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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jan 13, 2017 21:04:26 GMT
Take this whatever direction you wish, but do you feel like society, even from a young age, pushes failure on us as some kind of unpardonable sin, a crime against humanity, and doesn't adequately teach it as simply being another part of life, as much as success can be?
From my view, failure isn't the problem. You can't win all the time, after all. It's not learning from it that is.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jan 14, 2017 0:31:46 GMT
I was beginning to think that we were starting to come to terms with the fact that not everyone is a success at everything: I see a heap of posts on social media celebrating things like "I managed to 'adult' today" or "achievement unlocked: got dressed." Hopefully that means that we are coming to terms with measuring success/ failure less as a "one size fits all" and more as a continuum.
Conversely, and I see this more on political/ social issues, some people (on any side of a debate) seem to be less willing to compromise and give ground on issues which makes success as a measure of "having goals reached" become more difficult, if not impossible, to reach. Failure is seen by these sorts of people as a badge of honour meaning "We didn't give up our principles so NOBODY got what they wanted."
There's also fandom: we've been spoiled these days by such high-quality productions that when something comes along that is simply "okay" it is harangued and vilified because it isn't "brilliant" or "new." But thanks to modern life we've come to "competitise" everything so the stakes for anything become impossibly high.
A lot of it comes down to how much investment you have in success and how you've been taught to deal with failure. I can understand and cope with people being poor losers, but I detest what I call "poor winners," people who view others as obstacles or stepping stones and then blame others for their success - "We didn't win by enough!" This lack of resilience means that even succeeding isn't enough unless they "crush the lesser races" in their achievements.
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Post by constonks on Jan 14, 2017 2:19:00 GMT
I think it's Bill Gates who said "Success is a terrible teacher."* That about sums it up for me.
*EDIT: I failed to Google that before posting and now I've learned it's an even better quote: "Success is a lousy teacher. It seduces smart people into thinking they can't lose." Failure in action!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2017 2:39:42 GMT
Yes... There's been a worrying trend in particular circles of global society where having succeeded doesn't satisfy the victors. For some, they've resorted to what's called the post-Clausewitzean approach to conflict wherein success is not measured by whether or not your side came out on top, but instead whether or not there is another side that exists in opposition to your method of thought. It's the kind of mentality that strikes me as less about being right and more about proving the other side wrong. A certain kind of winner cannot abide any kind of loser.
Seeing it from the perspective of fiction, there are a lot more children's stories nowadays that deal with the concept of failure in its many forms and the leaps forward that have been made with mental health have lead to self-knowledge being a very important aspect worth exploring. Inside Out dealt with the necessity of sadness as part of growing up, The Amazing World of Gumball spent an entire episode exploring various expressions of love (including the inexpressible) without judgment and Steven Universe with the importance of forgiving yourself for transgressions beyond your control and learning from them. Failure is one of those inescapable aspects of life and it's good to see that there are avenues where not only are people learning how to cope with their losses, but they are also discovering that perhaps they weren't errors as they were first initially told.
To take a personal example, I grew very fond of a girl who I spent a fair amount of time with and offered to start a relationship with. That didn't happen, she said she wasn't ready and declined the offer as was her right as a human being. I am still unconditionally her friend and am very proud of that fact, yet there are some sectors that would consider that a "failure" because it did not evolve into a romantic relationship. That to me completely ignores the successes of that event and reminded me of how people sometimes treat their successes as failures because they did not match up to certain expectations placed either on themselves or by those around them. It's possible that "failure" isn't just used to denote a loss, but also to criticise something that doesn't fit their narrow criterion of a success.
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Jan 14, 2017 3:13:34 GMT
Failure is not a dirty word, but quitting is!
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Post by barnabaslives on Jan 14, 2017 3:33:11 GMT
I think we often manage to set bad examples with competitivism, yes - I'm assuming that, for example, performance enhancement in athleticism may attempt to send a message that winning is "everything" and must take place even at excessive cost to the competitors.
