lose everyone he ever knows, everyone he ever loves yet doomed to make and see the same mistakes made time and again. Surely that is a better torment ... Cursed with Immortality with his soul/conscience his constant companion in the form of a hideous portrait. That would be be a greater torment... Literally "This World Our Hell". Finally - this series has been the most thought-provoking, sexy, terrifying, funny and enjoyable range I have ever heard from Big Finish. Granted I have heard better individual stories in other ranges and haven't always enjoyed the stories or the presentation but it is by far my best range of all BF's output and that says a lot about the writing, production, acting, music, post production and everything else associated with it. It also says a lot about BF's output generally as much of it is at a very high level. For me though, this range is the tops. Congratulations to @scotthandcock and @alexvlahos (I can dream lol) for a fantastic range, one I will listen to again and again. Am I'm sad it's over? Yes, but I know Dorian is still out there, still searching... Of course he is . Cheers Tony P.S. Happy birthday Scott
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Post by kimalysong on Nov 8, 2016 22:35:51 GMT
I am perfectly happy with other fans linking the ending to Shades of Gray acousticwolf I just don't personally link them myself. But that's what so great about this type of ending we can all decide what comes next for Dorian.
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Post by chopper on Nov 10, 2016 21:02:17 GMT
acousticwolf actually touched on something that chimed with me there. Why would the devil bother doing that to Dorian. Surely he's tortured enough just existing with Toby gone. Again. At his hand. As much as you may not need motivation from the devil, I needed motivation for the devil for doing this. Maybe it was in a throwaway line that I missed... In all honestly I'll probably ignore this episode in future relistens. But there will be future listens because the series as a whole is so sumptuously good.
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Post by Zagreus on Nov 12, 2016 3:00:58 GMT
Random aside: during the opening, when it's flashing through snippets form everything in roughly chronological order, it has a clip from Trick or Treat right before The Houses in Between. I am tentatively taking that as a rough guide to placement on my timelines.
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Post by Trace on Nov 12, 2016 5:52:39 GMT
I prepared a complete chronology for Dorian during our recent group listen...updating it every week. I will post it in a couple days...I need to update one entry and will need to pull out the laptop....I've never quite taken to preparing documents on an iPad.
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Post by kimalysong on Nov 13, 2016 1:13:42 GMT
Random aside: during the opening, when it's flashing through snippets form everything in roughly chronological order, it has a clip from Trick or Treat right before The Houses in Between. I am tentatively taking that as a rough guide to placement on my timelines. Trick or Treat takes place in 1996
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Post by ausir on Nov 13, 2016 4:56:39 GMT
Random aside: during the opening, when it's flashing through snippets form everything in roughly chronological order, it has a clip from Trick or Treat right before The Houses in Between. I am tentatively taking that as a rough guide to placement on my timelines. Trick or Treat takes place in 1996 What's the source for that? The date's never given in the story itself.
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Post by kimalysong on Nov 13, 2016 4:57:53 GMT
Trick or Treat takes place in 1996 What's the source for that? The date's never given in the story itself. Scott posted a timeline on Twitter or Tumblr
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Post by omega on Nov 13, 2016 5:14:41 GMT
Random aside: during the opening, when it's flashing through snippets form everything in roughly chronological order, it has a clip from Trick or Treat right before The Houses in Between. I am tentatively taking that as a rough guide to placement on my timelines. Trick or Treat has Dorian describe two trick or treaters dressed in costumes that would be very out of place in the 40's.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2016 21:47:36 GMT
Random aside: during the opening, when it's flashing through snippets form everything in roughly chronological order, it has a clip from Trick or Treat right before The Houses in Between. I am tentatively taking that as a rough guide to placement on my timelines. Sorry to be a pedant, but I edited that sequence myself because I wanted to be very specific about the timings, and the Trick or Treat clips comes just after The Heart That Lives Alone one begins, and before a Human Remains one starts...
