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Post by relativetime on Sept 27, 2017 18:47:01 GMT
The dialogue between the Doctor and Ace in Part 1 was pretty enjoyable. I'm a sucker for some good banter. Actually, most of the dialogue between the three main characters was really quite enjoyable. MJE has a pretty good ear for how these characters would interact and that's something I would definitely say about his Fifth Doctor adventure as well. I also liked the little references to The Fires of Vulcan and other past adventures. It gives those adventures more impact and consequence - it's memorable enough to keep slipping into these characters' daily conversations. The fact that this story is somewhat of a sequel to Warriors of the Deep makes me want to revisit that story, which I'd say is a pretty impressive feat.
There's a good balance between the Season 24 and Season 25-26 portrayal of the Seventh Doctor here that I definitely appreciated. This was also true of The High Price of Parking and The Blood Furnace, but I'm still pleased to have this happy medium. He's light-hearted and bumbling, but there's that edge of mystery and purpose that bubbles to the surface in almost every scene.
Part 1 is noticeably slower than the rest of the episodes. That's true of other stories I've loved from Big Finish, but it's only late in the episode before the Doctor and Ace become aware of any urgency. By the 15 minute mark, we're just cutting back to them from Mel's side just for some admittedly fun banter. It's true that was needed to give time for the B-plot to move forward, but there's a noticeable seesaw effect here where that side has far more substance than where the A-plot currently is. I would have gladly sacrificed the those two fun little cutaways to the Doctor to keep the focus on Mel and then cutting back to the Doctor and Ace when they've exited the lift five minutes later. The first cliffhanger is a bit weak too, but I think that's more of a performance issue than a scripting issue. I felt like Ruth's reaction was more of an "oh my god" with a period instead of an "Oh my god!" with an emphasis on the exclamation mark. I think Mr. Schofield may have needed to pop in to show her how it's done.
The rest of the story was better. I like the dilemma Part 3 puts Mel in and how much it affects her in the moment. Chairman Falco falls into that category of "so hammy it's good" and I have to say I enjoyed the performance. At the same time, I was disappointed he wasn't a more serious villain, given the real life person he's supposed to be parodying. It's hard to laugh when you live in the country said person is president of. His toupee is the last thing I'd make fun of, in any case. That's just me, though. I also can't help but feel as though this wasn't exactly the best setting for bringing in current politics. I'm always in favor of more criticism of current American politics in science fiction, but this felt more like a retread of Cold War themes - two sides on the brink of mutual nuclear destruction is something you'd more quickly associate with the Cold War than you would right now. Granted, there are pretty strong similarities between then and now, but I'd say what's going on in today's politics is noticeably different. That's all just my opinion, of course.
Overall, I ended up liking this story. I didn't really think this was one of Matthew J. Elliot's best. I really, really enjoyed Zaltys and I thought Maker of Demons was pretty strong, but this story didn't really reach those heights in my opinion. Some great dialogue aside, there's still elements of this script that didn't mix well to me in both the story and the story's themes. All the same, it's still a decent story. Far better than Warriors of the Deep, that's for sure.
