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Post by rebeltimelord on Sept 13, 2017 1:01:38 GMT
Next year, Doctor Who returns with a new Doctor! And while I'm not ignoring the nuances of the debate over a female Doctor, there's something we need to keep in mind next year.
We have to be prepared to fight. Let's not kid ourselves, there's a nasty underbelly of hate and manipulation right there on the internet, that preys on fandom. And while, yes, Doctor Who is one of the BBC's flagship shows in the UK and abroad and has an audience beyond the internet, we can't undermine the effect this will have. There will be people trying to tear the new series down because there is a woman in the role. They'll be overt and they'll be subtle. I can gurrante you there will be more casual discussions of rumours by 'accident', downright misinformation and carefully constructed b.s. to tear down the series. Some of it even will be in language for people who are invested in supporting women in fandom. They will prey on the vulnerable and the young. Not everyone fills the sad loser archtype.
It's there. It's present. And we have to fight it.
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Post by Whovitt on Sept 13, 2017 1:25:07 GMT
I fully appreciate what you're saying, though I don't think that this particular forum will be an arena for two reasons: 1) It's against the forum rules to have any sort of 'fight'; only considered debates/discussions will be allowed to progress. 2) Most of the members of this forum either support the change or are willing to give Jodie a chance. There are few (vocal) among our number who are still very much against it, but at this point I feel that we have all moved on to the point that we aren't going to let such biases affect the overall behaviour of the community and are (mostly) accepting of our opposing opinions. We are all friends here Yes, there may be new members who come along that are extremely vocal in their negative opinions (we've had similar people already), but if they soapbox then their posts will be removed by the moderators anyway for contravening forum guidelines. Basically, while I agree with you that there will definitely be people out there with issues with the casting, this forum is populated with decent, like-minded folk who want us all to get along and co-exist in an accepting and friendly environment If people want to 'fight' about it they are free to, but I don't think this forum will be the place to do it
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2017 5:06:45 GMT
Besides, the best and strongest way to fight it is to continue watching the show.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2017 11:10:07 GMT
There were people trying to 'tear the series down' because they didn't like Steven Moffat, or RTD, or JNT, or Graham Williams. There were even those who didn't like Philip Hinchcliffe's approach. Who cares about them? They'll watch anyway. It's a television show, not a cause for fighting.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2017 11:51:24 GMT
It's there. It's present. And we have to fight it.
No, we don't. People are entitled to their opinions, just becase some people think differently to you doesn't mean that they need "fighting".
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Post by newt5996 on Sept 13, 2017 19:19:52 GMT
It's there. It's present. And we have to fight it.
No, we don't. People are entitled to their opinions, just becase some people think differently to you doesn't mean that they need "fighting". Agree completely (I'm in reservation about Jodie until I at least see her in a better costume and in action as the Doctor).
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Post by Traveller on Sept 13, 2017 22:32:21 GMT
No, we don't. People are entitled to their opinions, just becase some people think differently to you doesn't mean that they need "fighting". Agree completely (I'm in reservation about Jodie until I at least see her in a better costume and in action as the Doctor). Exactly. I'm one of those vile, horrible, sexists you want to fight. My suggestion is, if your "cause" (such as it is) is so noble, viewers will support it. If the numbers aren't there, and I don't think they will be beyond the 3rd episode, then you're fighting a losing battle. You and I have a right to our opinion, not a right to the airwaves. Try accepting the reality that, in life not everyone is going to be pissing themselves over the same things that send a thrill down your leg. You'll make more friends that way.
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Sept 14, 2017 0:47:02 GMT
Whilst I'm all for fighting sexism and the viler parts of the Doctor Who fandom, I'm really not looking forward to having all my issues with Chibnall (and I'm goin to have at least some, given that he's one of my leasf favorite Doctor Who writers) interpreted as regressive sexism. And I'm sure it's going to happen.
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Post by elkawho on Sept 14, 2017 2:41:42 GMT
Hey, I'm a female Doctor Who fan who has strong reservations about the decision to cast a female Doctor. But I don't plan to fight anyone. If I don't like it, I'll not watch it and listen to more Big Finish.