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Post by Zagreus on Nov 14, 2016 21:51:40 GMT
Random aside: during the opening, when it's flashing through snippets form everything in roughly chronological order, it has a clip from Trick or Treat right before The Houses in Between. I am tentatively taking that as a rough guide to placement on my timelines. Sorry to be a pedant, but I edited that sequence myself because I wanted to be very specific about the timings, and the Trick or Treat clips comes just after The Heart That Lives Alone one begins, and before a Human Remains one starts... Oh no worries! I must have misplaced where the clip came from then, my mistake!
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Post by philomina on Nov 15, 2016 8:28:11 GMT
Sorry to be a pedant, but I edited that sequence myself because I wanted to be very specific about the timings, and the Trick or Treat clips comes just after The Heart That Lives Alone one begins, and before a Human Remains one starts... I bet this was a lot of work fun It was very worth it though! I was in a student movie once where 14 people individually told their story about their worst day and the movie was then made from clips of these 14 stories edited together making one universal story building up tension and everything as if it was told by one person. This sequence here reminded me of that, it really was brilliant in that it immediately took us in very deep. kimalysong: Could you maybe link to or post the timeline here?
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Post by omega on Nov 15, 2016 8:33:18 GMT
Random aside: during the opening, when it's flashing through snippets form everything in roughly chronological order, it has a clip from Trick or Treat right before The Houses in Between. I am tentatively taking that as a rough guide to placement on my timelines. Sorry to be a pedant, but I edited that sequence myself because I wanted to be very specific about the timings, and the Trick or Treat clips comes just after The Heart That Lives Alone one begins, and before a Human Remains one starts... I love how you included The Darkest Shadow cameo in that sequence.
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Post by kastoniago on Nov 27, 2016 0:09:10 GMT
Not strictly related to this story, but something I was hoping would be addressed in this story, or at some point at least:
How did Dorian come back to life after the events of Running Away With You?
I don't think an answer was given in any of the series, unless someone wants to correct me? In Blank Canvas, he references a deal with someone (possibly a 'her' if I recall rightly) to bring him back, but he requires three victims to give him form, voice and youth. Any ideas, or an answer from the creator of the series perhaps? *wink wink*
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Post by kimalysong on Nov 27, 2016 0:42:17 GMT
He had 3 Victims in Blank Canvas. The 3 teens who came to the house.
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Post by Digi on Jan 19, 2017 14:56:30 GMT
Finally listened to this the other day. Very mixed feelings. On one hand: The direction, sound design, and production were just all-around excellent. Just top-notch stuff. And the actors? Every one of them was on their A-game--I believed them all, regardless of who it was or what character they were playing. On the other, I wholeheartedly agree with this: To note, I hate the ‘is it real’ story in any series, because it’s a story that’s intended to disappoint the audience. We are going to be left questioning whether Dorian or Charles are the right person and if the whole series has been thrown under the bus or if the devil is playing a game that Dorian inevitably loses. Both possibilities are unsatisfying I'm not angry, or put off the series the way some finales have made me react (Dexter and Mass Effect 3 spring immediately to mind), but I am disappointed that this otherwise terrific series ended with a story that's about as cliché as they come.
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Post by kimalysong on Jan 19, 2017 19:27:43 GMT
It is interesting that people get different things from fiction because I never felt the point of the story was "is it all real". I looked at the story in a more symbolic way focusing on Dorian's sense of self or what losing that sense of self meant, among other things. If you take out everything that made Dorian Dorian...his immortality, the portrait is he still Dorian? Whether it all happened and what the ending signifies is up to each of us and what type of reader you are.
I think the issue is some people aren't happy leaving stories open to interpretation. Personally I love that type of story and especially love endings like that. But I do get it can frustrate people. Still for me this final story was thematically strong and so much more than "Was it all just a dream" trope.
