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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2017 14:45:31 GMT
Great though it is, there's a long time between "No tea, Harry" and "Have I that right...?" My dad got bored with the BBC2 repeats of it, I remember.
Hush your tits! And keep them hushed! I'm no buying yer DVD noo.
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Post by theotherjosh on Apr 20, 2017 15:05:37 GMT
It's kinda interesting that both you and Kim are North Americans and find it so overtly racist by even 70s standards - wheras it's never lost it's classic status with UK fans at all, or fandom in general given the polls, even though many now will cite it as their reason for a dislike of the story. I can't find any contemporary complaints - the reviews I've read from nearer the time from the Times even in cultural history books like Dominic Sandbrook's work concentrate criticism on the giant rat more than anything to do with the racial slurs and depictions. Even years after Talons, in the UK, we had Ali Bongo - a faux-Asian magician dressed much like John Bennett was in Talons - still as a fixture of light entertainment TV. I'm not at all suggesting it's acceptable by our standards but perhaps that in 1977 in a different country, one where The Black And White Minstrel Show was still a big hit on TV (featuring blackface Jolson style acts by the barrel load)....it wasn't quite as obviously unacceptable. I was just a kid when I saw it for the first time, and I grew up in a very white community, so I don't think just how racist it was the first time I saw it. I think the turning point for me was Alyssa Franke's essay at Whovian Feminism, where she breaks down why the episode is so problematic. I've watched it since then and I have to agree with a lot of her conclusions. It's a great story, certainly, but it's about as racist as you can get without actually climbing out of the television and burning a cross on my lawn.
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Post by kimalysong on Apr 20, 2017 15:05:44 GMT
I am actually surprised Day of the Doctor is No 1. I didn't realize that was the case. I do quite enjoy it, but number 1 seems a bit high for me. From both the New and Classic series there are stronger stories for me. Ironically it is the only New Series Doctor Who I currently own on DVD (well that and the other "Of the Doctor" episodes) but that is because it came with a whole bunch of extras including the Fivish Doctors Revisited and Adventures in Space and Time.
Edit: I only watched Talons as an adult but it rubbed me the wrong way right away. It reminded me of something I'd see from Hollywood in the 1930's-50's.. the exotic "oriental". In the late 60's and 70's you would have your "token race roles" but you wouldn't see something so inadvertently racist in my opinion. I mean look at someone like Sulu in Star Trek. Also in the 70's you had TV like "All in the Family" where bigotry was explored head on.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2017 15:14:50 GMT
Oh Christ do I not get on with The Five Doctors; everything just feels so gimmicky in that story it's hard to actually care about what's going on.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 20, 2017 15:16:25 GMT
For me it's "The Green Death", I'm actually siding with Pertwee himself on this, I think there's too much retroactivity read into this story regarding the departure of a companion. It's a good story I suppose but...it drags for me, and Jo is EMOTIVE and her relationship appears out of nowhere. Perhaps it was the era it was written for but compare it to Ace in Fenric (slightly possessed I know!) or Remembrance of the Daleks, where there is definitely a feeling of attraction going on rather than a join the dots excuse to leave. Oh, I couldn't agree less.
If anything The Green Death is under-rated, it should be up there in the first tier.
And the original show NEVER did a love story better, or more convincingly. We actually SEE Jo and Cliff fall in love.
Short of a few dodgy effects, and a forced rewrite due to cast illness, It's pretty flawless. The Green Death is an exemplar of fantastic Doctor WHO.
