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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2016 23:11:33 GMT
Hey everyone,
I thought this might make an intresting discussion topic: what if Tom Baker hadn't left in 1981? Would John Nathan Turner have stayed on as producer? Would the BBC have decided to end (given how iconic and definitive he had become in the eyes of the public) the series without a subsequent Doctor? I can imagine that any modern revival would have been more informed by Tom's take, rather the consistent characteristics of The Doctor, for instance.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Nov 9, 2016 12:33:15 GMT
I definitely think it would have been a more tired performance from Tom i think. Especially given the length of time in the role. And sadly i think the series may have been cancelled a few years earlier than it was
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2016 13:00:34 GMT
I definitely think it would have been a more tired performance from Tom i think. Especially given the length of time in the role. And sadly i think the series may have been cancelled a few years earlier than it was Yeah, there were rumblings that he was growing increasingly dissatisfied with the role at the time, so I think either JNT would have learnt how to cope with him or he'd have walked away to work on other productions. It would have been very interesting to see him do stories like The Visitation and Kinda, but honestly, I think they would have capped the show sometime during the Saward era. Doctor Who's final hurrah could maybe have come with Season 20 and The Four Doctors anniversary special. Actually, it would have lent the show a certain sense of completeness, seeing Four battle Omega, meet up again with the Brigadier, banish the Black Guardian one last time and finally come home to Gallifrey. They could've played up the Doctor saying his goodbyes to Tegan and Turlough, stepping into the transmat to become Lord President... Only to have him completely change his mind and go back to travelling instead. "Why not, eh? After all... That's how it all started." That inimicable toothy grin straight at the camera and we get a montage of every Doctor, every companion, every major villain. A final dramatis personae playing over the celebratory (and now iconic) Howell rendition of the main theme, building up to a climax during the credits and then a final white out. The show bows out at the critical juncture where opinion at the BBC had begun to sour towards the programme, not the least because this anniversary special went over the allotted budget for the season. Nevertheless, the public see it as a final, triumphant hurrah to one of Britain's longest running science fiction shows, lasting for a good, solid twenty years with four stellar actors in the title role.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Nov 9, 2016 13:06:03 GMT
I definitely think it would have been a more tired performance from Tom i think. Especially given the length of time in the role. And sadly i think the series may have been cancelled a few years earlier than it was Yeah, there were rumblings that he was growing increasingly dissatisfied with the role at the time, so I think either JNT would have learnt how to cope with him or he'd have walked away to work on other productions. It would have been very interesting to see him do stories like The Visitation and Kinda, but honestly, I think they would have capped the show sometime during the Saward era. Doctor Who's final hurrah could maybe have come with Season 20 and The Four Doctors anniversary special. Actually, it would have lent the show a certain sense of completeness, seeing Four battle Omega, meet up again with the Brigadier, banish the Black Guardian one last time and finally come home to Gallifrey. They could've played up the Doctor saying his goodbyes to Tegan and Turlough, stepping into the transmat to become Lord President... Only to have him completely change his mind and go back to travelling instead. "Why not, eh? After all... That's how it all started." That inimicable toothy grin straight at the camera and we get a montage of every Doctor, every companion, every major villain. A final dramatis personae playing over the celebratory (and now iconic) Howell rendition of the main theme, building up to a climax during the credits and then a final white out. The show bows out at the critical juncture where opinion at the BBC had begun to sour towards the programme, not the least because this anniversary special went over the allotted budget for the season. Nevertheless, the public see it as a final, triumphant hurrah to one of Britain's longest running science fiction shows, lasting for a good, solid twenty years with four stellar actors in the title role. I agree and if and when the show was revived, we would have had a 'Fifth Doctor', No Renegeration scene and it would have explained maybe in flashback in a story showing how Tom became the new guy and it would be old Tom who regenerates ,so a BF like company could do a series of adventures for Four set in between the gap between Old and New and the books they would have done. (Like how Sylvester thinks the 8 run should have been)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2016 17:44:40 GMT
Tom looked bored by the end, he seemed on auto-pilot, so it was definitely time for him to go. Had Tom stayed longer, who knows what actually would have happened? But if we had got more disinterested performances from Tom, it surely wouldn't have been good for the show in the long run.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2016 19:08:49 GMT
If he hadn't left, I think that Season 19 would have been radically different.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2016 1:30:30 GMT
