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Post by doctorkernow on Jul 16, 2017 7:35:03 GMT
Hello again.
Even with the Myrkka played by the two performers from BBC children's sitcom Rentaghost; Twin Dilemma is easily the worst.
The scene where the Doctor tries to throttle Peri is a terrible mistep and should have been cut from the script. With that scene gone, the story is still dreadful but it has some good features.
The erratic but not violent Doctor, the coat reflecting his splintered personality, his old tutor Azmael and Peri trying to adapt to this new very alarming and unpredictable Doctor.
Warriors is riddled with poor production decisions due to the sudden calling of a general election meaning it lost time in he studio. It is memorable due to its final line, the haunting, "There should have been another way."
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jul 16, 2017 8:51:06 GMT
I'd put it more squarely at 50-50: neither was ready to go and needed a considerable rethink on multiple levels. That's a bit vague, how do you mean? Both scripts were very flawed: Twin Dilemma needed to find a careful sweet spot tonally, while Warriors needed better characters and perhaps a slightly more unique angle on Cold War allegory (I know you admire it for that, but me personally, it's too simplified in execution). The production side of things has already been very well spoken.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2017 9:48:16 GMT
That's a bit vague, how do you mean? Both scripts were very flawed: Twin Dilemma needed to find a careful sweet spot tonally, while Warriors needed better characters and perhaps a slightly more unique angle on Cold War allegory (I know you admire it for that, but me personally, it's too simplified in execution). The production side of things has already been very well spoken. Thanks for being so understanding. Remember though, when I talk about Warriors, I'm usually thinking of Terrance Dicks's novelisation which adds a few pieces here and there to contextualise the characters. It's never mentioned in the televised version, but Solow was a genuinely good human being who was recruited by Nilson after her husband and parents died. Nilson, on the other hand, is stated to be an ideological fanatic. Far worse than the people he actually serves. It provides some nice context and although I think it's a good action story, fleshing it all out further could only have made it better. I do like Maddox and Karina though, I think their characters work well as written. A lack of exploration is something I think both scripts suffer from, The Twin Dilemma more so. There are small bits and pieces for Drak in the novelisation that I really would have liked to see applied to the proper serial: his subtle, but unwavering loyalty to Azmael and his almost paternal sensitivity to the Sylvest twins. There's the implication that Noma likewise was Azmael's military advisor when he was their leader and defected to Mestor because he genuinely believed he was a better ruler. Jacondan mythology is brought up in the catacombs, yet never mentioned again. The survivors mopping up the Gastropods are only heard of in that penultimate scene. All these little seeds exist in the story to make it something really special, but they're never seized upon. (As an aside, someone pointed out to me that Attack of the Cybermen could be considered an allegory for the Soviet–Afghan War. I can vaguely see it, maybe with the Cryons...)
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Jul 16, 2017 13:22:14 GMT
Being in what can be politely termed as low regard by many in fandom, which of these two 80s misfires is the bigger turkey (or pony-Myrka, in this instance)? I don't have the time, but a huge bracket, from each decade would be fun to do. We already know what story carried the 90s. I like Twin Dilemma.
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Post by Ela on Jul 16, 2017 19:38:59 GMT
I liked Twin Dilemma, too, even though it has its issues.
I don't even remember Warriors of the Deep very well anymore, to be honest, so it must not have made a huge impression.
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Post by constonks on Jul 17, 2017 18:35:26 GMT
With Twin Dilemma, I absolutely know what I like (Colin) and dislike (the sheer boredom of everything else). With Warriors, I remember extremely little. So one is so bad it's memorable with some redeeming factors. The other is forgettable. So it really depends what type of bad you dislike more.
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Post by mrperson on Jul 17, 2017 18:38:24 GMT
At least the plot makes sense. Twin Dilemma is about a giant slug kidnapping supposedly intelligent twins for some reason involving unborn slugs and a sun. I'll take Silurians and Sea-Devils invading a station fighting in a Cold War over that any day. The opening for Warriors, the TARDIS caught entering a forbidden zone in space and forced to make an abrupt relocation helps to sell the atmosphere of the Cold War climate. But at least Colin's trying, Peter takes one at the Pantomime Mykra and in his head he's obviously gone "Check Please" and there's no sense of threat, there's some clumsy greed and paranoia but that's it.
Regards
mark687
I could swear I saw a convention vid where Davison uses the Myrka as an example of the kind of foe he hated the most - one you could defeat by turning around and walking away.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 22:06:19 GMT
Twin Dilemma because of Colin Baker, terrible
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 22:21:54 GMT
Twin Dilemma because of Colin Baker, terrible I disagree with that. The Twin Dilemma was terrible I agree, but for me it was because of - and this applied to a lot of the Sixth Doctor era - the script that Colin Baker was given, the awful costume that he was given to wear and the bad production that went with it. Colin Baker was only playing a part. Throttling Peri didn't enamour the new Doctor to us fans back in 1984, but that was what was written in the script and what the Director/Producer wanted. So I blame JNT not Colin Baker. There are plenty of Big Finish audios that demonstrate how good an actor Colin Baker can be as the Sixth Doctor when given a good script to work with.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 22:23:05 GMT
Twin Dilemma because of Colin Baker, terrible I disagree with that. The Twin Dilemma was terrible I agree, but for me it was because of - and this applied to a lot of the Sixth Doctor era - the script that Colin Baker was given, the awful costume that he was given to wear and the bad production that went with it. Colin Baker was only playing a part. Throttling Peri didn't enamour the new Doctor to us fans back in 1984, but that was what was written in the script and what the Director/Producer wanted. So I blame JNT not Colin Baker. There are plenty of Big Finish audios that demonstrate how good an actor Colin Baker can be as the Sixth Doctor when given a good script to work with. True he has been redeemed by BF.
