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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2017 8:21:58 GMT
I feel the current series follows a 'safe' pattern, last season Clara was given a great death in Face The Raven but Moffat couldn't let that be it & brought her back for a atrocious season finale & a corny ending.
I think the show needs a new direction, darker gritty episodes & have the ability to shock & surprise the audience, maybe have the Doctor make a mistake & have to face up to the consequences of his actions.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jan 7, 2017 14:04:45 GMT
Good luck getting away with Transit or No Future on Saturday tea time. Nothing like bleak and violent dystopia over fish fingers. I think there's a happy medium tucked away in there, I used to watch reruns Blake's 7 at that time. Bleak and violent dystopia was rad, I had a lot of fun. That's not even counting things like the old Sonic the Hedgehog television series where people got roboticised against their will and their world is an environmental catastrophe or Captain Scarlet which was about the attempted genocide of the human race by another (at first, sympathetic) species that was completely wiped out over a misunderstanding. It's just a natural part of the setting, people die and it's sad because we care that they've been lost. It's much the same with ten-year-olds watching horror films to scare themselves. Again, we are agreed in the medium, but my point was more if you can go really bleak. Transit maybe, but other stories akin to are a bit more relentless in their pessimism, and imparting that on children is something that has to be done carefully. Also, to a different point about dark and gritty, be careful what you wish for. I don't think even the most diehard Moffat detractor would want Who to become like a Garth Ennis Punisher comic.
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aztec
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Post by aztec on Jan 7, 2017 14:06:08 GMT
Imagine if they pulled a Lucie Miller/To The Death style ending with Bill in Series 10...
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Post by sherlock on Jan 7, 2017 14:07:01 GMT
I feel the current series follows a 'safe' pattern, last season Clara was given a great death in Face The Raven but Moffat couldn't let that be it & brought her back for a atrocious season finale & a corny ending. I think the show needs a new direction, darker gritty episodes & have the ability to shock & surprise the audience, maybe have the Doctor make a mistake & have to face up to the consequences of his actions. That sounds a lot like Class. It basically exists to explore darker ideas in the Whoniverse and it certainly takes some surprising turns.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2017 23:54:54 GMT
I think there's a happy medium tucked away in there, I used to watch reruns Blake's 7 at that time. Bleak and violent dystopia was rad, I had a lot of fun. That's not even counting things like the old Sonic the Hedgehog television series where people got roboticised against their will and their world is an environmental catastrophe or Captain Scarlet which was about the attempted genocide of the human race by another (at first, sympathetic) species that was completely wiped out over a misunderstanding. It's just a natural part of the setting, people die and it's sad because we care that they've been lost. It's much the same with ten-year-olds watching horror films to scare themselves. Again, we are agreed in the medium, but my point was more if you can go really bleak. Transit maybe, but other stories akin to are a bit more relentless in their pessimism, and imparting that on children is something that has to be done carefully. Also, to a different point about dark and gritty, be careful what you wish for. I don't think even the most diehard Moffat detractor would want Who to become like a Garth Ennis Punisher comic. I'd say it depended on what exactly they did with the character of the Doctor. As long as he remained an optimistic symbol of hope in this really, really dark environment, I think you could do it. Particularly if you emphasised that such an outlook is actually possible. The Dalek Invasion of Earth has Barbara rush in to help Tyler free Ian and the Doctor from the saucer without any regard for her own life, The Caves of Androzani's "I owe it to my friend to try because I got her into this, so you see I'm not going to let you stop me now!" speaks for itself. As long as the Doctor and his companions are heroic, truly heroic, I don't think there's really an issue. I like the Don Bluth approach where it doesn't matter however grim your story gets, so long as you have a genuinely happy ending, you can get away with it.
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Post by doctorkernow on Jan 8, 2017 19:53:49 GMT
Hello again. I think Doctor Who on television should broadly appeal to a wide audience. It should tell the wide range of stories that the format allows. Continuity should be applied lightly. A story should be accesible to the casual viewer but reward long-term viewers too.