Well, it'd be a dull world if we all agreed on everything. For me it's a second tier story. It's good, it's not great.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2017 15:30:46 GMT
A couple to mention: The Day Of The Doctor The Eleventh Hour The Five Doctors (Just fanw**k) Spearhead From Space The Stolen Earth/Journey's End (Then again, doesn't deserve the hate it gets either. It's just average to me) The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang The Daleks (I know, sacrilege) Asylum Of The Daleks (More than any other Matt Smith story, I don't get why people like this) The Three Doctors The Aztecs The Angels Take Manhattan The Snowmen The Mind Robber The Invasion The Time Of The Doctor
And to round off some Capaldi sutff: Deep Breath Into The Dalek Last Christmas The Zygon Invasion/Inversion Face The Raven (Not as good as people say it is, but still good) Hell Bent
There's probably more stuff I could mention, but you all probably want me to stop moaning about Moffat's era.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 20, 2017 15:32:49 GMT
I am actually surprised Day of the Doctor is No 1. I didn't realize that was the case. I do quite enjoy it, but number 1 seems a bit high for me. From both the New and Classic series there are stronger stories for me. Ironically it is the only New Series Doctor Who I currently own on DVD (well that and the other "Of the Doctor" episodes) but that is because it came with a whole bunch of extras including the Fivish Doctors Revisited and Adventures in Space and Time. Edit: I only watched Talons as an adult but it rubbed me the wrong way right away. It reminded me of something I'd see from Hollywood in the 1930's-50's.. the exotic "oriental". In the late 60's and 70's you would have your "token race roles" but you wouldn't see something so inadvertently racist in my opinion. I mean look at someone like Sulu in Star Trek. Also in the 70's you had TV like "All in the Family" where bigotry was explored head on. The thing is even in the 70s it was "savable" (if that makes sense, from the race thing) with just a bit of thought. Li H'sen Chang didn't have to be what he was in the story, he could literally have been someone in yellowface in that period because that was a common enough thing then if you check your history of 19th century stage shows. And it would have added something to the history of it. He didn't have to be "really" Asian to be a 19th century stage Asian.
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Post by constonks on Apr 20, 2017 15:35:18 GMT
The Five Doctors is quite a bit higher in the poll than The Three Doctors which I enjoy a great deal more. There's more room for the characters in the Three Doctors with only adding Troughton, really, rather than the kitchen sink approach of JNT. Agree completely. Five Doctors is quite possibly the only classic Who story that's too short for me. And we just don't see everyone interact! No Five and Sarah, no Two or Three and Susan, no real interaction between all four Doctors other than the quick scene at the end... I mean, the only sizable interaction between Doctors is One and Five - and it's not even Hartnell, so it doesn't land as well emotionally (as good as Hurndall is). I like Five Docs and I'll gladly rewatch it again and again, but Three Docs is my favorite classic multi-Doctor story - and probably my favourite TV story for the Third Doctor, as well. Troughton and Pertwee sparkle together, the use of Benton and the Brigadier is great, Hartnell is an added bonus and Omega lifting his helmet is a great reveal. And it's actually important to the series, freeing the Third Doctor to travel once again, whereas you could skip The Five Doctors and miss nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2017 15:46:07 GMT
It's kinda interesting that both you and Kim are North Americans and find it so overtly racist by even 70s standards - wheras it's never lost it's classic status with UK fans at all, or fandom in general given the polls, even though many now will cite it as their reason for a dislike of the story. I can't find any contemporary complaints - the reviews I've read from nearer the time from the Times even in cultural history books like Dominic Sandbrook's work concentrate criticism on the giant rat more than anything to do with the racial slurs and depictions. Even years after Talons, in the UK, we had Ali Bongo - a faux-Asian magician dressed much like John Bennett was in Talons - still as a fixture of light entertainment TV. I'm not at all suggesting it's acceptable by our standards but perhaps that in 1977 in a different country, one where The Black And White Minstrel Show was still a big hit on TV (featuring blackface Jolson style acts by the barrel load)....it wasn't quite as obviously unacceptable. I was just a kid when I saw it for the first time, and I grew up in a very white community, so I don't think just how racist it was the first time I saw it. I think the turning point for me was Alyssa Franke's essay at Whovian Feminism, where she breaks down why the episode is so problematic. I've watched it since then and I have to agree with a lot of her conclusions. It's a great story, certainly, but it's about as racist as you can get without actually climbing out of the television and burning a cross on my lawn. Well, while we agree on the problematic parts unequivocally, you've really got to look at family shows that were much bigger than Who like the aforementioned Black And White Minstrel show or It Ain't Half Hot Mum that were doing far, far worse than Talons well after 1977. If you're thinking Talons is one step away from the KKK, I can only imagine you've not seen them as they show a lot more racial insensitivity every 5 minutes than Talons does in 2 and a half hours. Shows like them, and many, many others would show that Who was doing nothing any old TV show from the BBC of that era wouldn't. The UK's favourite ever sitcom, Only Fools And Horses had much more overt racial slurs in the 80s. I can't hold Doctor Who up to different standards when that's just how telly was in this country at the time. We can, of course, now see it easily but we do so through the prism of 40 years and a lot of progress and from rather different societies. Even the rather puritanical BBFC, the film censors, of the 1980s only rated Talons a PG - suitable for all but the very young. When submitted for DVD in the 21st century? Still a PG.