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Post by mark687 on Sept 27, 2017 19:00:12 GMT
The dialogue between the Doctor and Ace in Part 1 was pretty enjoyable. I'm a sucker for some good banter. Actually, most of the dialogue between the three main characters was really quite enjoyable. MJE has a pretty good ear for how these characters would interact and that's something I would definitely say about his Fifth Doctor adventure as well. I also liked the little references to The Fires of Vulcan and other past adventures. It gives those adventures more impact and consequence - it's memorable enough to keep slipping into these characters' daily conversations. The fact that this story is somewhat of a sequel to Warriors of the Deep makes me want to revisit that story, which I'd say is a pretty impressive feat. There's a good balance between the Season 24 and Season 25-26 portrayal of the Seventh Doctor here that I definitely appreciated. This was also true of The High Price of Parking and The Blood Furnace, but I'm still pleased to have this happy medium. He's light-hearted and bumbling, but there's that edge of mystery and purpose that bubbles to the surface in almost every scene. Part 1 is noticeably slower than the rest of the episodes. That's true of other stories I've loved from Big Finish, but it's only late in the episode before the Doctor and Ace become aware of any urgency. By the 15 minute mark, we're just cutting back to them from Mel's side just for some admittedly fun banter. It's true that was needed to give time for the B-plot to move forward, but there's a noticeable seesaw effect here where that side has far more substance than where the A-plot currently is. I would have gladly sacrificed the those two fun little cutaways to the Doctor to keep the focus on Mel and then cutting back to the Doctor and Ace when they've exited the lift five minutes later. The first cliffhanger is a bit weak too, but I think that's more of a performance issue than a scripting issue. I felt like Ruth's reaction was more of an "oh my god" with a period instead of an "Oh my god!" with an emphasis on the exclamation mark. I think Mr. Schofield may have needed to pop in to show her how it's done. The rest of the story was better. I like the dilemma Part 3 puts Mel in and how much it affects her in the moment. Chairman Falco falls into that category of "so hammy it's good" and I have to say I enjoyed the performance. At the same time, I was disappointed he wasn't a more serious villain, given the real life person he's supposed to be parodying. It's hard to laugh when you live in the country said person is president of. His toupee is the last thing I'd make fun of, in any case. That's just me, though. I also can't help but feel as though this wasn't exactly the best setting for bringing in current politics. I'm always in favor of more criticism of current American politics in science fiction, but this felt more like a retread of Cold War themes - two sides on the brink of mutual nuclear destruction is something you'd more quickly associate with the Cold War than you would right now. Granted, there are pretty strong similarities between then and now, but I'd say what's going on in today's politics is noticeably different. That's all just my opinion, of course. Overall, I ended up liking this story. I didn't really think this was one of Matthew J. Elliot's best. I really, really enjoyed The Star Men and I thought Maker of Demons was pretty strong, but this story didn't really reach those heights in my opinion. Some great dialogue aside, there's still elements of this script that didn't mix well to me in both the story and the story's themes. All the same, it's still a decent story. Far better than Warriors of the Deep, that's for sure. Star Men was by Andrew Smith, Zaltys was Matthew j Eillot (and is his best so far IMO) but agreed this is still far superior to Warriors.
Regards
mark687
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Post by omega on Sept 27, 2017 21:20:56 GMT
The dialogue between the Doctor and Ace in Part 1 was pretty enjoyable. I'm a sucker for some good banter. Actually, most of the dialogue between the three main characters was really quite enjoyable. MJE has a pretty good ear for how these characters would interact and that's something I would definitely say about his Fifth Doctor adventure as well. I also liked the little references to The Fires of Vulcan and other past adventures. It gives those adventures more impact and consequence - it's memorable enough to keep slipping into these characters' daily conversations. The fact that this story is somewhat of a sequel to Warriors of the Deep makes me want to revisit that story, which I'd say is a pretty impressive feat. There's a good balance between the Season 24 and Season 25-26 portrayal of the Seventh Doctor here that I definitely appreciated. This was also true of The High Price of Parking and The Blood Furnace, but I'm still pleased to have this happy medium. He's light-hearted and bumbling, but there's that edge of mystery and purpose that bubbles to the surface in almost every scene. Part 1 is noticeably slower than the rest of the episodes. That's true of other stories I've loved from Big Finish, but