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Post by rebeltimelord on Sept 14, 2017 2:50:55 GMT
Hey, I've heard you guys are a good bunch of people to talk to. However, I was specifically talking about wider fandom. Not everywhere is The Divergent Universe.
That said: it doesn't matter if you have reservations over a female Doctor. It's bigger then that. You guys seem ready to test the idea, which is great, even if you have reasons agasint the change. I have reservations around Chibnall (I think I'm the only person on the planet who wasn't wowed over by Broadchurch and his previous Who episodes aren't exactly my favourites)
RTD didn't have to deal with a large subset organised part of the internet dedicated to tearing down his take on the show because he was gay he decided to have LGBT characters and a co-female lead. And believe me, if the New Series launched today, it'd be there. A lot of them wouldn't say it directly, but it'd be there. There would be rants about how the series is 'politically correct' Who, taking the ethos of the show to unreasonable extremes. Jack would be vilified, The Doctor's attraction to men would be held high as a huge example of this. Rose's maglient qualities would be zeroed in. While I don't know how much it would affect the series launch in the UK, abroad, it'd be a different story. I honestly believe if Who wasn't an established show thanks to Matt Smith, it wouldn't be the success that it is in America that it is now and elsewhere. There are fans of Doctor Who and our stuff generally who, sadly, will push through the darkest things through fandom , and there are people who aren't even fans (Nazis, White Supremicists, homophobes and good old fashioned misgonists) who will intersect themselves into fandoms to use it as a platform to spread their beliefs and taint the younger generation and others.
You see it in comic book fandom, sadly - where people push a narrative that Marvel is focusing too much on the younger diverse heroes kids (who are a great jumping on point for new readers), despite the younger kids existing in their own bubble away from the adult heroes and Marvel even had to address it in a video for promoting a upcommiong event. Or with shakeups with like Amadeus Cho taking over the mantle of Hulk and with Bruce being dead (despite everyone knowing how comic book death works and Bruce's return inevitable due to the MCU) or Riri Williams and Tony Stark (where she isn't Iron Man and her story is all about how her actions as a hero will affect Tony when he returns) or Thor.
I'm not saying these changes weren't going to cause a stir - they were - and people have every right NOT to like them - but there are people for nefarious agendas who will use that stir to lure the young to re-enforce some very dark agendas or use it to tear down these characters because their people of colour. They'll focus on why these new characters are attached to existing legacies, rather then being new characters in their own right, when they know that the comic book industry isn't in the best of shape right now and can't push these characters that way. Sometimes this is out of ignorance, but a lot of it is designed to re-enforce their agenda.
Even Iceman, who recently discovered he was gay, was a victim of this, and it's freakin' X-Men (I mean, they do reliase people discover that their gay after relationships with women?) Now, yes, there's a difference between a flagship TV peogram and comic books, but I can't deny it's influence. I hope I'm wrong, but I think the shit is about to hit the fan for this fandom in a BIG way and we need to be there when it does to protect our show and it's legacy.
