Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 10:56:35 GMT
JOB DONE ! Granted Johnson has won a sizeable majority from an electorate thoroughly sick to of death of Brexit, a weak and ineffectual opposition operating on a hard left agenda that should have died out a long time ago and some truly shambolic campaigning. But job done? Right now the onus will solely be on Johnson and the Conservatives for everything. They will have to meet all the promises they made during the campaign - more money for the NHS, education, social care, more nurses, more police officers, more teachers and they will have to deal with the fallout from when they inevitably break those promises. Speaking of the NHS..Johnson promised that it would not be on the table in a trade deal and Trump pretty much stated the same. Which I might have been able to accept...if it wasn't for the small fact that both men have a proven record with being shall we say 'far from honest' with the facts. If or rather when it happens the Conservatives will be solely responsible for the huge fallout from the public over such a betrayal. There is more. While the Conservatives have certainly made capital out the shameful anti-semitism that has festered in Labour under Corbyn's watch, it has shielded it's eyes from the shameful Islamphobia that festers within it's own ranks and the racist and homophobic remarks of it's own leader. Quite how a person can preach 'one nation Conservatism' in one breath which pandering to those on the furthest fringes of the right in the next is something I will never understand, but scapegoating tax paying EU nationals and insulting both the Muslim communities and people who are LGBTQ, many of whom are propping up our infrastructure will inevitably come back to haunt him..and yes, he will have to deal with the fallout from that. They will have to meet the expectations of those who want to 'get Brexit done' and those communities in the north who believed Johnson will deliver the 'sunlit uplands' of investment promised during the Referendum, and they will have to deal with the fallout from when they inevitably break those expectations. I accept he can lead Britain out of the EU at the end of next month, but the likelihood of a trade deal being completed within eleven months is almost non existent as Michael Barnier has suggested it could be at least 2021/22 or beyond. So in due course Johnson and the Conservatives will have to deal with the fallout from the fantasy they peddled. And I also accept that he could just crash out and trade on WTO terms by the end of next year...except what hasn't been mentioned in the media that much is that of a couple of days ago the WTO was effectively crippled by President Trump who has blocked the appointment of judges to it's dispute panel. If we traded on WTO terms we would be a small minnow paddling in a sea of sharks...and without the slightest recourse in a dispute against a more powerful country. We would be royally shafted. And guess who would get to deal with the fallout from a furious business community if that happens? Then there is Scotland and Northern Ireland. As you know the SNP has made significant gains and undoubtedly Sturgeon will push and push hard for a 2nd Independence Referendum. Undoubtedly Johnson will do exactly what he and his predecessor did before : stick their fingers in their ears and pretend they cannot hear anything. But I think this time the clamour will be harder to ignore and it will be harder to ignore because of Northern Ireland. For the first time the Unionists do not have the majority and people over there are starting to realise just what a stitch up the EU deal is. Despite a fresh coat of paint it is still May's deal. There will be borders, despite Johnson's assurances. I have friends living in Belfast and Dublin and speaking to them today there are allegedly murmurings of reunification, something I never thought would happen in my lifetime. Now because of Brexit it is becoming a possibility. Thanks to the Conservatives, the 'precious Union' they espouse is at a real risk of falling apart. And no amount of lies could deflect the possible fallout from that. So enjoy this moment, I would not begrudge any of you doing so for a single second. But don't assume for a single second that it is a case of job done. It has barely started.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 11:55:44 GMT
Well I'm very happy with the result. A good day for Britain. Corbyn and his antisemitism, plus the flight of capital that would have resulted from his spending plans would have been terrible for the country. Did we really want that? A good day for Britain? Have you not been paying attention for the last 9 years? RIP 'Great' Britain.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 12:51:23 GMT
|
|
|
Post by ollychops on Dec 13, 2019 12:54:53 GMT
Well I'm very happy with the result. A good day for Britain. Corbyn and his antisemitism, plus the flight of capital that would have resulted from his spending plans would have been terrible for the country. Did we really want that? You criticise Corbyn for his antisemitism, yet back Johnson who has been racist towards Muslims and people of colour, made homophobic comments about gay men, is sexist, criticised single mothers, and looking into it has apparently made antisemitic comments himself. Glad that you’re happy we’ve got Trump Jr in charge for the next five years. All I hope is that he doesn’t touch the NHS, but of course, that’s probably going to be one of the first casualties, thanks to Johnson and Trump. Now that Corbyn’s stepped down, all I can hope is that Labour pick a better, more likeable leader for their party ready for the next election.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 12:56:45 GMT
JOB DONE ! So enjoy this moment, I would not begrudge any of you doing so for a single second. But don't assume for a single second that it is a case of job done. It has barely started. That highly dangerous, scruffy looking old hobo Corbyn is out, and for me, that's job done. Us apparently "vile" individuals voted in our millions yesterday to get shot of him and quite rightly.