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Post by number13 on Jul 17, 2017 23:08:25 GMT
Twin Dilemma because of Colin Baker, terrible I disagree with that. The Twin Dilemma was terrible I agree, but for me it was because of - and this applied to a lot of the Sixth Doctor era - the script that Colin Baker was given, the awful costume that he was given to wear and the bad production that went with it. Colin Baker was only playing a part. Throttling Peri didn't enamour the new Doctor to us fans back in 1984, but that was what was written in the script and what the Director/Producer wanted. So I blame JNT not Colin Baker. There are plenty of Big Finish audios that demonstrate how good an actor Colin Baker can be as the Sixth Doctor when given a good script to work with. Hear, hear! Colin Baker is my favourite Big Finish Doctor, his stories are an event to look forward to. Just one example of a Colin Baker gem is the scene at the start of 'Trial of the Valeyard'; a splendid 8 minute near-monologue of humorous ranting, while Madam Inquisitor can hardly get a word in! And he was very good on TV too - when the script gave him a chance. Even in 'The Twin Dilemma' - think of that quiet, poignant scene where his old friend Azmael dies in his arms.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2017 1:12:30 GMT
I disagree with that. The Twin Dilemma was terrible I agree, but for me it was because of - and this applied to a lot of the Sixth Doctor era - the script that Colin Baker was given, the awful costume that he was given to wear and the bad production that went with it. Colin Baker was only playing a part. Throttling Peri didn't enamour the new Doctor to us fans back in 1984, but that was what was written in the script and what the Director/Producer wanted. So I blame JNT not Colin Baker. There are plenty of Big Finish audios that demonstrate how good an actor Colin Baker can be as the Sixth Doctor when given a good script to work with. Hear, hear! Colin Baker is my favourite Big Finish Doctor, his stories are an event to look forward to. Just one example of a Colin Baker gem is the scene at the start of 'Trial of the Valeyard'; a splendid 8 minute near-monologue of humorous ranting, while Madam Inquisitor can hardly get a word in! And he was very good on TV too - when the script gave him a chance. Even in 'The Twin Dilemma' - think of that quiet, poignant scene where his old friend Azmael dies in his arms. His tenure is inundated with them. Everything from The Twin Dilemma to The Ultimate Foe, it's very hard not to see that he was trying his best whatever the script. Let's imagine for a moment, if through some cosmic hiccup, Season 22 had looked like this: Even with some production shortfalls, I reckon none of these stories would have been any the less with the Sixth Doctor and Peri in them. Something like The Seeds of Doom is probably exactly what they were going for in that season anyway. Irascible and otherworldly Doctor, diabolical villains with their thuggish underlings, taut action set pieces, even that bit of nastiness with the composting machine. I used to mix it up with Season 22 when borrowing it from the library as a kid, I could never find it because I was searching for the wrong Doctor. Actually... I think what hurt it more than anything else was the ratio of stories. Two original stories vs. four with returning elements. It should've been the other way around.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2017 2:14:22 GMT
Hear, hear! Colin Baker is my favourite Big Finish Doctor, his stories are an event to look forward to. Just one example of a Colin Baker gem is the scene at the start of 'Trial of the Valeyard'; a splendid 8 minute near-monologue of humorous ranting, while Madam Inquisitor can hardly get a word in! And he was very good on TV too - when the script gave him a chance. Even in 'The Twin Dilemma' - think of that quiet, poignant scene where his old friend Azmael dies in his arms. His tenure is inundated with them. Everything from The Twin Dilemma to The Ultimate Foe, it's very hard not to see that he was trying his best whatever the script. Let's imagine for a moment, if through some cosmic hiccup, Season 22 had looked like this: Even with some production shortfalls, I reckon none of these stories would have been any the less with the Sixth Doctor and Peri in them. Something like The Seeds of Doom is probably exactly what they were going for in that season anyway. Irascible and otherworldly Doctor, diabolical villains with their thuggish underlings, taut action set pieces, even that bit of nastiness with the composting machine. I used to mix it up with Season 22 when borrowing it from the library as a kid, I could never find it because I was searching for the wrong Doctor. Actually... I think what hurt it more than anything else was the ratio of stories. Two original stories vs. four with returning elements. It should've been the other way around. Very well said. I think that the Key To Time would have been an amazing way to have a second season with Colin Baker as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2017 2:51:41 GMT
His tenure is inundated with them. Everything from The Twin Dilemma to The Ultimate Foe, it's very hard not to see that he was trying his best whatever the script. Let's imagine for a moment, if through some cosmic hiccup, Season 22 had looked like this: Even with some production shortfalls, I reckon none of these stories would have been any the less with the Sixth Doctor and Peri in them. Something like The Seeds of Doom is probably exactly what they were going for in that season anyway. Irascible and otherworldly Doctor, diabolical villains with their thuggish underlings, taut action set pieces, even that bit of nastiness with the composting machine. I used to mix it up with Season 22 when borrowing it from the library as a kid, I could never find it because I was searching for the wrong Doctor. Actually... I think what hurt it more than anything else was the ratio of stories. Two original stories vs. four with returning elements. It should've been the other way around. Very well said. I think that the Key To Time would have been an amazing way to have a second season with Colin Baker as well. Oh, wow. There's an idea. The Sixth Doctor on Tara with Peri doubling as the princess... Imagine if the reason why the Doctor and Peri had to go to Varos in the first place was that one of them had discovered that the TARDIS's supply of Zeiton-7 was one of the segments or if the Master's hypnosound unit from Frontier in Space was a disguised segment.
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Post by TinDogPodcast on Jul 19, 2017 16:51:44 GMT
For me.
Warriors
It's a Tegan and good monsters thing.
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