Agreed with wolfie53 and any others that success and failure aren't at all necessarily black and white, or always subject to observer definition. (As an observer, though, I'm not sure how successful I think someone is who doesn't seem to derive contentment from success).
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Jan 14, 2017 4:42:00 GMT
winning is not 'everything' but it is an important thing.
That being said, "free time" in soccer is a stupid thing. That's right, I said it.
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Post by muckypup on Jan 14, 2017 7:41:59 GMT
Winning....is the most pointless of pursuits, and success should result in penalty. we should all try to take just enough, and frown on those who take more. Everyone is just as important as the next no one really fails, they just find their place.
We describe people who can run a little way very fast as heroes while criticise they man who Cures the sick and actually makes a difference, because he was running late.
We teach our kids that they can have the world while the sad fact that 95% will never get anywhere near it.
I hate winners, not because I am envious but because it ugly
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Post by Timelord007 on Jan 14, 2017 9:54:00 GMT
Failure is a word my dad used upon me all through my childhood & adolescence, because i achieve what i was supposed to at school.
Despite the fact i was sexually abused at 12 yrs old preyed upon by a vile neighbour & then bullied everyday for three years because i developed OCD & PTSD, i was frowned upon a failure because i didn't achieve top grades.
Well i face my demons everyday, i endured many therapies & treatments to try & cope with my mental health & spoke out about my own personal experiences to try to help others seek help so if I'm deemed a failure i can live with that.
Never strive for perfection as you'll never reach it just do your best & be the best person you can be.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jan 14, 2017 12:40:21 GMT
Some really menaingful and touching responses here.
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Post by acousticwolf on Jan 14, 2017 13:52:07 GMT
We talk about this a lot with the kids. Everywhere they look they are pushed to believing they can "have everything", or be "better than anyone", "failure is not an option" and in school they are not allowed to fail (missed your deadline? Have another one). The reality is that hardly anyone gets everything they want (or deserve) and the majority of us have to make do with what we have (including spots and grey hair).
We try to teach them that whatever they achieve is fine and it's ok to fail (as long as they've tried their best). We should learn from mistakes and failures and grow as individuals.
Cheers
Tony
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Jan 14, 2017 18:13:35 GMT
Winning....is the most pointless of pursuits, and success should result in penalty. we should all try to take just enough, and frown on those who take more. Everyone is just as important as the next no one really fails, they just find their place. We describe people who can run a little way very fast as heroes while criticise they man who Cures the sick and actually makes a difference, because he was running late. We teach our kids that they can have the world while the sad fact that 95% will never get anywhere near it. I hate winners, not because I am envious but because it ugly I bet you are a soccer fan, and have never actually won your own trophy, other than participation in your life? Am I right? Or have I got it figured all wrong? In other words, your whole post says 'loser' to me. Paragraph, by paragraph. If you were as important as a Kardashian, why aren't you on the telly? People who run late constantly have a word for them, it's called lazy. I have taught my kids that they can have the world, 3 of them have fired smart shots at it, one makes more money than I do(and that is saying something.) by driving a truck, one is a single parent who is a nurse, and one is a home care provider making really good money. Only 1 of those went to college, and she makes the least of the 3. I have 1 daughter who wants to sit around smoking dope and bumming off her friends(will she grow up, not my call, I'm just here to catch her if she falls.) So it's not my fault that 95 percent of kids will never have a chance, because they grew up in a society that teaches that winning is wrong, the majority of my kids are winners, so I'm beating your odds pretty good. And you hate winners, while I hate quitters. There's nothing wrong with winning, there's nothing wrong with losing, there is only wrong in giving up and letting the world whip your ass. I love your philosophy, but I don't live in that world, I live in the real one. I come off sounding mean and bullyish, and I don't mean to sound that way, I just type what I think. It's up to yall to interperate that, and decide if it was meant in a mean way, or a respectful way, that informs you of my opinion.