it's only late in the episode before the Doctor and Ace become aware of any urgency. By the 15 minute mark, we're just cutting back to them from Mel's side just for some admittedly fun banter. It's true that was needed to give time for the B-plot to move forward, but there's a noticeable seesaw effect here where that side has far more substance than where the A-plot currently is. I would have gladly sacrificed the those two fun little cutaways to the Doctor to keep the focus on Mel and then cutting back to the Doctor and Ace when they've exited the lift five minutes later. The first cliffhanger is a bit weak too, but I think that's more of a performance issue than a scripting issue. I felt like Ruth's reaction was more of an "oh my god" with a period instead of an "Oh my god!" with an emphasis on the exclamation mark. I think Mr. Schofield may have needed to pop in to show her how it's done. The rest of the story was better. I like the dilemma Part 3 puts Mel in and how much it affects her in the moment. Chairman Falco falls into that category of "so hammy it's good" and I have to say I enjoyed the performance. At the same time, I was disappointed he wasn't a more serious villain, given the real life person he's supposed to be parodying. It's hard to laugh when you live in the country said person is president of. His toupee is the last thing I'd make fun of, in any case. That's just me, though. I also can't help but feel as though this wasn't exactly the best setting for bringing in current politics. I'm always in favor of more criticism of current American politics in science fiction, but this felt more like a retread of Cold War themes - two sides on the brink of mutual nuclear destruction is something you'd more quickly associate with the Cold War than you would right now. Granted, there are pretty strong similarities between then and now, but I'd say what's going on in today's politics is noticeably different. That's all just my opinion, of course. Overall, I ended up liking this story. I didn't really think this was one of Matthew J. Elliot's best. I really, really enjoyed The Star Men and I thought Maker of Demons was pretty strong, but this story didn't really reach those heights in my opinion. Some great dialogue aside, there's still elements of this script that didn't mix well to me in both the story and the story's themes. All the same, it's still a decent story. Far better than Warriors of the Deep, that's for sure. Warriors is an interesting script hampered by very poor production values and acting decisions like Ingrid Pitt's klunk fu. I look forward to the reading of the novelisation, making the Seabase drop with condensation and tension. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2017 21:40:29 GMT
Warriors is an interesting script hampered by very poor production values and acting decisions like Ingrid Pitt's klunk fu. I look forward to the reading of the novelisation, making the Seabase drop with condensation and tension. I thought the set was one of the few good visuals Warriors had. Very solid looking - apart from the mattress/door, of course - and very detailed. I know others have said this many times, but it's true: if only the lighting could have been brought down lower, the difference would have been amazing. |
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Post by omega on Sept 27, 2017 21:43:29 GMT
Warriors is an interesting script hampered by very poor production values and acting decisions like Ingrid Pitt's klunk fu. I look forward to the reading of the novelisation, making the Seabase drop with condensation and tension. I thought the set was one of the few good visuals Warriors had. Very solid looking - apart from the mattress/door, of course - and very detailed. I know others have said this many times, but it's true: if only the lighting could have been brought down lower, the difference would have been amazing. And the Myrka not come out of a panto backstage. Making the Sea-Devils more audible (ties with Tomb of the Cybermen for worst monster voices IMO). More sea dragon, less Chinese New Year performer. |
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Post by relativetime on Sept 27, 2017 23:31:30 GMT
The dialogue between the Doctor and Ace in Part 1 was pretty enjoyable. I'm a sucker for some good banter. Actually, most of the dialogue between the three main characters was really quite enjoyable. MJE has a pretty good ear for how these characters would interact and that's something I would definitely say about his Fifth Doctor adventure as well. I also liked the little references to The Fires of Vulcan and other past adventures. It gives those adventures more impact and consequence - it's memorable enough to keep slipping into these characters' daily conversations. The fact that this story is somewhat of a sequel to Warriors of the Deep makes me want to revisit that story, which I'd say is a pretty impressive feat. There's a good balance between the Season 24 and Season 25-26 portrayal of the Seventh Doctor here that I definitely appreciated. This was also true of The High Price of Parking and The Blood Furnace, but I'm still pleased to have this happy medium. He's light-hearted and bumbling, but there's that edge of mystery