I think stories can challenge and feature disturbing themes without being gratuitous. Variety and consistency are Doctor Who's necessary features. Variety because if you don't like one story another will come along that you do like. Consistency involves having high production values throughout a season.
Doctor Who is a difficult programme to write for and to make. Every week a different setting, a different story to be told. We are fortunate that for every bad story there are still some good stories being made. Also no one sets out to make a 'bad' story.
We all have our own ideas of what Who should be like. My own view is that it should be like nothing else on television. It is a family programme that can be viewed on many levels. It needs to continue to enchant children with its magic; as children can be the most critical viewers of any programme.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Feb 18, 2017 0:39:25 GMT
Not a bad time, with change so close, to also discuss the Doctor's position as role model.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2017 6:03:17 GMT
Not a bad time, with change so close, to also discuss the Doctor's position as role model. Well, let's look at one of his most controversial incarnations, Sixie. I don't think most people would consider him to be a good role model at first glance, but when you pare down his character layer-by-layer you get a very interesting message. He started off his life as fundamentally disturbed, you could even argue in some respects that he was broken by this regeneration, but through a long progression across decades you get to see him reach his low point (i.e. his trial), the immediate aftermath where he tries to isolate himself from the cosmos, even commit suicide and then we see him come to accept himself and push forward. Even from the darkest of situations, you can push forward. You can choose to be a better person and you have the strength within you to make it happen. The Doctor's first incarnation starts off as basically a morality play about taking responsibility for your own actions. Barbara holds him accountable for what he did on Skaro and as a result of him admitting his faults and her accepting his own self-awareness (something that adults struggle with, nevermind children), their friendship grows a great deal closer. Everyone's very fond of each other by the time of The Dalek Invasion of Earth and he's even picked up some of his interlopers' moral attributes. He was even prepared to put himself in danger and kill in The Rescue to defend their lives from a madman. They're both really superb characters for showing that change begins within yourself and that sometimes the best people, the ones that actually pull through and help in the end, are those who had muddied beginnings.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2017 12:11:01 GMT
Not a bad time, with change so close, to also discuss the Doctor's position as role model. Well, let's look at one of his most controversial incarnations, Sixie. I don't think most people would consider him to be a good role model at first glance, but when you pare down his character layer-by-layer you get a very interesting message. He started off his life as fundamentally disturbed, you could even argue in some respects that he was broken by this regeneration, but through a long progression across decades you get to see him reach his low point (i.e. his trial), the immediate aftermath where he tries to isolate himself from the cosmos, even commit suicide and then we see him come to accept himself and push forward. Even from the darkest of situations, you can push forward. You can choose to be a better person and you have the strength within you to make it happen. The Doctor's first incarnation starts off as basically a morality play about taking responsibility for your own actions. Barbara holds him accountable for what he did on Skaro and as a result of him admitting his faults and her accepting his own self-awareness (something that adults struggle with, nevermind children), their friendship grows a great deal closer. Everyone's very fond of each other by the time of The Dalek Invasion of Earth and he's even picked up some of his interlopers' moral attributes. He was even prepared to put himself in danger and kill in The Rescue to defend their lives from a madman. They're both really superb characters for showing that change begins within yourself and that sometimes the best people, the ones that actually pull through and help in the end, are those who had muddied beginnings. I don't disagree, but to bring us back to the original question the kids miss all of that and just see him as rude. My young daughter loved Matt but hates Capaldi because he's shouty and nasty.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2017 23:05:24 GMT