I agree and if and when the show was revived, we would have had a 'Fifth Doctor', No Renegeration scene and it would have explained maybe in flashback in a story showing how Tom became the new guy and it would be old Tom who regenerates ,so a BF like company could do a series of adventures for Four set in between the gap between Old and New and the books they would have done. (Like how Sylvester thinks the 8 run should have been) Ooh, maybe not even in flashback. They could've done something similar to the Doctor's puterspace encounter in Love and War, where he's forced to relive his third self's ten-year regeneration over and over again. Mm, that would've worked rather well, something like The Dying Days where we start in media res with the Doctor having regenerated sometime ago. I'm struggling to think of who would play the Fifth Doctor though. It would've been very influenced by Tom Baker, as the revived series was by the New Adventures... BRIAN BLESSED? David Warner? David Suchet? If he hadn't left, I think that Season 19 would have been radically different. Castrovalva certainly wouldn't have happened in the way that it did, nor would have Four to Doomsday. Christopher Bailey's original interpretation of the Doctor as a wise hermit would've been in place for Kinda, but the frustration and anger in Five for The Visitation wouldn't have needed much changing. Indeed, I think The Visitation would've been a favourite of the season being essentially Holmes-Lite with Mace. I can just see Tom Baker kicking the console in frustration as an ad-lib. Black Orchid would have been right out in favour of something completely different I imagine that the whole thing would have been a lot more physical towards the end with Earthshock. The Doctor would probably have been much closer to what we saw in Ian Marter's novelisation ("I never surrender, it's far too boring.") than on television. It wouldn't have been a case of him unable to act, so much as being forced onto his knees by the Cybermen.
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aztec
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Post by aztec on Nov 10, 2016 9:53:57 GMT
Tom looked bored by the end, he seemed on auto-pilot, so it was definitely time for him to go. Had Tom stayed longer, who knows what actually would have happened? But if we had got more disinterested performances from Tom, it surely wouldn't have been good for the show in the long run. I literally finished watching Tom Baker's era last week, and I have to agree. Although I liked the sense of foreboding that hung over the series and Baker's more withdrawn sombre performance was a surprising change he looked kinda bored and tired in the last few serials, and frankly I had got kind bored by the 4th Doctor towards the end, Baker is a very charismatic, eccentric screen presence but I've never rated him as a actor with a huge deal of range, it often felt like he was merely playing himself as the Doctor (though that may be bias on my part, I was already familiar with Baker from interviews and other roles after Who before I watched much of his doctor) and seven years was definitely too long with no real character growth. Adric and Four made a surprisingly refreshing team though...
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Nov 10, 2016 12:22:37 GMT
I agree and if and when the show was revived, we would have had a 'Fifth Doctor', No Renegeration scene and it would have explained maybe in flashback in a story showing how Tom became the new guy and it would be old Tom who regenerates ,so a BF like company could do a series of adventures for Four set in between the gap between Old and New and the books they would have done. (Like how Sylvester thinks the 8 run should have been) Ooh, maybe not even in flashback. They could've done something similar to the Doctor's puterspace encounter in Love and War, where he's forced to relive his third self's ten-year regeneration over and over again. Mm, that would've worked rather well, something like The Dying Days where we start in media res with the Doctor having regenerated sometime ago. I'm struggling to think of who would play the Fifth Doctor though. It would've been very influenced by Tom Baker, as the revived series was by the New Adventures... BRIAN BLESSED? David Warner? David Suchet? Ooooo either way it would have been interesting. I would prefer the flashback, but that Puterspace bit would work as well. So we'd get to see it without seeing it essentially. I'd say either David Warner or Anthony Stewart Head, depending on when this "Revival" happened of course
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2016 15:57:56 GMT
Adric and Four made a surprisingly refreshing team though... Let's hope Big Finish think so too!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2016 1:16:50 GMT
Adric and Four made a surprisingly refreshing team though... Let's hope Big Finish think so too! I'd love to see them do a story pastiching The Name of the Rose, Four and Adric would be ideal for it with their aged wizard/young apprentice dynamic. Ooh, maybe not even in flashback. They could've done something similar to the Doctor's puterspace encounter in Love and War, where he's forced to relive his third self's ten-year regeneration over and over again. Mm, that would've worked rather well, something like The Dying Days where we start in media res with the Doctor having regenerated sometime ago. I'm struggling to think of who would play the Fifth Doctor though. It would've been very influenced by Tom Baker, as the revived series was by the New Adventures... BRIAN BLESSED? David Warner? David Suchet? Ooooo either way it would have been interesting. I would prefer the flashback, but that Puterspace bit would work as well. So we'd get to see it without seeing it essentially. I'd say either David Warner or Anthony Stewart Head, depending on when this "Revival" happened of course Yeah. Okay, let's say for the sake of argument that Anthony Stewart Head turned up in a 1999 revival of the show as it was roughly fifteen years in our real Wilderness. Where would we start? Logically, the show would still be on that harder edge of science fiction as of when it ended in 1982/3. That's a lot of time to pass and I suspect that there would be a greater effort to avoid the most "recent" Doctor for the sake of variety, so we may have had stories closer to what we saw in the Pat Troughton or Jon Pertwee era. Given people's fondness for the Übermensch Cybermen during the 1980s, I think we may have had a Cyber-story before a Dalek one. They also featured very heavily in the anniversary special, which may have been a contributing factor. No idea what the story would be, although it certainly would've been more action-orientated.