In wider fandom, we can't be passive. We need to call this shit out.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 3:17:48 GMT
Hey, I've heard you guys are a good bunch of people to talk to. However, I was specifically talking about wider fandom. Not everywhere is The Divergent Universe. That said: it doesn't matter if you have reservations over a female Doctor. It's bigger then that. You guys seem ready to test the idea, which is great, even if you have reasons agasint the change. I have reservations around Chibnall (I think I'm the only person on the planet who wasn't wowed over by Broadchurch and his previous Who episodes aren't exactly my favourites) RTD didn't have to deal with a large subset organised part of the internet dedicated to tearing down his take on the show because he was gay he decided to have LGBT characters and a co-female lead. And believe me, if the New Series launched today, it'd be there. A lot of them wouldn't say it directly, but it'd be there. There would be rants about how the series is 'politically correct' Who, taking the ethos of the show to unreasonable extremes. Jack would be vilified, The Doctor's attraction to men would be held high as a huge example of this. Rose's maglient qualities would be zeroed in. While I don't know how much it would affect the series launch in the UK, abroad, it'd be a different story. I honestly believe if Who wasn't an established show thanks to Matt Smith, it wouldn't be the success that it is in America that it is now and elsewhere. There are fans of Doctor Who and our stuff generally who, sadly, will push through the darkest things through fandom , and there are people who aren't even fans (Nazis, White Supremicists, homophobes and good old fashioned misgonists) who will intersect themselves into fandoms to use it as a platform to spread their beliefs and taint the younger generation and others. You see it in comic book fandom, sadly - where people push a narrative that Marvel is focusing too much on the younger diverse heroes kids (who are a great jumping on point for new readers), despite the younger kids existing in their own bubble away from the adult heroes and Marvel even had to address it in a video for promoting a upcommiong event. Or with shakeups with like Amadeus Cho taking over the mantle of Hulk and with Bruce being dead (despite everyone knowing how comic book death works and Bruce's return inevitable due to the MCU) or Riri Williams and Tony Stark (where she isn't Iron Man and her story is all about how her actions as a hero will affect Tony when he returns) or Thor. I'm not saying these changes weren't going to cause a stir - they were - and people have every right NOT to like them - but there are people for nefarious agendas who will use that stir to lure the young to re-enforce some very dark agendas or use it to tear down these characters because their people of colour. They'll focus on why these new characters are attached to existing legacies, rather then being new characters in their own right, when they know that the comic book industry isn't in the best of shape right now and can't push these characters that way. Sometimes this is out of ignorance, but a lot of it is designed to re-enforce their agenda. Even Iceman, who recently discovered he was gay, was a victim of this, and it's freakin' X-Men (I mean, they do reliase people discover that their gay after relationships with women?) Now, yes, there's a difference between a flagship TV peogram and comic books, but I can't deny it's influence. I hope I'm wrong, but I think the shit is about to hit the fan for this fandom in a BIG way and we need to be there when it does to protect our show and it's legacy. In wider fandom, we can't be passive. We need to call this shit out. I think you're right. You can see it institutionalised in adaptations of series like Sailor Moon of all things (the lesbian couple turned into "cousins"). I believe that a lot of people here will take others to task for genuinely bigoted behaviour in their own way. It's great that you want to champion inclusivity so much, you needn't worry though. Based on experience, I think we'll call this stuff out when we see it. Me personally, I'll try to be measured and give people the benefit of the doubt. If it persists... Well, then we'll do what we always do in these situations -- talk to people and find out their motivations.
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Post by rebeltimelord on Sept 14, 2017 5:12:59 GMT
Hey, I've heard you guys are a good bunch of people to talk to. However, I was specifically talking about wider fandom. Not everywhere is The Divergent Universe. That said: it doesn't matter if you have reservations over a female Doctor. It's bigger then that. You guys seem ready to test the idea, which is great, even if you have reasons agasint the change. I have reservations around Chibnall (I think I'm the only person on the planet who wasn't wowed over by Broadchurch and his previous Who episodes aren't exactly my favourites) RTD didn't have to deal with a large subset organised part of the internet dedicated to tearing down his take on the show because he was gay he decided to have LGBT characters and a co-female lead. And believe me, if the New Series launched today, it'd be there. A lot of them wouldn't say it directly, but it'd be there. There