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Post by jasonward on Sept 19, 2017 17:33:16 GMT
Want to see what other people think will be the outcome of Brexit atm.
The poll is about what you think will happen, not about what you want to happen.
At the moment, I'm struggling to see how the negotiations can be anything other than a failure, if for no other reason but time, I see politicians talking about the negotiations like everything can be resolved, and if we had 5 or so years to do it, I would believe them, but... I just don't believe them given the time we have.
Secondly will we actually exit? I still think it likely we will, but as I watch things unfold, each day it seems the reason for not leaving are piling up, and I don't just mean the political arguments for why, I more mean the practical reasons. Everyone talks about us reverting to WTO rules for trade, fair enough, but our relationship with the EU is so much more than trade, and all that has to be resolved too, along with who is going to pay for it all, and if the negotiations fail, what then?
But like I say, I'm asking because I want to know what people think is happening and what people think will happen, not (in the case of this thread) to go over why it should or should not be a certain way.
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
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Post by aztec on Sept 19, 2017 18:07:50 GMT
I don't know enough about the EU or our options for dealing with them to say for definite, the optimist in me hopes for a 3-5 year transitional deal with an arrangement to stay in the EEA for a few years to avoid a hard brexit cliff edge and/or hoping we will simply abandon the idea (I voted Remain largely for economic reasons, I have no emotional attachment to the EU nor do I identify as European, I just didn't see a convincing argument for leaving, with every passing day I'm growing more and more worried about the possible economic fallout, feeling more and more convinced even the Brexiteers in the Goverment don't know what they want or to expect when we Leave, and with the likes of Thresa May/Boris Johnson deciding our negotiating strategy I don't expect a good deal from the EU)
The pessimistic realist in me thinks we will crash out of the EU with no deal in place, revert to WTO rules for trading, and worse case scenario potentially tank the economy in the process and see the United Kingdom split apart within 15 years, the ignorant onlooker just wants this whole unpleasant business over and done with one way or another.
I think the chances of us changing our minds and remaining are nill (that's assuming the EU 27 would even agree to rescind Article 50), but if Brexit goes as badly as some fear I wouldn't be surprised to see Labour with the next 5 years campaign to take us back into the EU...
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Post by mark687 on Sept 19, 2017 19:09:00 GMT
It will a workable cause we all input something into each others infrastructures but not perfect outcome unless worldwide industry collectively goes "No new or at least minimal trade tariffs" our finical saving will be smaller then expected. Immigration will fall but not drastically as migrants from non EU countries will increase. The hope at the moment I believe is that Law & Order policies will stay pretty much the same expect that someone who committed crime in the UK would be subject to UK statutes over EU statutes, but we will definitely exit as almost every person over 50 seems to want it regardless of any outcome.
Regards
mark687
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Stevo
Chancellery Guard
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Post by Stevo on Sept 19, 2017 23:35:06 GMT
I'm still in the 'I'll believe it when I see it' camp...
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Post by jasonward on Sept 19, 2017 23:41:55 GMT
I'm still in the 'I'll believe it when I see it' camp... What do you think will happen to the negotiations?
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Post by number13 on Sept 20, 2017 0:39:39 GMT
I think the negotiations will be 'OK' in the sense that there will be a deal. We are still in the warmup phase; the real deal-making will start after the German elections, not long now. I think there is far more progress being made than we are hearing - the main news programmes often seem to dismiss every statement the UK side makes and unquestioningly believe every statement the EU side makes, which may give dramatic headlines but gives a very strange picture of events. We won't leave quickly or cleanly whatever Article 50 says, there will be a variety of transition periods because there will have to be. We will pay some substantial money to cover EU costs when we leave (£20-£30Bn?) and we will get a trade deal because otherwise the EU will quite quickly find itself (after we leave) the only major trading partner with whom we don't have a deal.