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Post by constonks on Nov 11, 2016 3:36:09 GMT
If he hadn't left in 81, he would have left in 82. Tom was so done by the end that another year would have made no difference... although his final story being Time-Flight is a rather chilling notion...
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Nov 11, 2016 12:27:58 GMT
Ooooo either way it would have been interesting. I would prefer the flashback, but that Puterspace bit would work as well. So we'd get to see it without seeing it essentially. I'd say either David Warner or Anthony Stewart Head, depending on when this "Revival" happened of course Yeah. Okay, let's say for the sake of argument that Anthony Stewart Head turned up in a 1999 revival of the show as it was roughly fifteen years in our real Wilderness. Where would we start? Logically, the show would still be on that harder edge of science fiction as of when it ended in 1982/3. That's a lot of time to pass and I suspect that there would be a greater effort to avoid the most "recent" Doctor for the sake of variety, so we may have had stories closer to what we saw in the Pat Troughton or Jon Pertwee era. Given people's fondness for the Übermensch Cybermen during the 1980s, I think we may have had a Cyber-story before a Dalek one. They also featured very heavily in the anniversary special, which may have been a contributing factor. No idea what the story would be, although it certainly would've been more action-orientated. Yeah I'd say it would be a mix of Late Troughton/ Early Pertwee. The first serial would probably be a version of Rose with a dash of Aliens of London/World War Three. Then the second or third serial would be the Cybermen.
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aztec
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Post by aztec on Nov 11, 2016 12:30:09 GMT
If he hadn't left in 81, he would have left in 82. Tom was so done by the end that another year would have made no difference... although his final story being Time-Flight is a rather chilling notion... Agreed, I really can't imagine him doing an 8th year, frankly I think 7 was too long anyway.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Nov 11, 2016 12:39:57 GMT
Season 18 would be completely different!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2016 15:26:07 GMT
If he hadn't left in 81, he would have left in 82. Tom was so done by the end that another year would have made no difference... although his final story being Time-Flight is a rather chilling notion... Maybe he could have just continued right up to the present day. We might be needing to think of replacing him around now though.
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Post by kalendorf on Nov 12, 2016 3:53:01 GMT
I think had he stayed, Season 18 would've ran as normal up to Warrior's Gate. But I think a lot of the decisions JNT made after then were done to cushion Tom's departure, and if Tom was staying on, maybe he wouldn't have added the new Master and so many extra companions. So Adric might've remained the single companion to Tom. Keeper of Traken would've been just a one-off for Nyssa and the Melkur would have been an original villain rather than the Master. Logopolis probably wouldn't have been written at all (it was last-minute scripting). Infact the season might've ended instead on an earlier version of Time-Flight.
Not sure what Season 19 would've been like. We'd have probably lost Castrovalva. Maybe there might've been a female Aussie companion added so that Kinda could work, and because JNT was keen to promote the show down under. I'm not quite sure The Visitation and Earthshock would've worked with Tom, given he was getting older and less able to do the physical action, and would've looked too out of sorts wielding guns and shooting Cybermen as Davison did, and infact Tom himself might've protested doing the story on those grounds.
However there were some health concerns with him carrying on doing the show at that point, given how tired and ill he became in Season 18, and that would've continued had he stayed on, so he'd have had to leave possibly at Season 19's end instead, and with Bidmead having left, his regeneration story would've been something quite different.