would be rants about how the series is 'politically correct' Who, taking the ethos of the show to unreasonable extremes. Jack would be vilified, The Doctor's attraction to men would be held high as a huge example of this. Rose's maglient qualities would be zeroed in. While I don't know how much it would affect the series launch in the UK, abroad, it'd be a different story. I honestly believe if Who wasn't an established show thanks to Matt Smith, it wouldn't be the success that it is in America that it is now and elsewhere. There are fans of Doctor Who and our stuff generally who, sadly, will push through the darkest things through fandom , and there are people who aren't even fans (Nazis, White Supremicists, homophobes and good old fashioned misgonists) who will intersect themselves into fandoms to use it as a platform to spread their beliefs and taint the younger generation and others. You see it in comic book fandom, sadly - where people push a narrative that Marvel is focusing too much on the younger diverse heroes kids (who are a great jumping on point for new readers), despite the younger kids existing in their own bubble away from the adult heroes and Marvel even had to address it in a video for promoting a upcommiong event. Or with shakeups with like Amadeus Cho taking over the mantle of Hulk and with Bruce being dead (despite everyone knowing how comic book death works and Bruce's return inevitable due to the MCU) or Riri Williams and Tony Stark (where she isn't Iron Man and her story is all about how her actions as a hero will affect Tony when he returns) or Thor. I'm not saying these changes weren't going to cause a stir - they were - and people have every right NOT to like them - but there are people for nefarious agendas who will use that stir to lure the young to re-enforce some very dark agendas or use it to tear down these characters because their people of colour. They'll focus on why these new characters are attached to existing legacies, rather then being new characters in their own right, when they know that the comic book industry isn't in the best of shape right now and can't push these characters that way. Sometimes this is out of ignorance, but a lot of it is designed to re-enforce their agenda. Even Iceman, who recently discovered he was gay, was a victim of this, and it's freakin' X-Men (I mean, they do reliase people discover that their gay after relationships with women?) Now, yes, there's a difference between a flagship TV peogram and comic books, but I can't deny it's influence. I hope I'm wrong, but I think the shit is about to hit the fan for this fandom in a BIG way and we need to be there when it does to protect our show and it's legacy. In wider fandom, we can't be passive. We need to call this shit out. I think you're right. You can see it institutionalised in adaptations of series like Sailor Moon of all things (the lesbian couple turned into "cousins"). I believe that a lot of people here will take others to task for genuinely bigoted behaviour in their own way. It's great that you want to champion inclusivity so much, you needn't worry though. Based on experience, I think we'll call this stuff out when we see it. Me personally, I'll try to be measured and give people the benefit of the doubt. If it persists... Well, then we'll do what we always do in these situations -- talk to people and find out their motivations. Well, that's good to hear
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Post by barnabaslives on Sept 14, 2017 23:33:18 GMT
There are fans of Doctor Who and our stuff generally who, sadly, will push through the darkest things through fandom , and there are people who aren't even fans (Nazis, White Supremicists, homophobes and good old fashioned misgonists) who will intersect themselves into fandoms to use it as a platform to spread their beliefs and taint the younger generation and others. You see it in comic book fandom, sadly - where people push a narrative that Marvel is focusing too much on the younger diverse heroes kids (who are a great jumping on point for new readers), despite the younger kids existing in their own bubble away from the adult heroes and Marvel even had to address it in a video for promoting a upcommiong event. Or with shakeups with like Amadeus Cho taking over the mantle of Hulk and with Bruce being dead (despite everyone knowing how comic book death works and Bruce's return inevitable due to the MCU) or Riri Williams and Tony Stark (where she isn't Iron Man and her story is all about how her actions as a hero will affect Tony when he returns) or Thor. I'm not saying these changes weren't going to cause a stir - they were - and people have every right NOT to like them - but there are people for nefarious agendas who will use that stir to lure the young to re-enforce some very dark agendas or use it to tear down these characters because their people of colour. They'll focus on why these new characters are attached to existing legacies, rather then being new characters in their own right, when they know that the comic book industry isn't in the best of shape right now and can't push these characters that way. Sometimes this is out of ignorance, but a lot of it is designed to re-enforce their agenda. I don't know why, but I still like to think personally that comics can come up with new and successful