I think we will leave, providing the Conservatives remain in government. If Labour were to take office, I haven't a clue what would happen. Not because of the views or abilities of either party, simply because I think I'm right in saying that almost all Conservative MPs represent areas which voted Leave, whereas for Labour MPs it's about 50/50. What do you think the reaction of voters would be to a local MP who went against their democratically expressed will on such a major issue?
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Post by muckypup on Sept 20, 2017 3:15:32 GMT
We have left.......the article has been triggered.....there is no real way back now.
We are now only fighting over the stuff we can keep & the stuff we need to pay for.
There is a whole world of possibilities out there for trade, that's what this government is chasing, not just to be tied to a Europe deal.
The one thing May is right on, is that no deal with Europe is better than a restricted fee laden one.
But the road ahead will be a bumpy one, with interest rates on the rise, inflation on the rise and the only real way to pay for everything the changes will bring is an income tax rise too....or the quietly mooted savings grab.
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lidar2
Castellan

You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Sept 20, 2017 10:37:15 GMT
I can't see how we won't leave when both 2 main parties (who between them got their highest combined share of the vote since the 1970s at the recent election) are in favour of it. The prospect of either party getting a new pro-Remain leader before 2019 is almost nil.
I think there are very mixed feelings on Brexit out there. On the one hand, as the consequences of leaving become more apparent, a lot of Brexiteers may be regretting their vote to leave. On the other hand, the more Europe (apparently) tries to screw us on the exit deal the more I am inclined to react emotionally and tell the EU where to stick it and go for no deal - and I was a Remainer to begin with!
Personally I think as well as the paying our share of the EU laibilities, the EU should be paying us for our share of EU assets, but that doesn't even seem to be on the agenda.
I do not think the Tories would suffer in the opinion polls in the short term if they went for no deal, they may even get a bounce for "standing up strongly for Britain". That, as much as anything else, makes me think there may be no deal.
If no deal, I think the Tories will try to turn the UK into an offshore tax haven with very low corporation tax rates to attract investment and offset the costs of being outside the single market. Other taxes would then have to rise to pay for the corporation tax cut or else start running up a large deficit.
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Post by jasonward on Sept 20, 2017 11:23:30 GMT
Personally I think as well as the paying our share of the EU laibilities, the EU should be paying us for our share of EU assets, but that doesn't even seem to be on the agenda. I never even thought of EU assets in this before, so I did some Googling, very few people seem to have covered this except the more pro-Brexit press here in the UK, The Daily Express says "more than £4.2billion" worth of property assets and a satellite system worth around £240million. Which sounds like big number... until you realise that the EU send more than that per year back to the UK.
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Stevo
Chancellery Guard
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Post by Stevo on Sept 20, 2017 12:00:30 GMT
I'm still in the 'I'll believe it when I see it' camp... What do you think will happen to the negotiations? I think Theresa May will be gone before the negotiations conclude for a start, and if that ultimately causes a General Election in the UK anything could happen. 18 months is a long time in politics! So I'll believe in Brexit when it actually happens.
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Post by pazzer on Sept 20, 2017 13:52:13 GMT
I expect them to fail. As the government doesn't seem to have any kind of plan and negotiations for other things take many years to agree upon. Plus the nearer we get to the deadline for a deal the stronger EU position becomes and I can't see taking a bad deal just so can say we got a deal. Am positive we will exit as two main parties support it.
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Post by sherlock on Sept 20, 2017 15:14:09 GMT
We will leave, that much is certain. Everything else is up in the air and based on the talks so far I'm not hopeful of a good deal being reached.
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Post by number13 on Sept 20, 2017 23:32:59 GMT
Personally I've found BBC Newsnight easily the best broadcasts for Brexit negotiation news over recent months and again this evening (20th).