and purpose that bubbles to the surface in almost every scene. Part 1 is noticeably slower than the rest of the episodes. That's true of other stories I've loved from Big Finish, but it's only late in the episode before the Doctor and Ace become aware of any urgency. By the 15 minute mark, we're just cutting back to them from Mel's side just for some admittedly fun banter. It's true that was needed to give time for the B-plot to move forward, but there's a noticeable seesaw effect here where that side has far more substance than where the A-plot currently is. I would have gladly sacrificed the those two fun little cutaways to the Doctor to keep the focus on Mel and then cutting back to the Doctor and Ace when they've exited the lift five minutes later. The first cliffhanger is a bit weak too, but I think that's more of a performance issue than a scripting issue. I felt like Ruth's reaction was more of an "oh my god" with a period instead of an "Oh my god!" with an emphasis on the exclamation mark. I think Mr. Schofield may have needed to pop in to show her how it's done. The rest of the story was better. I like the dilemma Part 3 puts Mel in and how much it affects her in the moment. Chairman Falco falls into that category of "so hammy it's good" and I have to say I enjoyed the performance. At the same time, I was disappointed he wasn't a more serious villain, given the real life person he's supposed to be parodying. It's hard to laugh when you live in the country said person is president of. His toupee is the last thing I'd make fun of, in any case. That's just me, though. I also can't help but feel as though this wasn't exactly the best setting for bringing in current politics. I'm always in favor of more criticism of current American politics in science fiction, but this felt more like a retread of Cold War themes - two sides on the brink of mutual nuclear destruction is something you'd more quickly associate with the Cold War than you would right now. Granted, there are pretty strong similarities between then and now, but I'd say what's going on in today's politics is noticeably different. That's all just my opinion, of course. Overall, I ended up liking this story. I didn't really think this was one of Matthew J. Elliot's best. I really, really enjoyed The Star Men and I thought Maker of Demons was pretty strong, but this story didn't really reach those heights in my opinion. Some great dialogue aside, there's still elements of this script that didn't mix well to me in both the story and the story's themes. All the same, it's still a decent story. Far better than Warriors of the Deep, that's for sure. Star Men was by Andrew Smith, Zaltys was Matthew j Eillot (and is his best so far IMO) but agreed this is still far superior to Warriors.
Regards
mark687
My mistake! But my statement remains the same - Zaltys was great. |
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Post by eric009 on Sept 28, 2017 0:00:57 GMT
only 3 dislike about warriors (the lighting on all it)sea-devil costume and human makeup, I like the Myrka (bad lighting not it fault)if the Slyther had been given the same lighting that would be looked silly to
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Post by omega on Sept 28, 2017 0:05:32 GMT
only 3 dislike about warriors (the lighting on all it)sea-devil costume and human makeup, I like the Myrka (bad lighting not it fault)if the Slyther had been given the same lighting that would be looked silly to Less can most definitely be more. Look at the first cliffhanger to The Daleks. Caves of Androzani only showed the Magma Beast in the bare minimum of scenes required for it. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2017 6:58:19 GMT
only 3 dislike about warriors (the lighting on all it)sea-devil costume and human makeup, I like the Myrka (bad lighting not it fault)if the Slyther had been given the same lighting that would be looked silly to Less can most definitely be more. Look at the first cliffhanger to The Daleks. Caves of Androzani only showed the Magma Beast in the bare minimum of scenes required for it. I was a bit baffled by the Magma Beast in Androzani because they'd solved the problem previous with the Yeti in The Five Doctors. It's a bit odd, but then I'd honestly put it down to a lack of studio time. Mindwarp did something very similar with the Raak, we never really get to see what the creature is beyond a face full of teeth and claws. |
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Post by omega on Sept 28, 2017 7:03:04 GMT
Less can most definitely be more. Look at the first cliffhanger to The Daleks. Caves of Androzani only showed the Magma Beast in the bare minimum of scenes required for it. I was a bit baffled by the Magma Beast in Androzani because they'd solved the problem previous with the Yeti in The Five Doctors. It's a bit odd, but then I'd honestly put it down to a lack of studio time. Mindwarp did something very similar with the Raak, we never really get to see what the creature is beyond a face full of teeth and claws. I guess Robert Holmes needed the Magma Beast to menace the Doctor for the end of episode cliffhanger. I'd have the Doctor stuck under a rock and being approached by the soldiers. The Doctor's Spectrox Toxemia means his head is swimming, thus disguising when the beast attacks the soldiers. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2017 7:21:19 GMT