characters rather than turning existing characters into flagships of diversity. I also suspect it might provide the ne'er-do-wells with less ammunition if they would do that, rather than risking someone's new-found distaste for Group Y because their favorite hero Captain X was just "ruined" by being made into a member of Group Y. I'm still tempted to think it's just sort of lazy to refurbish established characters, or that it's disrespectful to established audiences (who might have helped put some of the same franchises where they were in the first place) as well as to characters, to just re-write character history. Something else you've touched on here that I think may be relevant is the impermanence of things in the fictional world. Consider that I wasn't very happy about a female Doctor in the first 48 hours, I pictured it as the onset of Marvel Syndrome with the apocalyptic end of the franchise soon to follow, but my head was easily turned by discovering that the Doctor's potential to represent womankind actually meant something to anyone (I had just figured everyone for indifferent without really thinking about it, actually) and it's about time someone else has a turn if it means something to them. If nothing else, I'm happy enough for them about it to be happy myself with the change - but I already also feel bad to think that a female Doctor may not get to be something they get to keep, going forward or backward in time. One more Doctor and these poor kids will likely be pining away for "the good old days" like a few too many of us already might do. :-) That said, I think you may be right - individuals or groups that want to promote hate are probably likely to seize upon what's new in the world of Doctor Who or the world of fiction in general (in addition to anything else they can get their hands on) in order to further their agendas. Come to think of it, comics might be an attractive target because there is a kind of intimacy (we get to see a character's innermost thought balloons, daily struggles, and private heartbreaks) that could make a very good exercise in building sympathy and compassion. Whether one is going to directly grapple with misuse of opposition to aspects of the show, or "fight the good fight" simply by continuing to try to watch and support the series, I can't really think of what would be wrong with a little preparedness. Maybe the best thing I can think of to do, is to know where you stand and stand firm, and be wary of being swept off course by someone's underhanded attempt to further some hate agenda - such attempts can come from many directions, in many forms. Watchfulness can be very helpful - once in a while, a really good one tries to get me and I have to ask, "Okay, how did I just end up sounding like someone that only ten minutes ago I probably won't have liked very much" and then we have a verrrry careful review of what I was reading in the last ten minutes. Preparedness also to try to be extra careful where someone else is coming from might not be a bad idea either, not only to help sort out who's opposed to something because they do have the wrong interests, but also to recognize those who don't have hateful reasons for being opposed to something. I think we might have started out of the gate with the new Doctor with some misunderstandings where some of those jubilating over the news were misconstrued as gloating, and those who weren't as sure it was good news tended to be misconstrued as sexist. Hopefully those misunderstandings are mostly a thing of the past here now, although they may still be awaiting others out there. Especially if someone tries to use heroic characters as a vehicle for subversive intolerance, though, hopefully we can always look to our heroes themselves - would the Second Doctor approve of my attitude about the Thirteen Doctor? Would the Third Doctor, or the Fourth? That may be a good compass to steer by actually. Who'd want to be scolded by Ol' Sixie for having a bad attitude? Not I! :-)
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Post by rebeltimelord on Sept 15, 2017 0:09:25 GMT
Next year, Doctor Who returns with a new Doctor! And while I'm not ignoring the nuances of the debate over a female Doctor, there's something we need to keep in mind next year.
We have to be prepared to fight. Let's not kid ourselves, there's a nasty underbelly of hate and manipulation right there on the internet, that preys on fandom. And while, yes, Doctor Who is one of the BBC's flagship shows in the UK and abroad and has an audience beyond the internet, we can't undermine the effect this will have. There will be people trying to tear the new series down because there is a woman in the role. They'll be overt and they'll be subtle. I can gurrante you there will be more casual discussions of rumours by 'accident', downright misinformation and carefully constructed b.s. to tear down the series. Some of it even will be in language for people who are invested in supporting women in fandom. They will prey on the vulnerable and the young. Not everyone fills the sad loser archtype.
It's there. It's present. And we have to fight it. So what you're saying is that people aren't allowed to cirticise the decision to make the Doctor a woman? If so, you're wrong. This sort of thing is subjective. I'm not sure that's what you mean, though, so... yeah...
