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Post by jasonward on Aug 17, 2017 15:17:36 GMT
I have not read the book. From what I have heard about it, it's it crazy and revealed too much about the Doctor's past? I think it did quite the opposite, there was no real mystery to The Doctor, he was a Timelord. Lungbarrow introduces elements and possibilities that respin who and what The Doctor is and what might be.
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Post by fitzoliverj on Aug 17, 2017 18:18:28 GMT
Hang on, so essentially what's being proposed is a way to avoid the problems of adapting a novel when the novel adaptation line didn't sell very well, and to avoid making subscribers and the like who don't like it approve of the source novel having to buy it automatically - and people are still saying they don't want it done because they don't want it? What's that got to do with anything? Surely the question is as to whether crowdfunding an audio is practical or not.
And if Marc Platt is amenable, then I should say the only barrier is to whether BF are prepared to let the general public know what their budget for a play is. (And, I suspect, they won't be).
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Aug 17, 2017 18:38:14 GMT
Hang on, so essentially what's being proposed is a way to avoid the problems of adapting a novel when the novel adaptation line didn't sell very well, and to avoid making subscribers and the like who don't like it approve of the source novel having to buy it automatically - and people are still saying they don't want it done because they don't want it? What's that got to do with anything? Surely the question is as to whether crowdfunding an audio is practical or not. And if Marc Platt is amenable, then I should say the only barrier is to whether BF are prepared to let the general public know what their budget for a play is. (And, I suspect, they won't be). That is a pretty good summation. Other companies have crowd funded audios but that's not BF's model, and probably isn't likely to be either whatever anyone wants or doesn't want, so if we see it it'll be on their terms, which to be fair are normally good terms with regards to adapting and producing.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2017 10:21:11 GMT
I don't think the BBC would ever let Big Finish do it, to be honest.
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Post by omega on Aug 19, 2017 10:29:54 GMT
I enjoy it and Big Finish published a very similar story to it called Paper Cuts a couple years ago during the Sixth Doctor and Charley run. There've been some very vocal protests against it (poor Mervyn Peake, there are some who just don't seem to like him), but then we still have things like Bang-Bang-A-Boom and The Dark Husband in the audio retinue and I'm not seeing any vain bonfires about those coming into existence. For those of us who appreciate it, who enjoyed it and think Marc Platt did a sterling job trying to bring an additional bit of atmosphere to Gallifrey, I'd be very happy to contribute to a crowdfunding campaign to see it adapted. Those who don't are vehemently against it can just keep shouting that it's noncanon (despite The Beginning easily being an alternate account if one wished), I mean it worked so well for the book that people still discovered it over a decade later on the official BBC website... :3 However, I would question whether or not it should be an audio drama, an audiobook with a full cast or a streamlined hybrid like Farewell, Great Macedon. Platt has a very lyrical and prose-heavy authorial voice from what I've read. Me personally, I think I'd rather like the hybrid or the audiobook. Then again, there are dramas that have been able to do fantastic worldbuilding without grounding their entire plots to a halt to do it. Hmm... I like Lungbarrow but it definitely works better as a book. And I really wouldn't want them to make some bastardized version to quell the strangeness (not that they necessarily would - they mentioned looms in Cold Fusion - but so many people seem to want "adaptations" that are focused on fixing continuity glitches). "Unequivocally," from the Doctor's mouth too, yet there's still procellous opinions standing against it. Gary Russell did some amazing work on keeping Love and War's texture, I wonder if he'd be willing to direct if Platt ever were to change his mind? Bang-Bang-a-Boom! is fine, but the dark husband is just abysmal. The writer didn't appear to do any research on the Doctor, Ace and Hex, because they don't appear in the story. There are characters passing themselves off as the Doctor, Ace and Hex, but that's it.
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Post by omega on Aug 19, 2017 10:39:12 GMT
No thanks! Not fan of that story. If more books are to be adapted I would prefer something like Featival of Death or the Tomorrow Windows (Jonathan Morris fan here). From NA I prefer The Also People If you like Festival of Death, listen to Cobwebs. Because that's the closest we'll get to Festival of Death on audio. Festival of Death is one of those flow chart complicated labyrinthine stories that would be very difficult to adapt to the audio medium. You've got the Doctor and Romana crossing over and experiencing the points in the story out of order, and at one point Romana sees a Doctor who is the future Doctor. {Spoiler}Doctor and companions arriving somewhere after everything is over (which takes place in their personal future), finding their dead bodies, going back in time, cleverly not dying but the location ends up how they first found it. There's even deadly arachnid-like creatures and a depressed computer whose destruction the Doctor can assure because he's already seen it in the future. Besides, Jonathan Morris has said he'd prefer not to revisit his old stories.