|
|
|
Post by ollychops on Dec 13, 2019 12:58:28 GMT
Also I’d like to point out, that people can be happy their party won, but there’s a difference between celebrating and rubbing it people’s faces and lording it over everyone else...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 12:58:45 GMT
all I can hope is that Labour pick a better, more likeable leader for their party ready for the next election. Diane Abbott anyone?
|
|
|
Post by Digi on Dec 13, 2019 13:17:59 GMT
The election absolutely will have an impact on Brexit, but I'd just like to gently remind everyone that the thread's subject is Brexit, and not election results. I don't want to stifle conversation, but given that post-election emotions are high/volatile, I'll suggest that it may be best for everyone here to refocus on the thread's subject and steer clear of gloating or name-calling. For such a contentious topic, this thread has been remarkably civil for a long time, and it would be nice if we could keep it that way.
|
|
lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,812
|
Post by lidar2 on Dec 13, 2019 13:38:08 GMT
Well I'm very happy with the result. A good day for Britain. Corbyn and his antisemitism, plus the flight of capital that would have resulted from his spending plans would have been terrible for the country. Did we really want that? You criticise Corbyn for his antisemitism, yet back Johnson who has been racist towards Muslims and people of colour, made homophobic comments about gay men, is sexist, criticised single mothers, and looking into it has apparently made antisemitic comments himself. Glad that you’re happy we’ve got Trump Jr in charge for the next five years. All I hope is that he doesn’t touch the NHS, but of course, that’s probably going to be one of the first casualties, thanks to Johnson and Trump. Now that Corbyn’s stepped down, all I can hope is that Labour pick a better, more likeable leader for their party ready for the next election. The problem with Corbyn was not just anti-Semitism, it was past support for terrorists, concerns about national security, a hard left programme of nationalisation that would have bankrupted the country.
I think Johnston's support is very wide - he got 45% of the vote - but also very shallow. As I said above I think it was more a case of Corbyn losing the election rather than Boris winning. If Labour had had a leader and a manifesto that floating voters felt was "safe" to vote for then we could have had a very different result. Instead the alternative to Boris was Jeremy so a lot of people ended up holding their noses and voting for Boris in spite of all his many flaws as a leader.
The most interesting thing that will happen in British politics in the next few months is the Labour leadership election (sadly brexit by 31 January is now a fait accompli). Unfortunately, it seems as if the Cobynites have such a hold on the Labour party and seem intent on timing the leadership election to give one of their own the best chance of winning, that Labour will probably have to lose another election before the party comes to its senses and returns to the Blairite centre ground to have a chance of winning power. So it will likely be the leader after next who is our next Labour PM
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 13:59:57 GMT
You criticise Corbyn for his antisemitism, yet back Johnson who has been racist towards Muslims and people of colour, made homophobic comments about gay men, is sexist, criticised single mothers, and looking into it has apparently made antisemitic comments himself. Glad that you’re happy we’ve got Trump Jr in charge for the next five years. All I hope is that he doesn’t touch the NHS, but of course, that’s probably going to be one of the first casualties, thanks to Johnson and Trump. Now that Corbyn’s stepped down, all I can hope is that Labour pick a better, more likeable leader for their party ready for the next election. The problem with Corbyn was not just anti-Semitism, it was past support for terrorists, concerns about national security, a hard left programme of nationalisation that would have bankrupted the country.