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Post by number13 on Apr 20, 2017 15:53:38 GMT
I must say a few words in defence of The Talons of Weng-Chiang (still my favourite story of all Doctor Who) and of the character of Li H'Sen Chang.
In 1977 I realised this was no Chinese actor but thought no more of it then. Obviously such casting and makeup would be totally unacceptable now, but the 70s were not a globalised world, not on 'Doctor Who' money at least, so it is understandable. Budgets were tiny, time was short and the Director had to do all of his or her own casting, quickly and with certainty, meaning that the experience of previous work with an actor or personal contacts from drama school etc. counted very strongly when quality actors were needed asap. Good actors who understood the considerable demands of the show became regulars and played multiple roles, contributing greatly to the success of classic Who.
As for the character, in my view, he's Robert Holmes' finest single invention, a multi-layered character and ultimately a tragic figure despite his villainous actions. On the surface is the stage performer who speaks 'pidgin English' to play with the prejudices of his audience; then off-stage he's the urbane gentleman artiste, intelligent, speaking perfect English and helping the local police as a translator and 'good citizen'. The third layer is the ruthless follower of his 'god' Weng-Chiang, willing to commit any crime in his service - and finally, with that delusion destroyed, the true man is briefly seen as he faces death: the awed 'son of a peasant' who would no doubt have lived in obscurity somewhere in rural China, if Greel had not fallen through Time and taken over his life.
And Holmes leaves us to speculate on exactly how Greel gave Chang the mental powers he possessed and gained such a hold over him. Perhaps it's just as well we don't know; Greel is not an alien who can perform mind-transfers or the like. He was a human war criminal from the future who performed 'vile experiments' on his victims and has (in Mr. Sin) at least one servant with a re-constructed brain...
(And the story is a literary pastiche of many famous Victorian and early 20thC works - including of course Fu Manchu. This is not 'real' Victorian London; it's a series of famous themes - Sherlock Holmes, Fu Manchu, Phantom of the Opera, Jack the Ripper, Pygmalion etc., etc. - blended with established Doctor Who to create what I still believe is a true classic, written at great speed by Robert Holmes to complete the season when 'The Foe From The Future' fell through.)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2017 16:07:23 GMT
Edit: I only watched Talons as an adult but it rubbed me the wrong way right away. It reminded me of something I'd see from Hollywood in the 1930's-50's.. the exotic "oriental". In the late 60's and 70's you would have your "token race roles" but you wouldn't see something so inadvertently racist in my opinion. I mean look at someone like Sulu in Star Trek. Also in the 70's you had TV like "All in the Family" where bigotry was explored head on. Yes, and it's clearly written in the mould of those Charlie Chan or Fu Manchu type stories. The problem being it typified both the best...and worst of them. I would say that you had All In The Family exploring bigotry or Star Trek's progressive casting but you're talking as though television is ubiquitous and one set thing across the continents. In the UK we had Love Thy Neighbour where the whole "joke" was a black family moving in next door. We had Mind Your Language which featured sleights at Asians almost every ep (and it ran till nearly the end of the Classic Who era so we're not going too far back here). We had 14 million people watching men in blackface singing Mammy. What was unthinkable in American pop culture in the 70s had nothing to do with what was acceptable here in the same era. You can't look at it solely in an American context when Talons was made and broadcast before PBS ever bought the rights to Doctor Who. What Americans would think would never have been a consideration in the slightest when the show wasn't, at the time, shown in the US. We did, however, have inter-racial kissing before Gene Roddenberry even wrote Ep 1 of Trek so we weren't all bad. Just as the first printing of Agatha Christie's Ten Little N*ggers was retitled as And Then There Were None for US readers. Of course now we know it's absolutely the best thing - what a horrible title it had here in 1940 and I'm glad we now use the American one. But Agatha, her publisher and the UK public of 1940 had no issue with it. Why? Because British culture and American culture had different norms and what would have been an outrage with you guys was as nothing here. I'm glad we caught up!