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Post by jjjjj on Aug 19, 2017 13:00:09 GMT
No thanks! Not fan of that story. If more books are to be adapted I would prefer something like Featival of Death or the Tomorrow Windows (Jonathan Morris fan here). From NA I prefer The Also People If you like Festival of Death, listen to Cobwebs. Because that's the closest we'll get to Festival of Death on audio. Festival of Death is one of those flow chart complicated labyrinthine stories that would be very difficult to adapt to the audio medium. You've got the Doctor and Romana crossing over and experiencing the points in the story out of order, and at one point Romana sees a Doctor who is the future Doctor. {Spoiler}Doctor and companions arriving somewhere after everything is over (which takes place in their personal future), finding their dead bodies, going back in time, cleverly not dying but the location ends up how they first found it. There's even deadly arachnid-like creatures and a depressed computer whose destruction the Doctor can assure because he's already seen it in the future. Besides, Jonathan Morris has said he'd prefer not to revisit his old stories. But festival of death was so awesome, I would love to hear that one acted with tom and Lalla. Such a great well planned out story!
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Post by omega on Aug 19, 2017 22:52:55 GMT
If you like Festival of Death, listen to Cobwebs. Because that's the closest we'll get to Festival of Death on audio. Festival of Death is one of those flow chart complicated labyrinthine stories that would be very difficult to adapt to the audio medium. You've got the Doctor and Romana crossing over and experiencing the points in the story out of order, and at one point Romana sees a Doctor who is the future Doctor. {Spoiler}Doctor and companions arriving somewhere after everything is over (which takes place in their personal future), finding their dead bodies, going back in time, cleverly not dying but the location ends up how they first found it. There's even deadly arachnid-like creatures and a depressed computer whose destruction the Doctor can assure because he's already seen it in the future. Besides, Jonathan Morris has said he'd prefer not to revisit his old stories. But festival of death was so awesome, I would love to hear that one acted with tom and Lalla. Such a great well planned out story! The second closest I'd say we go is The Shadow Heart. It's got the Seventh Doctor jumping up and down the timeline, but presents the timeline in a linear fashion. So the Doctor appears to display knowledge we'll later see an earlier self learn, because of a character who has already met his later self. One of the characters even comments that she doesn't know what's going on and asks for a diagram.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2017 1:02:23 GMT
Bang-Bang-a-Boom! is fine, but the dark husband is just abysmal. The writer didn't appear to do any research on the Doctor, Ace and Hex, because they don't appear in the story. There are characters passing themselves off as the Doctor, Ace and Hex, but that's it. Bang-Bang-a-Boom! I really struggled with because it was right in the middle of stories like Flip-Flop and Red. Serials that did an exceptionally good job at getting away from the gaudy Season 24 atmosphere and BBaB seemed a bit too much like a return to that for my tastes, which is a shame really. I'm an enormous fan of what both writers did with The One Doctor.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2017 1:20:10 GMT
I have not read the book. From what I have heard about it, it's it crazy and revealed too much about the Doctor's past? I think it did quite the opposite, there was no real mystery to The Doctor, he was a Timelord. Lungbarrow introduces elements and possibilities that respin who and what The Doctor is and what might be. And leaves them in the context of half-truths and mysteries. It's the culmination of that line from Remembrance of the Daleks that every fan knows, but never turned up in the broadcast version: "I am far more than just another Time Lord." Marc Platt wove a Gallifrey largely from what was seen in The Deadly Assassin and in the comics by Alan Moore. It was a Gormenghast-like The Castle of Otranto story about the Doctor coming home in the midst of a murder mystery. Paper Cuts had a very similar structure to it, exploring Draconian culture and the Doctor's past in relation to it. What it did reveal for certain was that the Doctor was being groomed by the head of the house to become a politician, perhaps even one day Lord President, but the Doctor himself had other plans. Eventually, his rebellion lead to him being disowned and stuck in a dead-end position as a Scrutationary Archivist at the Bureau of Possible Events until one day he was visited by a fellow member of the House. This man had evidence that the Doctor's birth was illegitimate and came to gloat, he was going to have him executed as a loom-jumper. The Doctor attacked him in a rage and fled in a malfunctioning Type-40 that sent him into Gallifrey's ancient past -- that's why he could never return. If he ever did, they would have destroyed him for that violation. In amongst that is Romana's government being bombed by the CIA in a power move to oust out her presidency, Leela and her K9s attempting to uncover why Lungbarrow disappeared, Chris's visions of the Pythia who ruled in Gallifrey's past before Rassilon, etc. It's the de facto final hurrah for the Seventh Doctor, so there's a lot in there.