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Post by kalendorf on Nov 12, 2016 5:56:43 GMT
I definitely think it would have been a more tired performance from Tom i think. Especially given the length of time in the role. And sadly i think the series may have been cancelled a few years earlier than it was Yeah, there were rumblings that he was growing increasingly dissatisfied with the role at the time, so I think either JNT would have learnt how to cope with him or he'd have walked away to work on other productions. It would have been very interesting to see him do stories like The Visitation and Kinda, but honestly, I think they would have capped the show sometime during the Saward era. Doctor Who's final hurrah could maybe have come with Season 20 and The Four Doctors anniversary special. Actually, it would have lent the show a certain sense of completeness, seeing Four battle Omega, meet up again with the Brigadier, banish the Black Guardian one last time and finally come home to Gallifrey. They could've played up the Doctor saying his goodbyes to Tegan and Turlough, stepping into the transmat to become Lord President... Only to have him completely change his mind and go back to travelling instead. "Why not, eh? After all... That's how it all started." That inimicable toothy grin straight at the camera and we get a montage of every Doctor, every companion, every major villain. A final dramatis personae playing over the celebratory (and now iconic) Howell rendition of the main theme, building up to a climax during the credits and then a final white out. The show bows out at the critical juncture where opinion at the BBC had begun to sour towards the programme, not the least because this anniversary special went over the allotted budget for the season. Nevertheless, the public see it as a final, triumphant hurrah to one of Britain's longest running science fiction shows, lasting for a good, solid twenty years with four stellar actors in the title role. I have sometimes wondered whether The Five Doctors could've been a fitting end to the show. But I can never quite get a stable balance between the pros and cons. On the one hand, there is a nice endgame to all the Doctors being brought together back home to discover ghosts of the past and the oldest Gallifreyan secret. On the other, it seems the greater, most pressing problem of the last three years of the Master being a constant plague of the Doctor and greater danger to the cosmos than even the Daleks, goes unresolved yet again with him back on the loose, despite some vague assurances from Rassilon that his comeuppance will be due soon. On the one hand, Hartnell's promise 'one day I shall come back' to Susan back in 1964 is finally resolved by having them reunited again. On the other, The Five Doctors seems to have very little to do with where the rest of the Davison era has been going, if it's been going anywhere for that matter. On the one hand, "why not, that's how it all started" is a great full circle note to end the show on. On the other, the collective effect of Season 20's revisitations of unresolved continuity points, and that The King's Demons makes the Master seem an even more tiresome, overindulged foe beforehand, makes it feel like the show has dragged itself out, digging its heels in, only to come to a stop halfway through. On the one hand, the moment where the Doctors' link minds and break Davison free of Borusa's control feels like the conclusion to what Snakedance had hinted about Davison having to conquer his own inner doubts to become the hero he was again. On the other, so much of the season seems to regress him again, so it feels like another example of more fits and starts for Davison, than consistent growth. On the one hand, it feels like a great companion piece and capstone to the Black Guardian trilogy and its ethereal elements and quest narrative, particularly in Enlightenment. On the other, The King's Demons feels like a needless fly in the ointment and yet another wrong turn that makes it hard to trust in any sense of a destination being reached. On the one hand, the winning contrast between the Doctor and Master is how we see our hero has led a rich life of accumulated friendships and wisdom, whilst the Master is ultimately friendless and alone, and ultimately dejected by the Brigadier. On the other, Davison's era, with the Doctor half the man he was, and many of the stories feeling similarly unsuccessfully irredentist, still doesn't feel complete in the way Tom's era already did when his second season wrapped up on Seeds of Doom. On the one hand The Five Doctors feels as good a finale as Season 20 would ever get, and the capstone we were really waiting for after losing Resurrection to the strike. On the other, it feels preceded by gratuitous padding and filler stories rather than a natural journey to this point. On the one hand, ending it here would spare us Warriors of the Deep and Twin Dilemma. On the other, does The Five Doctors truly succeed in kissing better the disappointment of Time-Flight, and if not, wouldn't Logopolis be the better ending point? In many ways I suppose Tom still being the current incumbent would've made a difference to a lot of the above. His era already felt complete enough to not need a bigger ending than The Five Doctors. We could believe his Doctor would still hold his own in the duel with his foe. He would give greater weight and cohesive gravity to Seasons 19 and 20 to cpounteract their otherwise seeming aimless erraticness.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2016 7:21:23 GMT