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Post by kimalysong on Apr 20, 2017 16:13:19 GMT
Edit: I only watched Talons as an adult but it rubbed me the wrong way right away. It reminded me of something I'd see from Hollywood in the 1930's-50's.. the exotic "oriental". In the late 60's and 70's you would have your "token race roles" but you wouldn't see something so inadvertently racist in my opinion. I mean look at someone like Sulu in Star Trek. Also in the 70's you had TV like "All in the Family" where bigotry was explored head on. Yes, and it's clearly written in the mould of those Charlie Chan or Fu Manchu type stories. The problem being it typified both the best...and worst of them. I would say that you had All In The Family exploring bigotry or Star Trek's progressive casting but you're talking as though television is ubiquitous and one set thing across the continents. In the UK we had Love Thy Neighbour where the whole "joke" was a black family moving in next door. We had Mind Your Language which featured sleights at Asians almost every ep (and it ran till nearly the end of the Classic Who era so we're not going too far back here). We had 14 million people watching men in blackface singing Mammy. What was unthinkable in American pop culture in the 70s had nothing to do with what was acceptable here in the same era. You can't look at it solely in an American context when Talons was made and broadcast before PBS ever bought the rights to Doctor Who. What Americans would think would never have been a consideration in the slightest when the show wasn't, at the time, shown in the US. We did, however, have inter-racial kissing before Gene Roddenberry even wrote Ep 1 of Trek so we weren't all bad. Just as the first printing of Agatha Christie's Ten Little N*ggers was retitled as And Then There Were None for US readers. Of course now we know it's absolutely the best thing - what a horrible title it had here in 1940 and I'm glad we now use the American one. But Agatha, her publisher and the UK public of 1940 had no issue with it. Why? Because British culture and American culture had different norms and what would have been an outrage with you guys was as nothing here. I'm glad we caught up! Fair enough I can only judge by my own experiences but regardless of whether it would have been considered racist at the time in the UK it still was very much racist and its hard for me to enjoy. It hard for me to watch "black face and yellow face" films from the 1930's when they were deemed "acceptable" here.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2017 16:26:14 GMT
For me it's "The Green Death", I'm actually siding with Pertwee himself on this, I think there's too much retroactivity read into this story regarding the departure of a companion. It's a good story I suppose but...it drags for me, and Jo is EMOTIVE and her relationship appears out of nowhere. Perhaps it was the era it was written for but compare it to Ace in Fenric (slightly possessed I know!) or Remembrance of the Daleks, where there is definitely a feeling of attraction going on rather than a join the dots excuse to leave. Oh, I couldn't agree less.
If anything The Green Death is under-rated, it should be up there in the first tier.
And the original show NEVER did a love story better, or more convincingly. We actually SEE Jo and Cliff fall in love.
Short of a few dodgy effects, and a forced rewrite due to cast illness, It's pretty flawless. The Green Death is an exemplar of fantastic Doctor WHO.
It's one of the few stories of the era where I out and out "like" Pertwee's Doctor more than just appreciate him. I always find him much better when he softens up a tad and stops trying to be the ITC-type action lead and there's nowhere he does that more than Green Death. That last shot of him driving away is more emotional than most goodbyes in Doctor Who.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2017 16:41:29 GMT
It's funny to look at the last DWM poll, on the last page for anyone just in the thread, as some of those stories when I first started getting into fandom in the 90s are so differently viewed now. Tomb Of The Cybermen was always a top 10 story in the polls, now not top 20. The Daemons also used to be regarded a lot higher as did quite a lot of Pertwees that were once much more highly regarded than now. On the other end of the spectrum, The Gunfighters was in the bottom 10 in 1998...now it's getting much higher placing. Of course, part of that will be all the BBC Wales eps taking spaces but still quite interesting, I think, how the stories don't change but the fans do.