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Post by omega on Aug 20, 2017 1:23:19 GMT
I have not read the book. From what I have heard about it, it's it crazy and revealed too much about the Doctor's past? I think it did quite the opposite, there was no real mystery to The Doctor, he was a Timelord. Lungbarrow introduces elements and possibilities that respin who and what The Doctor is and what might be. And leaves them in the context of half-truths and mysteries. It's the culmination of that line from Remembrance of the Daleks that every fan knows, but never turned up in the broadcast version: "I am far more than just another Time Lord." Marc Platt wove a Gallifrey largely from what was seen in The Deadly Assassin and in the comics by Alan Moore. It was a Gormenghast-like The Castle of Otranto story about the Doctor coming home in the midst of a murder mystery. Paper Cuts had a very similar structure to it, exploring Draconian culture and the Doctor's past in relation to it. What it did reveal for certain was that the Doctor was being groomed by the head of the house to become a politician, perhaps even one day Lord President, but the Doctor himself had other plans. Eventually, his rebellion lead to him being disowned and stuck in a dead-end position as a Scrutationary Archivist at the Bureau of Possible Events until one day he was visited by a fellow member of the House. This man had evidence that the Doctor's birth was illegitimate and came to gloat, he was going to have him executed as a loom-jumper. The Doctor attacked him in a rage and left, fleeing Gallifrey forever. In amongst that is Romana's government being bombed by the CIA in a power move to oust out her presidency, Leela and her K9s attempting to uncover why Lungbarrow disappeared, Chris's visions of the Pythia who ruled in Gallifrey's past before Rassilon, etc. It's the de facto final hurrah for the Seventh Doctor, so there's a lot in there. This shows up in Marc Platt's Unbound audio Auld Mortality.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2017 4:08:10 GMT
And leaves them in the context of half-truths and mysteries. It's the culmination of that line from Remembrance of the Daleks that every fan knows, but never turned up in the broadcast version: "I am far more than just another Time Lord." Marc Platt wove a Gallifrey largely from what was seen in The Deadly Assassin and in the comics by Alan Moore. It was a Gormenghast-like The Castle of Otranto story about the Doctor coming home in the midst of a murder mystery. Paper Cuts had a very similar structure to it, exploring Draconian culture and the Doctor's past in relation to it. What it did reveal for certain was that the Doctor was being groomed by the head of the house to become a politician, perhaps even one day Lord President, but the Doctor himself had other plans. Eventually, his rebellion lead to him being disowned and stuck in a dead-end position as a Scrutationary Archivist at the Bureau of Possible Events until one day he was visited by a fellow member of the House. This man had evidence that the Doctor's birth was illegitimate and came to gloat, he was going to have him executed as a loom-jumper. The Doctor attacked him in a rage and left, fleeing Gallifrey forever. In amongst that is Romana's government being bombed by the CIA in a power move to oust out her presidency, Leela and her K9s attempting to uncover why Lungbarrow disappeared, Chris's visions of the Pythia who ruled in Gallifrey's past before Rassilon, etc. It's the de facto final hurrah for the Seventh Doctor, so there's a lot in there. This shows up in Marc Platt's Unbound audio Auld Mortality. And does actually come to pass after a fashion in Lance Parkin's The Infinity Doctors, he's on the High Council for reasons unapparent in the novel. If you consider the Valeyard to be the Doctor's shadow aspect (as theorised by Jung), his condemnation of the Sixth Doctor's lack of political ambition in Trial of the Valeyard could be previously subconscious guilt in not following Quences's original plans for him.