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Jan 14, 2017 18:33:26 GMT
Failure is a word my dad used upon me all through my childhood & adolescence, because i achieve what i was supposed to at school. Despite the fact i was sexually abused at 12 yrs old preyed upon by a vile neighbour & then bullied everyday for three years because i developed OCD & PTSD, i was frowned upon a failure because i didn't achieve top grades. Well i face my demons everyday, i endured many therapies & treatments to try & cope with my mental health & spoke out about my own personal experiences to try to help others seek help so if I'm deemed a failure i can live with that. Never strive for perfection as you'll never reach it just do your best & be the best person you can be. Dude, I'm gonna talk to you like I would a friend at the vfw, while drinking a beer and smoking a rolled cigarette, so close your eyes and smell the smoke. Demons can be whipped, but you gotta get it in your mind that you own them, and they have no control over you, except the control you give em. I give my demons a run about once or twice a month. In other words, I cut loose at least once a month. My second biggest demon is alcohol, mainly beer, so at least once a month, I let it ride. The rest of the time, it craves to get out, and I shut it down. My major demon is sexual desire. I'm a full blown, high testosterone man(watch Last Man Standing, that is close to me) who thinks that every woman is beautiful, and I fight the demon of lust every minute of every day. Not the same demons as you, I understand, but, for me, it's mind over matter, and it's a struggle. I suffer from PTSD, and depression, and have weened myself off of drugs for both. I am suicidal, but that is just a way of making my family suffer while I get to be a quitter, and that is something i'll never let myself do. As you can tell, I don't like quitters. I hope this helps, cause you are one of the few on here that seems to like everybody just because. That's a hard quality to find, and a hard quality to live up to. A quality I admire, and one ill probably never be able to obtain, but, i'll keep tryin.
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Post by muckypup on Jan 14, 2017 20:00:57 GMT
Winning....is the most pointless of pursuits, and success should result in penalty. we should all try to take just enough, and frown on those who take more. Everyone is just as important as the next no one really fails, they just find their place. We describe people who can run a little way very fast as heroes while criticise they man who Cures the sick and actually makes a difference, because he was running late. We teach our kids that they can have the world while the sad fact that 95% will never get anywhere near it. I hate winners, not because I am envious but because it ugly I bet you are a soccer fan, and have never actually won your own trophy, other than participation in your life? Am I right? Or have I got it figured all wrong? In other words, your whole post says 'loser' to me. Paragraph, by paragraph. If you were as important as a Kardashian, why aren't you on the telly? People who run late constantly have a word for them, it's called lazy. I have taught my kids that they can have the world, 3 of them have fired smart shots at it, one makes more money than I do(and that is saying something.) by driving a truck, one is a single parent who is a nurse, and one is a home care provider making really good money. Only 1 of those went to college, and she makes the least of the 3. I have 1 daughter who wants to sit around smoking dope and bumming off her friends(will she grow up, not my call, I'm just here to catch her if she falls.) So it's not my fault that 95 percent of kids will never have a chance, because they grew up in a society that teaches that winning is wrong, the majority of my kids are winners, so I'm beating your odds pretty good. And you hate winners, while I hate quitters. There's nothing wrong with winning, there's nothing wrong with losing, there is only wrong in giving up and letting the world whip your ass. I love your philosophy, but I don't live in that world, I live in the real one. I come off sounding mean and bullyish, and I don't mean to sound that way, I just type what I think. It's up to yall to interperate that, and decide if it was meant in a mean way, or a respectful way, that informs you of my opinion. Sorry buddy, I hate all sports.....I find it futile breeds gang & tribal mentality and as I said utterly pointless. i am no loser or quitter just brought up to share & think of others before myself, my life is a struggle much of the time (but that's a whole not her story) but I get by. But you are missing my point, we give too much credit to sportsmen, pop stars, company CEO's, reality nobody's etc. when the real heroes are the people that make everyone's life work day to day the man who cleans up the shit is branded a failure but take him away and we would all notice just how valuable he is. But just a word buddy, I am a big boy and am happy to have frank discussions to a point, but if you think it sounds mean & disrespectful maybe you should moderate what you write before posting. remember there are rules, being respectful of other members is one of them. One final point....the carcrashdashinans are in no way important in any sense of the world