Well, let's look at one of his most controversial incarnations, Sixie. I don't think most people would consider him to be a good role model at first glance, but when you pare down his character layer-by-layer you get a very interesting message. He started off his life as fundamentally disturbed, you could even argue in some respects that he was broken by this regeneration, but through a long progression across decades you get to see him reach his low point (i.e. his trial), the immediate aftermath where he tries to isolate himself from the cosmos, even commit suicide and then we see him come to accept himself and push forward. Even from the darkest of situations, you can push forward. You can choose to be a better person and you have the strength within you to make it happen. The Doctor's first incarnation starts off as basically a morality play about taking responsibility for your own actions. Barbara holds him accountable for what he did on Skaro and as a result of him admitting his faults and her accepting his own self-awareness (something that adults struggle with, nevermind children), their friendship grows a great deal closer. Everyone's very fond of each other by the time of The Dalek Invasion of Earth and he's even picked up some of his interlopers' moral attributes. He was even prepared to put himself in danger and kill in The Rescue to defend their lives from a madman. They're both really superb characters for showing that change begins within yourself and that sometimes the best people, the ones that actually pull through and help in the end, are those who had muddied beginnings. I don't disagree, but to bring us back to the original question the kids miss all of that and just see him as rude. My young daughter loved Matt but hates Capaldi because he's shouty and nasty. Well, he is rather shouty and nasty. I was watching reruns of Doctor Who stories from way back at The Daleks and I missed quite a lot of the Pat Troughton years because of the missing tapes, so the idea of the Doctor being this fun-loving figure really came to me because of Bill Hartnell and Jon Pertwee. They could be vile to their companions (poor Jo gets the brunt of his frustration in The Mind of Evil), but there was always at least one moment in there where you could see how much they care about the people around them. I'm not entirely sure we get that we get the same thing with the Twelfth Doctor, Clara doesn't really hold her own against him (whether passively like Jo or actively like BF!Peri), so it just comes across as cruel bullying. You're not entirely sure why they travel with one another. I think... If you're going to have an imperfect hero and you should for the benefit of your younger viewers, there should be better attention made to the fact that the relationship between the two leads is a healthy one. It can be scattered with arguments and disagreements, so long as at the end of the day when they grin at each other and laugh, you can believe that it really doesn't matter. They still very obviously care about one another's welfare in a way that doesn't seem like co-dependency.
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Post by mrperson on Feb 20, 2017 2:37:02 GMT
The children can do what I did: record it and watch on Sunday morning.
If they have a problem with shouty and nasty, then they can learn that the Doctor being shouty/nasty is nicety compared to the way reality tends to go....
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Post by number13 on Feb 20, 2017 11:01:00 GMT
I feel the current series follows a 'safe' pattern, last season Clara was given a great death in Face The Raven but Moffat couldn't let that be it & brought her back for a atrocious season finale & a corny ending. I think the show needs a new direction, darker gritty episodes & have the ability to shock & surprise the audience, maybe have the Doctor make a mistake & have to face up to the consequences of his actions. Agree 100%! I was impressed when they had the nerve to allow a companion to die bravely again and the following episode was stunning. But the finale was quite possibly my finale for watching unless I hear there's been a significant shift in direction. None of the great producers of 'Doctor Who' would ever have allowed a storyline in which the Doctor committed murder as a minor distraction. So what if on Gallifrey 'they get up again'? Without special dispensation they only 'get up' a limited number of times and anyway a life is a life. I remember there was controversy when Jon Pertwee's Doctor shot an Ogron (in a battle) without being directly threatened by it first. Higher standards. (And while I'm ranting, how DARE they turn Harry Sullivan into a war criminal by saying he developed a lethal gas by experimenting on captured Zygons. Firstly, in 'Terror of the Zygons' there were no prisoners; the Doctor blew up the ship with most of the Zygons in it, UNIT shot one and the Brig. shot Broton to save the Doctor's life. Secondly, Harry was a bit dim by the Doctor's standards but he was an old-fashioned English gentleman and medical man. There is no way he would have ever have done such a thing. More deliberate trashing of the classic series and real UNIT IMO.) (Rant over ) EDIT: I've just found this was discussed on another thread! Back on topic, what the show needs is a new Robert Holmes to scare half the audience sleepless like in the old days (and of course to hook them on 'Doctor Who' in the process, it worked for us!) We always knew it was just a story and therefore not real, so it was safe and fun to be scared by. The strict no-no was bringing the monsters into domestic settings where they might be too real for comfort. So, Slitheens in the kitchen would have been off-limits, but they are generally ridiculous monsters and made safe by that.