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Post by omega on Aug 20, 2017 4:23:45 GMT
This shows up in Marc Platt's Unbound audio Auld Mortality. And does actually come to pass after a fashion in Lance Parkin's The Infinity Doctors, he's on the High Council for reasons unapparent in the novel. If you consider the Valeyard to be the Doctor's shadow aspect (as theorised by Jung), his condemnation of the Sixth Doctor's lack of political ambition in Trial of the Valeyard could be previously subconscious guilt in not following Quences's original plans for him. The Infinity Doctors was supposed to tie into Kate Orman and Jonathan Blum's Unnatural History, which featured a character hinted at being the Doctor's father (could have been a nod to the intended story arc of the show the movie was supposed to launch, with the setting being San Francisco and everything), but ultimately didn't. The character Penelope Gate, who first appeared in the Kate Orman New Adventure The Room with No Doors (the penultimate NA to feature the Seventh Doctor) later appeared in a flashback in The Gallifrey Chronicles (the final Eighth Doctor Adventure, written by Lance Parkin) where she was heavily hinted to be the Doctor's mother. In The Infinity Doctors the Doctor has a dream where he sees the Eighth Doctor, and in Father Time (another Lance Parkin book, that deserved to be adapted for audio) the Eighth Doctor has a similar dream instead seeing the Infinity Doctor.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2017 5:51:40 GMT
And does actually come to pass after a fashion in Lance Parkin's The Infinity Doctors, he's on the High Council for reasons unapparent in the novel. If you consider the Valeyard to be the Doctor's shadow aspect (as theorised by Jung), his condemnation of the Sixth Doctor's lack of political ambition in Trial of the Valeyard could be previously subconscious guilt in not following Quences's original plans for him. The Infinity Doctors was supposed to tie into Kate Orman and Jonathan Blum's Unnatural History, which featured a character hinted at being the Doctor's father (could have been a nod to the intended story arc of the show the movie was supposed to launch, with the setting being San Francisco and everything), but ultimately didn't. The character Penelope Gate, who first appeared in the Kate Orman New Adventure The Room with No Doors (the penultimate NA to feature the Seventh Doctor) later appeared in a flashback in The Gallifrey Chronicles (the final Eighth Doctor Adventure, written by Lance Parkin) where she was heavily hinted to be the Doctor's mother. In The Infinity Doctors the Doctor has a dream where he sees the Eighth Doctor, and in Father Time (another Lance Parkin book, that deserved to be adapted for audio) the Eighth Doctor has a similar dream instead seeing the Infinity Doctor. Which all ties into the oft-mentioned theory of the Doctor's illegitimacy coming from his parents Joyce and Penelope; an exercise that potentially came in response to the birth of Braxiatel, the Doctor's elder brother. The anomalies in his genetic structure were likely not only due to his connection to the Other, but also his mother's human heritage as the genetic stock used for the looms was Gallifreyan exclusively. Having reread The Infinity Doctors recently, I'm almost tempted to believe that Lance Parkin may have had the same idea.
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Post by sherlock on Aug 20, 2017 9:26:20 GMT
I have not read the book. From what I have heard about it, it's it crazy and revealed too much about the Doctor's past? I think it did quite the opposite, there was no real mystery to The Doctor, he was a Timelord. Lungbarrow introduces elements and possibilities that respin who and what The Doctor is and what might be. And leaves them in the context of half-truths and mysteries. It's the culmination of that line from Remembrance of the Daleks that every fan knows, but never turned up in the broadcast version: "I am far more than just another Time Lord." Marc Platt wove a Gallifrey largely from what was seen in The Deadly Assassin and in the comics by Alan Moore. It was a Gormenghast-like The Castle of Otranto story about the Doctor coming home in the midst of a murder mystery. Paper Cuts had a very similar structure to it, exploring Draconian culture and the Doctor's past in relation to it. What it did reveal for certain was that the Doctor was being groomed by the head of the house to become a politician, perhaps even one day Lord President, but the Doctor himself had other plans. Eventually, his rebellion lead to him being disowned and stuck in a dead-end position as a Scrutationary Archivist at the Bureau of Possible Events until one day he was visited by a fellow member of the House. This man had evidence that the Doctor's birth was illegitimate and came to gloat, he was going to have him executed as a loom-jumper. The Doctor attacked him in a rage and fled in a malfunctioning Type-40 that sent him into Gallifrey's ancient past -- that's why he could never return. If he ever did, they would have destroyed him for that violation.In amongst that is Romana's government being bombed by the CIA in a power move to oust out her presidency, Leela and her K9s attempting to uncover why Lungbarrow disappeared, Chris's visions of the Pythia who ruled in Gallifrey's past before Rassilon, etc. It's the de facto final hurrah for the Seventh Doctor, so there's a lot in there. Doesn't that fall apart somewhat given that when the Time Lords do eventually