I was a bit baffled by the Magma Beast in Androzani because they'd solved the problem previous with the Yeti in The Five Doctors. It's a bit odd, but then I'd honestly put it down to a lack of studio time. Mindwarp did something very similar with the Raak, we never really get to see what the creature is beyond a face full of teeth and claws. I guess Robert Holmes needed the Magma Beast to menace the Doctor for the end of episode cliffhanger. I'd have the Doctor stuck under a rock and being approached by the soldiers. The Doctor's Spectrox Toxemia means his head is swimming, thus disguising when the beast attacks the soldiers. I'm not sure if it was intended for the cliffhanger or not, but the original concept was intended to be a great deal more dramatic. Since they were running short of time, a number of scenes had to be dropped from production which included the Doctor tricking the creature into plunging over the edge of a chasm before it can eat him alive. |
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Post by omega on Sept 28, 2017 7:30:33 GMT
I guess Robert Holmes needed the Magma Beast to menace the Doctor for the end of episode cliffhanger. I'd have the Doctor stuck under a rock and being approached by the soldiers. The Doctor's Spectrox Toxemia means his head is swimming, thus disguising when the beast attacks the soldiers. I'm not sure if it was intended for the cliffhanger or not, but the original concept was intended to be a great deal more dramatic. Since they were running short of time, a number of scenes had to be dropped from production which included the Doctor tricking the creature into plunging over the edge of a chasm before it can eat him alive. Was the Doctor's trip down the the Queen Bat one of the casualties? The difficulty of such a trip was built up in the second episode, but came off as more of an afterthought in the final episode. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2017 7:49:45 GMT
I'm not sure if it was intended for the cliffhanger or not, but the original concept was intended to be a great deal more dramatic. Since they were running short of time, a number of scenes had to be dropped from production which included the Doctor tricking the creature into plunging over the edge of a chasm before it can eat him alive. Was the Doctor's trip down the Queen Bat one of the casualties? The difficulty of such a trip was built up in the second episode, but came off as more of an afterthought in the final episode. Can't say in that regard, there unfortunately doesn't appear to be any evidence for it. I do know that one of the other sequences was an opening scene aboard the TARDIS that contextualises the Doctor and Peri's trip to Androzani (to grab some materials for glassblowing). I'm inclined to believe that it was going to be a bit more of an elaborate descent. Who knows? There might've been a particularly involving sequence echoing the Third Doctor's journey to the Great One in Planet of the Spiders. We might've even gotten to see the Queen Bat. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2017 8:43:29 GMT
I thought the set was one of the few good visuals Warriors had. Very solid looking - apart from the mattress/door, of course - and very detailed. I know others have said this many times, but it's true: if only the lighting could have been brought down lower, the difference would have been amazing. And the Myrka not come out of a panto backstage. Making the Sea-Devils more audible (ties with Tomb of the Cybermen for worst monster voices IMO). More sea dragon, less Chinese New Year performer. Haha! I see what you mean about the Myrka - but I still think with more sympathetic lighting and of course, more time, the creature could have looked fine. Matt Irvine says it a lot better on the DVD extras. The Sea Devil voices I thought were okay - better, to me, than 'the Silurians' who sounded too cute. |
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Post by omega on Sept 28, 2017 8:49:03 GMT
And the Myrka not come out of a panto backstage. Making the Sea-Devils more audible (ties with Tomb of the Cybermen for worst monster voices IMO). More sea dragon, less Chinese New Year performer. Haha! I see what you mean about the Myrka - but I still think with more sympathetic lighting and of course, more time, the creature could have looked fine. Matt Irvine says it a lot better on the DVD extras. The Sea Devil voices I thought were okay - better, to me, than 'the Silurians' who sounded too cute. The problem was the production time was cut short by a couple of weeks, so the paint was still wet on the Myrka prop. Apparently is was giving off fumes from the wet paint (which came off on the walls). Oh, and Four to Doomsday did feature dragon dancers. |
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Post by mrperson on Oct 2, 2017 20:51:45 GMT
While it is true that seven is often secretive or manipulative, this seemed like a rather odd plan to be secretive about. And then when he did spill the beans, he made his plan sound uncharacteristically bad ("give away the Earth").