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2017 20:05:10 GMT
Winning....is the most pointless of pursuits, and success should result in penalty. we should all try to take just enough, and frown on those who take more. Everyone is just as important as the next no one really fails, they just find their place. We describe people who can run a little way very fast as heroes while criticise they man who Cures the sick and actually makes a difference, because he was running late. We teach our kids that they can have the world while the sad fact that 95% will never get anywhere near it. I hate winners, not because I am envious but because it ugly I bet you are a soccer fan, and have never actually won your own trophy, other than participation in your life? Am I right? Or have I got it figured all wrong? In other words, your whole post says 'loser' to me. Paragraph, by paragraph. If you were as important as a Kardashian, why aren't you on the telly? People who run late constantly have a word for them, it's called lazy. [...] I come off sounding mean and bullyish, and I don't mean to sound that way, I just type what I think. It's up to yall to interperate that, and decide if it was meant in a mean way, or a respectful way, that informs you of my opinion. I think I preferred it when you was on your self-imposed ban! On this forum you come across (in some of your posts) as a nasty piece of work. I am glad that you are not my next door neighbour giving me advice over the garden fence anyway, but you are, of course, entitled to your opinions.
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Jan 14, 2017 20:15:40 GMT
I bet you are a soccer fan, and have never actually won your own trophy, other than participation in your life? Am I right? Or have I got it figured all wrong? In other words, your whole post says 'loser' to me. Paragraph, by paragraph. If you were as important as a Kardashian, why aren't you on the telly? People who run late constantly have a word for them, it's called lazy. I have taught my kids that they can have the world, 3 of them have fired smart shots at it, one makes more money than I do(and that is saying something.) by driving a truck, one is a single parent who is a nurse, and one is a home care provider making really good money. Only 1 of those went to college, and she makes the least of the 3. I have 1 daughter who wants to sit around smoking dope and bumming off her friends(will she grow up, not my call, I'm just here to catch her if she falls.) So it's not my fault that 95 percent of kids will never have a chance, because they grew up in a society that teaches that winning is wrong, the majority of my kids are winners, so I'm beating your odds pretty good. And you hate winners, while I hate quitters. There's nothing wrong with winning, there's nothing wrong with losing, there is only wrong in giving up and letting the world whip your ass. I love your philosophy, but I don't live in that world, I live in the real one. I come off sounding mean and bullyish, and I don't mean to sound that way, I just type what I think. It's up to yall to interperate that, and decide if it was meant in a mean way, or a respectful way, that informs you of my opinion. Sorry buddy, I hate all sports.....I find it futile breeds gang & tribal mentality and as I said utterly pointless. i am no loser or quitter just brought up to share & think of others before myself, my life is a struggle much of the time (but that's a whole not her story) but I get by. But you are missing my point, we give too much credit to sportsmen, pop stars, company CEO's, reality nobody's etc. when the real heroes are the people that make everyone's life work day to day the man who cleans up the shit is branded a failure but take him away and we would all notice just how valuable he is. But just a word buddy, I am a big boy and am happy to have frank discussions to a point, but if you think it sounds mean & disrespectful maybe you should moderate what you write before posting. remember there are rules, being respectful of other members is one of them. One final point....the carcrashdashinans are in no way important in any sense of the world I believe those that put their lives on the line for our rears should be the highest paid people in the world, followed by teachers. But, there is no commercialism in being a policeman or a firefighter, and no respect anymore for being a teacher. I agree that we place far too much idol worship in folks who just got lucky most of the time, and that hard working folks are forgotten, and that folks who pick up the trash are looked down upon by a growing majority. I do read over my posts, and edit them from time to time, folks have to try to understand themselves, I don't mean to come off sounding like an a hole, but as my kids tell me all the time, I am an a hole, and ive come to accept that, because holding back or lying, is just a way to forget what you said to begin with. If you tell the truth as you believe it, you don't ever have to remember what you said.
