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Post by sherlock on Apr 9, 2017 9:16:47 GMT
Ace's characterisation in Big Finish does waver but on the whole leans towards the younger version, so I'm inclined to go before. My timeline (I get bored and make timelines) places all Big Finish before the novel adaptations.
Here's one reason is simply this: Love and War adaptation has a (brief) reference to Ace's brother, whose existence is only revealed in The Rapture. The Rapture is part of a string of stories where Ace ditches her nickname to only be called McShane, which includes Hex's introductory story. (She later ditches this whilst travelling with Hex).
The console room is best ignored for timelines as its all over the place. My best guess is the console room with Hex (which granted sounds like the TV Movie one) is not in fact the TV Movie one, just a very similar one. Signs and Wonders includes a brief scene where it changes back to the TV series version, so it's not out of the question that before meeting Benny the Doctor decided to change it back. Later in Excelis Decays he adopts the TV Movie one, maybe basing it on the one with Ace and Hex (given that Excelis Decays claims he built it it's possible).
Also a lot of timelines focus on Ace's characterisation-but what about the Doctor?
The Doctor changes too, in the Big Finish audios he's becoming more manipulative but he ain't the NA Doctor yet. In the behind the scenes disc of Love and War McCoy notes Love and War is essentially the end point of the Doctor's development in the Big Finish audios-I.e Big Finish seems to lead up to the novel adaptations. And if that's the view of the guy playing the character, it's good enough for me.
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Post by SoundableObject on Apr 9, 2017 11:47:32 GMT
I generally ascribe to Hex being before Benny. It seems to me that Season 27 leads well into the initial run of Big Finish Main Range stories with Ace which all lead into the Hex stories.
Saying that, I haven't listened to the Ace and Mel stories yet. I hear the characterisation for Ace is more akin to Season 26/27. I assume there is a continuity reason as to why the Ace and Mel stories couldn't take place before Hex, is that right?
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Post by omega on Apr 9, 2017 12:03:12 GMT
I generally ascribe to Hex being before Benny. It seems to me that Season 27 leads well into the initial run of Big Finish Main Range stories with Ace which all lead into the Hex stories. Saying that, I haven't listened to the Ace and Mel stories yet. I hear the characterisation for Ace is more akin to Season 26/27. I assume there is a continuity reason as to why the Ace and Mel stories couldn't take place before Hex, is that right? The anthology collection You are the Doctor has Ace mention Hex (in the context of Ace convincing the Doctor not to withhold information like he did when Hex was around), and the anthology collection is in turn referenced the the 7/Ace/Mel trilogy. |
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 9, 2017 13:55:31 GMT
I still say trying to be all things to all people is more annoying than just taking a position, even if it's one I wouldn't initially have agreed with.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 13:58:06 GMT
I still say trying to be all things to all people is more annoying than just taking a position, even if it's one I wouldn't initially have agreed with. And it's not as if we fans can't Houdini our way of it if we wish. |
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 9, 2017 14:03:09 GMT
I still say trying to be all things to all people is more annoying than just taking a position, even if it's one I wouldn't initially have agreed with. And it's not as if we fans can't Houdini our way of it if we wish. Exactly. I'm more of a continuity hound than when I was younger (for me the events of the novels remain nebulous until BF have adapted them into the TV/BF timeline) but I'm happy to read the comics and books and just enjoy the story first rather than get het up about what goes where. It'd have to be glaringly annoying. In fact the last one that was was actually the Master regeneration this very month in DWM. They know there's a bucketload of Delgado Master regenerates out there, leave it alone. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 14:21:48 GMT
And it's not as if we fans can't Houdini our way of it if we wish. Exactly. I'm more of a continuity hound than when I was younger (for me the events of the novels remain nebulous until BF have adapted them into the TV/BF timeline) but I'm happy to read the comics and books and just enjoy the story first rather than get het up about what goes where. It'd have to be glaringly annoying. In fact the last one that was was actually the Master regeneration this very month in DWM. They know there's a bucketload of Delgado Master regenerates out there, leave it alone. I think was really caused that to trip over its own toes was that it's supposed to be set directly after Frontier in Space or so I've heard at least. I can't remember who said it, but continuity is a superb method of making your world that much larger by implying that certain actions have consequences and that's probably the best way to use it. Where it starts to become a problem is when it becomes weaponised to make the story seem more important than it actually ought to be. Attack of the Cybermen is always the example I use: a story inspired by The Tenth Planet, The Invasion and The Tomb of the Cybermen could have been amazing, particularly if you took full advantage of the Doctor being sent as an unwilling agent of the Time Lords to maintain history and tie the time vessel on Telos into what happens in Earthshock and a greater plot we didn't see in that story. What actually happened was that it used elements of it to try and bolster its own image by association, leaving the whole thing feeling kind of flat (and confused). The original idea of having the TARDIS travel to Cyber-Control on Halley's Comet rather than Telos sounds a great deal more exciting than what we actually got. |
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Post by levi3o4 on Apr 10, 2017 0:27:33 GMT
You know, I used to be firmly in the "Hex before Benny" side of this argument. I finally finished the Ace/Hex storyline the other day, and then listened to Live and War today. I haven't listened to Ace and Mel yet, though.