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Post by theotherjosh on Apr 20, 2017 16:43:17 GMT
Well, while we agree on the problematic parts unequivocally, you've really got to look at family shows that were much bigger than Who like the aforementioned Black And White Minstrel show or It Ain't Half Hot Mum that were doing far, far worse than Talons well after 1977. If you're thinking Talons is one step away from the KKK, I can only imagine you've not seen them as they show a lot more racial insensitivity every 5 minutes than Talons does in 2 and a half hours. Shows like them, and many, many others would show that Who was doing nothing any old TV show from the BBC of that era wouldn't. The UK's favourite ever sitcom, Only Fools And Horses had much more overt racial slurs in the 80s. I can't hold Doctor Who up to different standards when that's just how telly was in this country at the time. We can, of course, now see it easily but we do so through the prism of 40 years and a lot of progress and from rather different societies. Even the rather puritanical BBFC, the film censors, of the 1980s only rated Talons a PG - suitable for all but the very young. When submitted for DVD in the 21st century? Still a PG. That's fair. I think a majority of the problems with it are reflections of the problems in larger society when it was made.
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Post by theotherjosh on Apr 20, 2017 16:46:37 GMT
Caves of Androzani probably doesn't crack my top 25 TV stories (or my top 100 counting audios, comics and books). I do understand that it is good TV and appreciate it's a good ending for the Fifth Doctor. It just doesn't stand out as a personal favourite. Yeah. It's fine, and I certainly don't hate it or anything, but I'm baffled at how it always finds itself near the top of these polls.
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Post by ollychops on Apr 20, 2017 16:53:45 GMT
The Daleks - Don't get me wrong, there's a good story there, but I find it too long. The Caves of Androzani - It's... fine. I don't think it's amazing, though. Silence In the Library/Forest of the Dead - I usually enjoy most of Moffat's stories, but I never took to this one. I think the problem was that RTD and Moffat overhyped it before it aired, saying that it was as good as Blink, but... I don't really enjoy it, other than the fact that it introduced River.
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Post by number13 on Apr 20, 2017 18:51:34 GMT
It's funny to look at the last DWM poll, on the last page for anyone just in the thread, as some of those stories when I first started getting into fandom in the 90s are so differently viewed now. Tomb Of The Cybermen was always a top 10 story in the polls, now not top 20. The Daemons also used to be regarded a lot higher as did quite a lot of Pertwees that were once much more highly regarded than now. On the other end of the spectrum, The Gunfighters was in the bottom 10 in 1998...now it's getting much higher placing. Of course, part of that will be all the BBC Wales eps taking spaces but still quite interesting, I think, how the stories don't change but the fans do. Perhaps availability and currency are also factors? The excitement when 'The Tomb of the Cybermen' turned up in Hong Kong in 1992 was huge and the video release (in 1993 I think) would have been recent history in the 90s. Similarly the 1993 return in colour of 'The Daemons' was another sensation which would have pushed a great story even higher. On the other hand, nobody born after about 1960 would have even dimly remembered seeing 'The Gunfighters' broadcast and I'm not sure when the VHS was released. Now, with all the surviving classic era out on DVD there's a more level playing field for comparing the classics. But I do wonder if polls mixing the classic and new era have much value? Many new era stories will gain high placings simply by being recent and may fade equally quickly, as the fans change as you said, and as new stories replace them; comparing this poll with one from a few years back clearly shows this effect, while 'Blink', 'Human Nature' and the like have held their place as modern classics.
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Post by relativetime on Apr 20, 2017 20:40:09 GMT
School Reunion is one that I a lot of people seem to like a lot but I don't care for. Sure, it's got Sarah Jane and it led to the brilliant Sarah Jane Adventures, but Rose in this episode just... Ugh... Same for Tooth and Claw - Rose just ruins it for me.
I enjoy The Day of the Doctor a lot more than I did when I first saw it, but it's FAR from deserving of the top spot on any list in my opinion.
Also, seeing The Last of the Time Lords above The Enemy of the World, Fury from the Deep, The Girl Who Waited, Amy's Choice and ESPECIALLY The Mind Robber on that DWM poll is really, really, REALLY frustrating to me.
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Post by theotherjosh on Apr 20, 2017 21:43:53 GMT
School Reunion is one that I a lot of people seem to like a lot but I don't care for. I'm sorry, sir. Those are fighting words where I come from. Have at you!
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