capture him, they don't hold him accountable for that, just his interfering. The main issue I have with Lungbarrow's account is it's mostly built on the need to stop Susan being his biological granddaughter, so instead makes her this girl he kind of recognises from ancient Gallifrey, who in turn recognises him as her grandfather for reasons she's not quite sure, this is all due to his links to The Other that the NAs were so fond of insinuating about. (This is taken from online synopsises, not from actually reading it, since cheap copies are about as common as hen's teeth, so I could be wrong). That doesn't really gel with their relationship on screen, where they have a deep trust and he really does care for her as his granddaughter, not as some girl he picked up who he vaguely knew for reasons he can't quite understand. I get that Susan being his biological grandfather clashes with the idea of looms, but surely there's a more elegant way around this. Would I crowd-fund Lungbarrow? Tbh I wouldn't, as I'd rather if an adaptation ever were to happen it'd be at Big Finish's own instigation.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2017 10:37:01 GMT
And leaves them in the context of half-truths and mysteries. It's the culmination of that line from Remembrance of the Daleks that every fan knows, but never turned up in the broadcast version: "I am far more than just another Time Lord." Marc Platt wove a Gallifrey largely from what was seen in The Deadly Assassin and in the comics by Alan Moore. It was a Gormenghast-like The Castle of Otranto story about the Doctor coming home in the midst of a murder mystery. Paper Cuts had a very similar structure to it, exploring Draconian culture and the Doctor's past in relation to it. What it did reveal for certain was that the Doctor was being groomed by the head of the house to become a politician, perhaps even one day Lord President, but the Doctor himself had other plans. Eventually, his rebellion lead to him being disowned and stuck in a dead-end position as a Scrutationary Archivist at the Bureau of Possible Events until one day he was visited by a fellow member of the House. This man had evidence that the Doctor's birth was illegitimate and came to gloat, he was going to have him executed as a loom-jumper. The Doctor attacked him in a rage and fled in a malfunctioning Type-40 that sent him into Gallifrey's ancient past -- that's why he could never return. If he ever did, they would have destroyed him for that violation.In amongst that is Romana's government being bombed by the CIA in a power move to oust out her presidency, Leela and her K9s attempting to uncover why Lungbarrow disappeared, Chris's visions of the Pythia who ruled in Gallifrey's past before Rassilon, etc. It's the de facto final hurrah for the Seventh Doctor, so there's a lot in there. Doesn't that fall apart somewhat given that when the Time Lords do eventually capture him, they don't hold him accountable for that, just his interfering. The main issue I have with Lungbarrow's account is it's mostly built on the need to stop Susan being his biological granddaughter, so instead makes her this girl he kind of recognises from ancient Gallifrey, who in turn recognises him as her grandfather for reasons she's not quite sure, this is all due to his links to The Other that the NAs were so fond of insinuating about. (This is taken from online synopsises, not from actually reading it, since cheap copies are about as common as hen's teeth, so I could be wrong). That doesn't really gel with their relationship on screen, where they have a deep trust and he really does care for her as his granddaughter, not as some girl he picked up who he vaguely knew for reasons he can't quite understand. I get that Susan being his biological grandfather clashes with the idea of looms, but surely there's a more elegant way around this. Would I crowd-fund Lungbarrow? Tbh I wouldn't, as I'd rather if an adaptation ever were to happen it'd be at Big Finish's own instigation. Not really. It's no less contradictory than the First and Second Doctor's accounts of why they left Gallifrey; I cannot go back vs. I won't go back. His response to Jamie and Zoe that he was bored in The War Games makes no sense when you consider An Unearthly Child, The Edge of Destruction, The Massacre and other stories that mention their homeworld. As Patience notes in Cold Fusion, the accounts contradict one another. He's probably only telling them part of the truth. That's also not taking into account that the Doctor has become too valuable to simply just kill, you'll notice that his theft of a TARDIS isn't mentioned at his trial as a charge when it should be. I'd definitely read the book in full, that's more a footnote than anything else. Considering that there are numerous stories that take place prior to An Unearthly Child (which the series implied on screen with Quinnis and other mentions), it's not unreasonable that the two of them formed a familial bond. The Doctor had no family at that point in his life anymore, Susan would have been the closest thing to it. She could still have very well been his granddaughter and not given any care whether she lived or died, but that's not in his character. The fact that she's related by blood doesn't automatically guarantee his affection. Besides, the very nature of the Other's death means that she is in a very real sense his biological granddaughter. You can't get anymore real than having some of the same biodata.
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