Anyway, I always thought that when people talked about the maturity level fluctuations Ace experiences, they must have been exagerating. For me, Ace from The Fearmonger through Signs and Wonders sounds like a character whose maturity level varies with her moods, and so a story where she feels like a teenager after a story in which she feels like an adult has never been that big of a deal for me.
That said, it's impossible for me to reconcile the Ace of Live and War with the version we see in A Death in the Family. One simply cannot lead into the other without at least a memory wipe it something. So I'm becoming more inclined than I used to be to say maaaaaybe "Bernice then Hex." No idea if you can make the Set Piece reference in Signs and Wonders work, but it's just vague enough that you can ignore it.
So how young DOES the Ace of last year's trilogy feel in relation to the Ace of Love and War?
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 10, 2017 0:30:02 GMT
You know, I used to be firmly in the "Hex before Benny" side of this argument. I finally finished the Ace/Hex storyline the other day, and then listened to Live and War today. I haven't listened to Ace and Mel yet, though. Anyway, I always thought that when people talked about the maturity level fluctuations Ace experiences, they must have been exagerating. For me, Ace from The Fearmonger through Signs and Wonders sounds like a character whose maturity level varies with her moods, and so a story where she feels like a teenager after a story in which she feels like an adult has never been that big of a deal for me. That said, it's impossible for me to reconcile the Ace of Live and War with the version we see in A Death in the Family. One simply cannot lead into the other without at least a memory wipe it something. So I'm becoming more inclined than I used to be to say maaaaaybe "Bernice then Hex." No idea if you can make the Set Piece reference in Signs and Wonders work, but it's just vague enough that you can ignore it. So how young DOES the Ace of last year's trilogy feel in relation to the Ace of Love and War? Time for a relisten binge then  |
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Post by constonks on Apr 10, 2017 14:12:15 GMT
No idea if you can make the Set Piece reference in Signs and Wonders work, but it's just vague enough that you can ignore it. Well if the Doctor's already seen it happen but Ace can't remember it (because of the memory wipe in TPD), it makes sense that he'd keep silent... |
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Post by TinDogPodcast on Apr 10, 2017 16:17:11 GMT
I had hex in a gap between benny and benny...
Like she is there and goes and comes back...
Like Tegan
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Post by sailorhaumea on Apr 17, 2017 17:19:37 GMT
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 19, 2017 18:07:25 GMT
Well, it's not like BF haven't muddied the waters with Seven tootling around with an entire other Tardis team at the same time as Hex and Ace! I mean, did he pop away from Sally and Lysandra to meet up with Benny, or from Ace and Hex? And how long is he travelling with Sally and Lysandra anyway? Benny never mentions Sally and co so we assume they never met (perhaps they did) but Seven may have dropped them off and visited her alone.
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Post by constonks on Apr 20, 2017 12:34:33 GMT
Well, it's not like BF haven't muddied the waters with Seven tootling around with an entire other Tardis team at the same time as Hex and Ace! I mean, did he pop away from Sally and Lysandra to meet up with Benny, or from Ace and Hex? And how long is he travelling with Sally and Lysandra anyway? Benny never mentions Sally and co so we assume they never met (perhaps they did) but Seven may have dropped them off and visited her alone. The TARDIS is distinctly blue in the New Adventures, not black or white. |
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 20, 2017 12:58:52 GMT
Well, it's not like BF haven't muddied the waters with Seven tootling around with an entire other Tardis team at the same time as Hex and Ace! I mean, did he pop away from Sally and Lysandra to meet up with Benny, or from Ace and Hex? And how long is he travelling with Sally and Lysandra anyway? Benny never mentions Sally and co so we assume they never met (perhaps they did) but Seven may have dropped them off and visited her alone. The TARDIS is distinctly blue in the New Adventures, not black or white. It is when the colour is actually mentioned |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2017 13:10:07 GMT
Well, it's not like BF haven't muddied the waters with Seven tootling around with an entire other Tardis team at the same time as Hex and Ace! I mean, did he pop away from Sally and Lysandra to meet up with Benny, or from Ace and Hex? And how long is he travelling with Sally and Lysandra anyway? Benny never mentions Sally and co so we assume they never met (perhaps they did) but Seven may have dropped them off and visited her alone. The TARDIS is distinctly blue in the New Adventures, not black or white. Interesting that this is brought up though. With the Elder Gods arc and the two TARDISes, there's now actually a precedent for the events of Time's Crucible beyond what occurs in the story itself. An alternate explanation for the TARDIS's instability leading from Witch Mark all the way up to Deceit can be found here as well. |
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