I've gained a quite different impression of events compared with the lazy 'it's a disaster, nothing is happening' story that the media generally seem to be running. Things are happening; how it all works out is another matter but personally I'm hopeful of a reasonable deal because I don't think either side is as inflexible as sometimes made out.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Sept 22, 2017 11:52:45 GMT
so where they gonna find this "20 Billion" euro's
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Post by muckypup on Sept 22, 2017 12:08:20 GMT
so where they gonna find this "20 Billion" euro's the magic money tree!
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Post by jasonward on Sept 22, 2017 12:13:47 GMT
so where they gonna find this "20 Billion" euro's 20Bn Euro is about £17.5Bn. I expect that as it's a 2 year deal that in effect allows the UK to continue to access a lot of what the EU is, and as members of the EU we would have been paying around £26Bn over two years (based on 2016 forecasts), I suspect its coming from that. The difficulty that I see, is of course that even so, we will at the same time loose access to a lo of what is the EU, otherwise it just moves the cliff edge forward by 2 years, so expenses will increase in other areas and not be able to be funded out of the monies that would have gone to the EU, as that money is still going to the EU, we also I would imagine, will loose immediately on leaving the monies the EU sends/spends in the UK (around £8bn over the same 2 year period). Basically, the 20Bn Euro's appears to be the nett payments we would have made to the EU had we remained in for those 2 years.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2017 14:39:35 GMT
What happens if the EU doesn't accept this, do we think? Is that where a 'no deal' becomes reality?
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Post by mark687 on Sept 22, 2017 14:53:17 GMT
What happens if the EU doesn't accept this, do we think? Is that where a 'no deal' becomes reality? I can't believe every Member Country in the EU will go "That's ok we don't want any kind of Trade / Security relationship with the UK from March 2019".
Regards
mark687
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Post by jasonward on Sept 22, 2017 15:06:37 GMT
What happens if the EU doesn't accept this, do we think? Is that where a 'no deal' becomes reality? I can't believe every Member Country in the EU will go "That's ok we don't want any kind of Trade / Security relationship with the UK from March 2019".
Regards
mark687
Yeah, it does seem that a deal is in everyone's interests, and this proposal may well go a long way to closing the gap between the sides, but I can still see there being no agreement, not because that's what anyone wants, but because they just can't agree. I liken it to a marriage divorce, it would be in everyone interest if the divorce was agreed amicably, but often despite that, no agreement can be reached and a court imposes and outcome, only in the case of the UK and EU, there is no court to impose.
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Post by number13 on Sept 22, 2017 15:14:27 GMT
so where they gonna find this "20 Billion" euro's 20Bn Euro is about £17.5Bn. I expect that as it's a 2 year deal that in effect allows the UK to continue to access a lot of what the EU is, and as members of the EU we would have been paying around £26Bn over two years (based on 2016 forecasts), I suspect its coming from that. The difficulty that I see, is of course that even so, we will at the same time loose access to a lo of what is the EU, otherwise it just moves the cliff edge forward by 2 years, so expenses will increase in other areas and not be able to be funded out of the monies that would have gone to the EU, as that money is still going to the EU, we also I would imagine, will loose immediately on leaving the monies the EU sends/spends in the UK (around £8bn over the same 2 year period). Basically, the 20Bn Euro's appears to be the nett payments we would have made to the EU had we remained in for those 2 years. Could this be heading for a classic Euro-fudge (being positive: a compromise  )? We pay in for two more years while we effectively do stay in for two more years with full access and obligations. They call it a "transition period" but it's really an extended membership without the political cost on either side of agreeing one, while the UK gradually puts in place all the machinery and starts running (in parallel) those systems that will be needed to make the final deal function? (Border & customs technology, UK\EU citizens' rights abroad, financial clearing, etc.) Otherwise there would be a chaotic practical cliff edge, whether we think Brexit is/not the right idea long-term. The EU gets the money and no hole in their budget, we get interim deals like: we stay in the Customs Union and abide by the rules (so no signing bilateral trade deals for the two years) but we do get the OK to negotiate them over that period.
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