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Jan 14, 2017 20:27:25 GMT
I bet you are a soccer fan, and have never actually won your own trophy, other than participation in your life? Am I right? Or have I got it figured all wrong? In other words, your whole post says 'loser' to me. Paragraph, by paragraph. If you were as important as a Kardashian, why aren't you on the telly? People who run late constantly have a word for them, it's called lazy. [...] I come off sounding mean and bullyish, and I don't mean to sound that way, I just type what I think. It's up to yall to interperate that, and decide if it was meant in a mean way, or a respectful way, that informs you of my opinion. I think I preferred it when you was on your self-imposed ban! On this forum you come across (in some of your posts) as a nasty piece of work. I am glad that you are not my next door neighbour giving me advice over the garden fence anyway, but you are, of course, entitled to your opinions. I know I come across harshly. But, If I held back, I wouldn't be me. I would be pretending to be something I'm not. And how can I grow as a person, and become a better person if I was pretending to be something I'm not? I know I have faults, but I will say this. You would love me as a neighbor. I am the neighborhood watch, I keep my yard mowed, I keep my animals in my own yard, I have a neighborhood cookout on Memorial day, and at least the advice I would give you, wouldn't be colored with half truths to keep your feeling from hurting. It might not be the right advice, but it might not be wrong, either. I appreciate folks like you more than those who hold back their true feelings toward me. I know I'm not an easy person to like, or even tolerate, but I would much rather people tell me that, and tell me when I say something that hurts their feelings, because a lot of the time, I actually don't know, when I hurt somebodys feelings.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jan 14, 2017 20:30:11 GMT
Sometimes I'd rather fail than win. If you're perfect, you can't improve.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jan 14, 2017 20:30:41 GMT
Be kind to everyone you meet because you don't know what battles they are fighting.
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Post by muckypup on Jan 14, 2017 20:37:39 GMT
Sorry buddy, I hate all sports.....I find it futile breeds gang & tribal mentality and as I said utterly pointless. i am no loser or quitter just brought up to share & think of others before myself, my life is a struggle much of the time (but that's a whole not her story) but I get by. But you are missing my point, we give too much credit to sportsmen, pop stars, company CEO's, reality nobody's etc. when the real heroes are the people that make everyone's life work day to day the man who cleans up the shit is branded a failure but take him away and we would all notice just how valuable he is. But just a word buddy, I am a big boy and am happy to have frank discussions to a point, but if you think it sounds mean & disrespectful maybe you should moderate what you write before posting. remember there are rules, being respectful of other members is one of them. One final point....the carcrashdashinans are in no way important in any sense of the world I believe those that put their lives on the line for our rears should be the highest paid people in the world, followed by teachers. But, there is no commercialism in being a policeman or a firefighter, and no respect anymore for being a teacher. I agree that we place far too much idol worship in folks who just got lucky most of the time, and that hard working folks are forgotten, and that folks who pick up the trash are looked down upon by a growing majority. I do read over my posts, and edit them from time to time, folks have to try to understand themselves, I don't mean to come off sounding like an a hole, but as my kids tell me all the time, I am an a hole, and ive come to accept that, because holding back or lying, is just a way to forget what you said to begin with. If you tell the truth as you believe it, you don't ever have to remember what you said. To say it's the truth (as you believe it) does not excuse rude & insulting behaviour. as I say I am happy to have frank discussions, just be respectful.
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