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Post by number13 on Feb 20, 2017 11:36:38 GMT
I was watching reruns of Doctor Who stories from way back at The Daleks and I missed quite a lot of the Pat Troughton years because of the missing tapes, so the idea of the Doctor being this fun-loving figure really came to me because of Bill Hartnell and Jon Pertwee. They could be vile to their companions (poor Jo gets the brunt of his frustration in The Mind of Evil), but there was always at least one moment in there where you could see how much they care about the people around them. 'The Mind of Evil' is really a Season Seven story by author, plot and the Doctor's character, the season where the Doctor was of course in a foul mood for much of the time after having one of his lives taken and being exiled to this primitive planet. It is (I think) Katy Manning's favourite story and certainly Jo is written as a strong and capable UNIT agent. She puts up with the Doctor's moods because she already trusts him completely, in only their second story. ('Colony in Space' is not too dissimilar, presumably the writers hadn't switched over to the new Season 8 style. )
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Post by mrperson on Feb 20, 2017 19:09:43 GMT
I feel the current series follows a 'safe' pattern, last season Clara was given a great death in Face The Raven but Moffat couldn't let that be it & brought her back for a atrocious season finale & a corny ending. I think the show needs a new direction, darker gritty episodes & have the ability to shock & surprise the audience, maybe have the Doctor make a mistake & have to face up to the consequences of his actions. And he doubled-down on it by somewhat reversing Me's own dark non-end: now she has a TARDIS and a deathless Clara to run around with for as long as they want.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 23:51:40 GMT
I was watching reruns of Doctor Who stories from way back at The Daleks and I missed quite a lot of the Pat Troughton years because of the missing tapes, so the idea of the Doctor being this fun-loving figure really came to me because of Bill Hartnell and Jon Pertwee. They could be vile to their companions (poor Jo gets the brunt of his frustration in The Mind of Evil), but there was always at least one moment in there where you could see how much they care about the people around them. 'The Mind of Evil' is really a Season Seven story by author, plot and the Doctor's character, the season where the Doctor was of course in a foul mood for much of the time after having one of his lives taken and being exiled to this primitive planet. It is (I think) Katy Manning's favourite story and certainly Jo is written as a strong and capable UNIT agent. She puts up with the Doctor's moods because she already trusts him completely, in only their second story. ('Colony in Space' is not too dissimilar, presumably the writers hadn't switched over to the new Season 8 style. ) It's one of my favourites too, I really enjoy the Keller Machine being linked not only with Stangmoor Prison, but also the international peace conference and the disposal of a gas missile. I love the implications behind the Master's brief for the Thunderbolt being "British, of course," and the American delegate's greatest fear being an embodiment of Communist Chinese cultural power. It's a story that's all about fear and it doesn't side-step some very real world fears for the time. The way that the scripts are written, I'm very tempted to believe that the intended sequence for the stories was going to be Terror of the Autons, The Mind of Evil, Colony in Space and The Claws of Axos because the Third Doctor is far less brooding when the vampires from space arrive in England. It feels very much like a teething season similar to Tom Baker's first. By the time of The Dæmons, all the now expected Letts era tropes are in play.