Um, this was in my opening statement:
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2017 0:21:56 GMT
There are fans of Doctor Who and our stuff generally who, sadly, will push through the darkest things through fandom , and there are people who aren't even fans (Nazis, White Supremicists, homophobes and good old fashioned misgonists) who will intersect themselves into fandoms to use it as a platform to spread their beliefs and taint the younger generation and others. You see it in comic book fandom, sadly - where people push a narrative that Marvel is focusing too much on the younger diverse heroes kids (who are a great jumping on point for new readers), despite the younger kids existing in their own bubble away from the adult heroes and Marvel even had to address it in a video for promoting a upcommiong event. Or with shakeups with like Amadeus Cho taking over the mantle of Hulk and with Bruce being dead (despite everyone knowing how comic book death works and Bruce's return inevitable due to the MCU) or Riri Williams and Tony Stark (where she isn't Iron Man and her story is all about how her actions as a hero will affect Tony when he returns) or Thor. I'm not saying these changes weren't going to cause a stir - they were - and people have every right NOT to like them - but there are people for nefarious agendas who will use that stir to lure the young to re-enforce some very dark agendas or use it to tear down these characters because their people of colour. They'll focus on why these new characters are attached to existing legacies, rather then being new characters in their own right, when they know that the comic book industry isn't in the best of shape right now and can't push these characters that way. Sometimes this is out of ignorance, but a lot of it is designed to re-enforce their agenda. I don't know why, but I still like to think personally that comics can come up with new and successful characters rather than turning existing characters into flagships of diversity. I also suspect it might provide the ne'er-do-wells with less ammunition if they would do that, rather than risking someone's new-found distaste for Group Y because their favorite hero Captain X was just "ruined" by being made into a member of Group Y. I'm still tempted to think it's just sort of lazy to refurbish established characters, or that it's disrespectful to established audiences (who might have helped put some of the same franchises where they were in the first place) as well as to characters, to just re-write character history. Something else you've touched on here that I think may be relevant is the impermanence of things in the fictional world. Consider that I wasn't very happy about a female Doctor in the first 48 hours, I pictured it as the onset of Marvel Syndrome with the apocalyptic end of the franchise soon to follow, but my head was easily turned by discovering that the Doctor's potential to represent womankind actually meant something to anyone (I had just figured everyone for indifferent without really thinking about it, actually) and it's about time someone else has a turn if it means something to them. If nothing else, I'm happy enough for them about it to be happy myself with the change - but I already also feel bad to think that a female Doctor may not get to be something they get to keep, going forward or backward in time. One more Doctor and these poor kids will likely be pining away for "the good old days" like a few too many of us already might do. :-) That said, I think you may be right - individuals or groups that want to promote hate are probably likely to seize upon what's new in the world of Doctor Who or the world of fiction in general (in addition to anything else they can get their hands on) in order to further their agendas. Come to think of it, comics might be an attractive target because there is a kind of intimacy (we get to see a character's innermost thought balloons, daily struggles, and private heartbreaks) that could make a very good exercise in building sympathy and compassion. Whether one is going to directly grapple with misuse of opposition to aspects of the show, or "fight the good fight" simply by continuing to try to watch and support the series, I can't really think of what would be wrong with a little preparedness. Maybe the best thing I can think of to do, is to know where you stand and stand firm, and be wary of being swept off course by someone's underhanded attempt to further some hate agenda - such attempts can come from many directions, in many forms. Watchfulness can be very helpful - once in a while, a really good one tries to get me and I have to ask, "Okay, how did I just end up sounding like someone that only ten minutes ago I probably won't have liked very much" and then we have a verrrry careful review of what I was reading in the last ten minutes. Preparedness also to try to be extra careful where someone else is coming from might not be a bad idea either, not only to help sort out who's opposed to something because they do have the wrong interests, but also to recognize those who don't have hateful reasons for being opposed to something. I think we might have started out of the gate with the new Doctor with some misunderstandings where some of those jubilating over the news were misconstrued as gloating, and those who weren't as sure it was good news tended to be misconstrued as sexist. Hopefully those misunderstandings are mostly a thing of the past here now, although they may still be awaiting others out there. Especially if someone tries to use heroic characters as a vehicle for subversive intolerance, though, hopefully we can always look to our heroes themselves - would the Second Doctor approve of my attitude about the Thirteen Doctor? Would the Third Doctor, or the Fourth? That may be a good compass to steer by actually. Who'd want to be scolded by Ol' Sixie for having a bad attitude? Not I! :-) Absolutely. It's alright if people are going "I dunno... I'm not sure about this..." or "Brilliant! Can't wait for this!", just so long as they're not trying to push some ulterior agenda. Change can be both worrisome and exciting (sometimes at the same time) and that's fine. Perfectly, genuinely and honestly fine. It's only the causes where you must swear fealty to hate someone to be accepted that are cause for worry and you know, these people are outliers. I was reading a really good Alain de Botton book the other day that hit the point precisely, I'll dig it up and transcribe it:
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Post by rebeltimelord on Sept 15, 2017 1:01:11 GMT
There are fans of Doctor Who and our stuff generally who, sadly, will push through the darkest things through fandom , and there are people who aren't even fans (Nazis, White Supremicists, homophobes and good old fashioned misgonists) who will intersect themselves into fandoms to use it as a platform to spread their beliefs and taint the younger generation and others. You see it in comic book fandom, sadly - where people push a narrative that Marvel is focusing too much on the younger diverse heroes kids (who are a great jumping on point for new readers), despite the younger kids existing in their own bubble away from the adult heroes and Marvel even had to address it in a video for promoting a upcommiong event. Or with shakeups with like Amadeus Cho taking over the mantle of Hulk and with Bruce being dead (despite everyone knowing how comic book death works and Bruce's return inevitable due to the MCU) or Riri Williams and Tony Stark (where she isn't Iron Man and her story is all about how her actions as a hero will affect Tony when he returns) or Thor. I'm not saying these changes weren't going to cause a stir - they were - and people have every right NOT to like them - but there are people for nefarious agendas who will use that stir to lure the young to re-enforce some very dark agendas or use it to tear down these characters because their people of colour. They'll focus on why these new characters are attached to existing legacies, rather then being new characters in their own right, when they know that the comic book industry isn't in the best of shape right now and can't push these characters that way. Sometimes this is out of ignorance, but a lot of it is designed to re-enforce their agenda. Preparedness also to try to be extra careful where someone else is coming from might not be a bad idea either, not only to help sort out who's opposed to something because they do have the wrong interests, but also to recognize those who don't have hateful reasons for being opposed to something. I think we might have started out of the gate with the new Doctor with some misunderstandings where some of those jubilating over the news were misconstrued as gloating, and those who weren't as sure it was good news tended to be misconstrued as sexist. Hopefully those misunderstandings are mostly a thing of the past here now, although they may still be awaiting others out there.
Oh, yeah, and it especially comes from younger fans who mean well with the social justice stuff, but miss the mark so much. I get it guys, you want to see things change in the world, but change needs time. Changing the world takes time and sadly at a pace.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2017 1:09:28 GMT
Preparedness also to try to be extra careful where someone else is coming from might not be a bad idea either, not only to help sort out who's opposed to something because they do have the wrong interests, but also to recognize those who don't have hateful reasons for being opposed to something. I think we might have started out of the gate with the new Doctor with some misunderstandings where some of those jubilating over the news were misconstrued as gloating, and those who weren't as sure it was good news tended to be misconstrued as sexist. Hopefully those misunderstandings are mostly a thing of the past here now, although they may still be awaiting others out there.
Oh, yeah, and it especially comes from younger fans who mean well with the social justice stuff, but miss the mark so much. I get it guys, you want to see things change in the world, but change needs time. Changing the world takes time and sadly at a pace.
Mmm, little steps over a long period of time can mean just as much as the sudden, really big ones. Maybe even more, I can't rightly say.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Sept 15, 2017 9:08:37 GMT
I am prepared to fight anyone who says anything sexist or misogynistic.
By that, I don't mean anyone who simply says they don't like the idea. Just those who spout sexist rubbish like 'They should rename it Nurse Who'.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,721
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Post by shutupbanks on Sept 15, 2017 12:08:40 GMT
Hey, I'm a female Doctor Who fan who has strong reservations about the decision to cast a female Doctor. But I don't plan to fight anyone. If I don't like it, I'll not watch it and listen to more Big Finish. As you young people say on Tumbrl: THIS! When we get down to it, my line in the sand is not a TV show that has changed so that I don't enjoy it any more (not that I'm anticipating that here, of course).
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Post by rebeltimelord on Sept 16, 2017 0:09:12 GMT
Um, this was in my opening statement:
I still don't understand. What are you trying to say? Well, in full: I also went on to further explain my point about people manipulate others in fandom for very dark agendas and sometimes people infilitrate fandom who aren't fans to further dark agendas. I also went on to say I'm glad this forum isn't one of those places, which is good
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