Yeah, there were rumblings that he was growing increasingly dissatisfied with the role at the time, so I think either JNT would have learnt how to cope with him or he'd have walked away to work on other productions. It would have been very interesting to see him do stories like The Visitation and Kinda, but honestly, I think they would have capped the show sometime during the Saward era. Doctor Who's final hurrah could maybe have come with Season 20 and The Four Doctors anniversary special. Actually, it would have lent the show a certain sense of completeness, seeing Four battle Omega, meet up again with the Brigadier, banish the Black Guardian one last time and finally come home to Gallifrey. They could've played up the Doctor saying his goodbyes to Tegan and Turlough, stepping into the transmat to become Lord President... Only to have him completely change his mind and go back to travelling instead. "Why not, eh? After all... That's how it all started." That inimicable toothy grin straight at the camera and we get a montage of every Doctor, every companion, every major villain. A final dramatis personae playing over the celebratory (and now iconic) Howell rendition of the main theme, building up to a climax during the credits and then a final white out. The show bows out at the critical juncture where opinion at the BBC had begun to sour towards the programme, not the least because this anniversary special went over the allotted budget for the season. Nevertheless, the public see it as a final, triumphant hurrah to one of Britain's longest running science fiction shows, lasting for a good, solid twenty years with four stellar actors in the title role. In many ways I suppose Tom still being the current incumbent would've made a difference to a lot of the above. His era already felt complete enough to not need a bigger ending than The Five Doctors. We could believe his Doctor would still hold his own in the duel with his foe. He would give greater weight and cohesive gravity to Seasons 19 and 20 to counteract their otherwise seeming aimless erraticness. The Fifth Doctor for me doesn't quite reach his potential until Season 21 when he's a much more active force, deliberately taking part and making decisions like in Frontios, Planet of Fire and naturally The Caves of Androzani. His earliest appearance at his strongest is ironically Four to Doomsday, the first story where Davison participated in the role. There's an edge of frustration and a hint of aggression that works for his character, even at his weakest points such as his assassination of Davros in Resurrection of the Daleks.In terms of his health, I've seen an episode of In terms of his health, I've seen an episode of Remington Steele where Tom looks fit as ever, running down a corridor, shooting a gun at Pierce Brosnan, so it may not have been too much of an issue in later years. Some of the brunt would definitely have been picked up by his companions though, I can see Tegan obliterating the Cyber-Leader and the Doctor smacking the gun from her hands. I also feel that knowing the programme's end was on the horizon, they would have attempted to wrap up a few threads as much as they possibly could. Perhaps there wouldn't have been a final end for the Daleks and the Cybermen (nor I think should there be when the show ends), but I can see the Master being extradited for trial by the Time Lords or a victim of one of Rassilon's traps thanks to the Brigadier. Yeah. Okay, let's say for the sake of argument that Anthony Stewart Head turned up in a 1999 revival of the show as it was roughly fifteen years in our real Wilderness. Where would we start? Logically, the show would still be on that harder edge of science fiction as of when it ended in 1982/3. That's a lot of time to pass and I suspect that there would be a greater effort to avoid the most "recent" Doctor for the sake of variety, so we may have had stories closer to what we saw in the Pat Troughton or Jon Pertwee era. Given people's fondness for the Übermensch Cybermen during the 1980s, I think we may have had a Cyber-story before a Dalek one. They also featured very heavily in the anniversary special, which may have been a contributing factor. No idea what the story would be, although it certainly would've been more action-orientated. Yeah I'd say it would be a mix of Late Troughton/ Early Pertwee. The first serial would probably be a version of Rose with a dash of Aliens of London/World War Three. Then the second or third serial would be the Cybermen. I was thinking something very much in the vein of Red Dawn which feels very strongly like a 1990s story in a way that other stories rarely do. A story that's a mix of Contact and The X-Files with the wonders of the universe and a human conspiracy. Pre-millennium when we had that sixties sense of fun in our fiction still. I think there's a strong probability that the Fifth Doctor would have regenerated on an alien world and fallen in with them for a little while or been similarly done in at some point in Earth's future. Given that particular decade's love for worldbuilding, we'd have seen quite a lot of detail from either scenario.
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Post by Timelord007 on Nov 12, 2016 9:48:13 GMT
You all know Tom's my favourite Doctor & I'm loving his resurgence on audio with Big Finish but he was right to leave when he did, his heart isn't in any of the stories & looks bored this season probably because of his clashes over scripts, being told to tone down the humour & as Tom said "i just wanted to be gone"plus his on/off relationship with Lalla Ward & clashes with John Nathan Turner couldn't have made for easy working relationships & must have created a tense atmosphere on set.
The show was changing & so must the Doctor, season 19 is one of my favourite seasons i think Peter Davison was excellent & loved Nyssa, Tegan & Adric as a 7 year old eating sausage & chips at 6:35pm Monday's & Tuesday's.
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