So... another level of manipulation - give Ace a reason to second-guess herself whenever she's second-guessing him?
One thing I may have missed that someone had caught: are older Mel/Ace/Seven set before Ace/Hex/Seven, or after?
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Post by omega on Oct 2, 2017 21:10:09 GMT
While it is true that seven is often secretive or manipulative, this seemed like a rather odd plan to be secretive about. And then when he did spill the beans, he made his plan sound uncharacteristically bad ("give away the Earth"). So... another level of manipulation - give Ace a reason to second-guess herself whenever she's second-guessing him? One thing I may have missed that someone had caught: are older Mel/Ace/Seven set before Ace/Hex/Seven, or after? Set after. The story Dead to the World from You are the Doctor has Ace invoke Hex as a reason for the Doctor to spill the beans, and the connecting thread of that anthology was the TARDIS trying to track down Mel, which eventually happens in A Life of Crime. |
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Post by mark687 on Oct 2, 2017 21:23:42 GMT
While it is true that seven is often secretive or manipulative, this seemed like a rather odd plan to be secretive about. And then when he did spill the beans, he made his plan sound uncharacteristically bad ("give away the Earth"). So... another level of manipulation - give Ace a reason to second-guess herself whenever she's second-guessing him? One thing I may have missed that someone had caught: are older Mel/Ace/Seven set before Ace/Hex/Seven, or after? After Hex which makes Ace's portrayal and 7's motivation for having Mel back in the recent stories hard to swallow for me.
Regards
mark687
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Post by number13 on Oct 3, 2017 8:01:18 GMT
While it is true that seven is often secretive or manipulative, this seemed like a rather odd plan to be secretive about. And then when he did spill the beans, he made his plan sound uncharacteristically bad ("give away the Earth"). So... another level of manipulation - give Ace a reason to second-guess herself whenever she's second-guessing him? One thing I may have missed that someone had caught: are older Mel/Ace/Seven set before Ace/Hex/Seven, or after? After Hex which makes Ace's portrayal and 7's motivation for having Mel back in the recent stories hard to swallow for me.
Regards
mark687
That is a surprise! Obviously I haven't heard the earlier story which places them in the timeline yet - going just by the characterisations and story styles of this trilogy I'd assumed this Seven/Ace/Mel travelling was all set before Hex, maybe even not that long after 'Dragonfire' (at least for the Doctor's and Ace's timelines; a few years later for Mel after her time with Glitz.) In my 'head canon' I think that's where it's going to stay placed, because I can't make sense of a witty story like 'The High Price of Parking' or the air of mistrust in this one if they were set after Hex. Curious decision. |
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Post by mrperson on Oct 3, 2017 18:24:14 GMT
While it is true that seven is often secretive or manipulative, this seemed like a rather odd plan to be secretive about. And then when he did spill the beans, he made his plan sound uncharacteristically bad ("give away the Earth"). So... another level of manipulation - give Ace a reason to second-guess herself whenever she's second-guessing him? One thing I may have missed that someone had caught: are older Mel/Ace/Seven set before Ace/Hex/Seven, or after? After Hex which makes Ace's portrayal and 7's motivation for having Mel back in the recent stories hard to swallow for me.
Regards
mark687
See, I had been guessing they were set before. For one thing, it feels like Ace is too jokey about seven hiding things or being manipulative for this to come after Hex. Seven too, for that matter. |
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