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Post by nottenst on Jan 24, 2017 20:54:01 GMT
At the same time that Dorian gains his soul he also loses the portrait. Literally because Lucifer must have stolen it from the attic with the key Dorian gave to Toby. Symbolically I feel that final scene with Dorian and his portrait is very important. What does it mean when Dorian says goodbye to his portrait? Is the portrait like the lack of soul also tied up in the identity of Dorian Gray? ... In the end of the story Doctor Tobias is literally trying to cut out Dorian Gray. We even hear Dorian Gray die. But we the listeners remember him and can a character ever truly die in that case? Won't Dorian Gray always be immortal and live on in the listeners memories & hearts? Overall, I was disappointed with this final fate of Dorian Gray. It seemed that after he asked "Doctor Tobias" about the key, then Lucifer/Tobias took care of the portrait and then was prepared to kill Dorian during the operation which we heard. One item about the "is it real or not" situation - I wondered why Dorian never asked anyone why it was he didn't appear to age over all these years. It had been several years since he was known as the Charles White identity with that one person and he didn't even ask him about this. Even if Dorian is killed in Ever After, there is still room for plenty of stories throughout the many years if the writers feel like going back again.
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Post by kimalysong on Jan 24, 2017 21:24:30 GMT
At the same time that Dorian gains his soul he also loses the portrait. Literally because Lucifer must have stolen it from the attic with the key Dorian gave to Toby. Symbolically I feel that final scene with Dorian and his portrait is very important. What does it mean when Dorian says goodbye to his portrait? Is the portrait like the lack of soul also tied up in the identity of Dorian Gray? ... In the end of the story Doctor Tobias is literally trying to cut out Dorian Gray. We even hear Dorian Gray die. But we the listeners remember him and can a character ever truly die in that case? Won't Dorian Gray always be immortal and live on in the listeners memories & hearts? Overall, I was disappointed with this final fate of Dorian Gray. It seemed that after he asked "Doctor Tobias" about the key, then Lucifer/Tobias took care of the portrait and then was prepared to kill Dorian during the operation which we heard. One item about the "is it real or not" situation - I wondered why Dorian never asked anyone why it was he didn't appear to age over all these years. It had been several years since he was known as the Charles White identity with that one person and he didn't even ask him about this. Even if Dorian is killed in Ever After, there is still room for plenty of stories throughout the many years if the writers feel like going back again. See all these things are ambiguous and open to interpretation. You can look at it literally or figuratively. I chose to look at the store in a more figurative/symbolic fashion so to me whether Dorian was real or not wasn't as important. To me he is real because I spent all that time with him. His reality was never in question for me. Well perhaps but again Lucifer could have done something with the portrait or the portrait could never have existed and Dr. Tobias could just have been his Doctor. The story never gives an answer for this but honestly for me it doesn't matter and for me it's more interesting to think how much of the identity of Dorian is tied up in that portrait. If he no longer has the portrait. If he is no longer able to experience his immortality. If his life is just mundane and routine does his identity of Dorian cease to exist? Actually according to the story Dorian was only in the Mental Institution since New Years of 2016 after he either tried to hang himself (according to Dr. Lippincott) or as he recalls after the events of the Brigadoon Hotel when he entered on his own volition because he couldn't take it anymore. It hasn't been years yet. But Dorian himself mentions that he has all the time in the world to prove his identity. It's just as time goes on he starts losing a grasp of that identity. As for why he didn't age from 2007 and 2016 (2007 is when the identity of Charles White is first mentioned) . I am not really sure if 8 years would be proof to show him immortality and this isn't if we assume Simon was compromised by Tobias making him forget about Dorian Gray. .
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Post by nottenst on Jan 26, 2017 16:41:52 GMT
Now that I have listened to the Behind the Scenes interviews, I am thinking that the entirety of Ever After was in Dorian's head. After Lucifer revealed that he took over Toby's body, Dorian had a breakdown and we are seeing the results. He might be in a different asylum imagining the one we hear or he might just be lying in bed the whole time.
Of course, as discussed in this thread there are many interpretations, but that's the one I am going with right now.
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