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Post by number13 on Feb 21, 2017 0:09:21 GMT
'The Mind of Evil' is really a Season Seven story by author, plot and the Doctor's character, the season where the Doctor was of course in a foul mood for much of the time after having one of his lives taken and being exiled to this primitive planet. It is (I think) Katy Manning's favourite story and certainly Jo is written as a strong and capable UNIT agent. She puts up with the Doctor's moods because she already trusts him completely, in only their second story. ('Colony in Space' is not too dissimilar, presumably the writers hadn't switched over to the new Season 8 style. ) It's one of my favourites too, I really enjoy the Keller Machine being linked not only with Stangmoor Prison, but also the international peace conference and the disposal of a gas missile. I love the implications behind the Master's brief for the Thunderbolt being "British, of course," and the American delegate's greatest fear being an embodiment of Communist Chinese cultural power. It's a story that's all about fear and it doesn't side-step some very real world fears for the time. The way that the scripts are written, I'm very tempted to believe that the intended sequence for the stories was going to be Terror of the Autons, The Mind of Evil, Colony in Space and The Claws of Axos because the Third Doctor is far less brooding when the vampires from space arrive in England. It feels very much like a teething season similar to Tom Baker's first. By the time of The Dæmons, all the now expected Letts era tropes are in play. I think that might very well be right, because in 'Axos' there is that sub-plot about the Doctor appearing to be willing to abandon Earth, to trick the Master into helping him fly the TARDIS, dragging Axos into the Time Loop. He plans to leave for good after saving Earth again, but is boomeranged back by the Time Lords. It does feel like a moment of transition when he seems to accept the reality of his still being exiled even if he could get the TARDIS working, and maybe relaxes a bit from then on.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2017 0:16:30 GMT
It's one of my favourites too, I really enjoy the Keller Machine being linked not only with Stangmoor Prison, but also the international peace conference and the disposal of a gas missile. I love the implications behind the Master's brief for the Thunderbolt being "British, of course," and the American delegate's greatest fear being an embodiment of Communist Chinese cultural power. It's a story that's all about fear and it doesn't side-step some very real world fears for the time. The way that the scripts are written, I'm very tempted to believe that the intended sequence for the stories was going to be Terror of the Autons, The Mind of Evil, Colony in Space and The Claws of Axos because the Third Doctor is far less brooding when the vampires from space arrive in England. It feels very much like a teething season similar to Tom Baker's first. By the time of The Dæmons, all the now expected Letts era tropes are in play. I think that might very well be right, because in 'Axos' there is that sub-plot about the Doctor appearing to be willing to abandon Earth, to trick the Master into helping him fly the TARDIS, dragging Axos into the Time Loop. He plans to leave for good after saving Earth again, but is boomeranged back by the Time Lords. It does feel like a moment of transition when he seems to accept the reality of his exile and maybe relaxes a bit from then on. Mmm, I think that's the moment where we start to see him treat Earth a great deal more like his home away from home, something I don't think would be fully realised until The Green Death or thereabouts. By The Time Warrior, he's well and truly become involved with UNIT's affairs and is even helping the Brigadier out with solving a mysterious brain drain.
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Post by number13 on Feb 21, 2017 0:25:19 GMT
And the clincher is at the end of 'Planet of the Spiders': "The TARDIS brought me home." No other incarnation would call Earth 'home' like that, it's a beautiful moment signing off on a unique era.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2017 1:58:33 GMT
And the clincher is at the end of 'Planet of the Spiders': "The TARDIS brought me home." No other incarnation would call Earth 'home' like that, it's a beautiful moment signing off on a unique era. Even more incredible when you learn he spent ten long years lost in the vortex before he finally made it back.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2017 8:48:19 GMT
I feel the current series follows a 'safe' pattern, last season Clara was given a great death in Face The Raven but Moffat couldn't let that be it & brought her back for a atrocious season finale & a corny ending. I think the show needs a new direction, darker gritty episodes & have the ability to shock & surprise the audience, maybe have the Doctor make a mistake & have to face up to the consequences of his actions. And he doubled-down on it by somewhat reversing Me's own dark non-end: now she has a TARDIS and a deathless Clara to run around with for as long as they want. Watching that finale just made me want to hurl things at the tv screen, i loathed Me as a character anyway & Claras resurrection & having her travelling with Me at the end of the episode felt at the time yet another unnecessary spin off show on it's way. And why was Gallifrey even in this episode because it hardly served as a plot device, just a scene with the Doctor having soup & exiling Rassilon. As Number 13 said what they mentioned about Harry Sullivan creating a lethal gas that infuriated me as that is not who Harry is as a character & i don't believe for a moment he'd partake in creating something that would kill thousands. Sadly the days of Robert Holmes genius knack of scaring us s..tless are long gone, we can't be scaring young children nowadays instead we must churn out this fluffy written bafflegab with farting aliens which makes hardly any sense. I don't envy Chibnall he's got his work cut out.
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