I think Johnston's support is very wide - he got 45% of the vote - but also very shallow. As I said above I think it was more a case of Corbyn losing the election rather than Boris winning. If Labour had had a leader and a manifesto that floating voters felt was "safe" to vote for then we could have had a very different result. Instead the alternative to Boris was Jeremy so a lot of people ended up holding their noses and voting for Boris in spite of all his many flaws as a leader.
The most interesting thing that will happen in British politics in the next few months is the Labour leadership election (sadly brexit by 31 January is now a fait accompli). Unfortunately, it seems as if the Cobynites have such a hold on the Labour party and seem intent on timing the leadership election to give one of their own the best chance of winning, that Labour will probably have to lose another election before the party comes to its senses and returns to the Blairite centre ground to have a chance of winning power. So it will likely be the leader after next who is our next Labour PM
Quite reasonable points made there, Iidar2. With a stronger, moral opponent, Johnson could have been hammered. His ducking and diving out of scrutiny has been cynical of late, but worked all the same with those who did not want to hear about it. One does not have to be partisan nor neutral to admit this. He was a far better choice than his opponent, but the bar was set quite low.
|
|
|
Post by number13 on Dec 13, 2019 14:00:28 GMT
Although it is a good night for the Tories, it seems to be built on pretty shallow foundations. By the next election the 2 main factors in the Tory victory - brexit and Corbyn - will be old news and I don't really see the Tories keeping all their new Northern/Midlands voters at the next election without those 2 factors. I agree, there was a lot of 'vote lending' last night. (All our votes are only 'lent' of course although parties and voters often forget that. ) But the scale of the shift was such that, barring disaster, it will be very difficult to overturn in a single election. And Labour's problem is much much bigger than 'just' the current apocalypse in their northern/midland/north wales 'heartlands'. Almost overlooked last night in amongst all the spectacular wins was what happened in the southern half of Britain outside London, places like Swindon and Nuneaton and North Warwickshire. They were Conservative, they stayed Conservative. BUT the swings away from Labour were very large in what were once marginals and which Labour held under Blair. Swindon North 7% swing, majority >16000
Swindon South 4% swing, majority >6000 Nuneaton 9% swing, majority >13000
Warwickshire North 10.5% swing, majority almost 18000. 18000 Conservative majority in a seat that voted for Blair and which Cameron barely won in 2010. Not long ago it was the most marginal seat in England, incredible as that may seem.
I can imagine that Labour might deprive the Tories of a majority in two elections time, or even one if Brexit really does go badly wrong and the economy crashes (I think the country will do OK, even though Brexit wasn't my choice). But they are so very far from power as a majority government and I really don't think that England would welcome the idea of a Labour+SNP deal - the prospect of that helped to defeat Labour in 2015. I'm usually a Conservative voter (I've been an 'Orange Book' Lib Dem sometimes) but my family has roots in Wales and places in the North that swung last night; they were miners, agricultural workers, public sector workers, craftsmen, some were trades-unionists. I don't underestimate what Labour has done in the past to help ordinary people and (unlike some of the bitter, Tory-hating-by-reflex lefties) while I might often disagree with Socialism and the traditional 'other side', I respect that tradition as it was once represented by Wilson, Callaghan, Smith etc. And Blair's 'New Labour' did OK except 'the third way' missed their chance imo and the spending eventually ran out of control, as usual!
But when it comes to the Marxist, anti-Semitic, anti-American hangers-on of the hard left, I wish them political extinction and no defeat can be too massive if it helps get rid of them once and for all. I thought this had happened in the 80s, but like all those old Who monsters, they came back for more! I hope this is the very last time, and that Labour will make themselves an electable centre-Left party again; Britain needs viable alternative governments of both hues. Last night was an odd one for me. When Cameron won with the Coalition in 2010, and then in 2015, I felt excited and very happy. (I am at heart a 'Cameroon' sort of social-liberal Conservative.) Last night I felt alternately astonished at the seemingly impossible results, thrilled as one might be on a rollercoaster, and (this is hard to explain exactly) sort of grimly triumphant. I didn't vote for Brexit or for Boris; I voted Conservative to stop Corbynism and thank goodness, for whatever reason they did it, enough 'traditional Labour' people voted Conservative too.
Now it's up to Boris to deliver Brexit and (much more important for me) to be the 'One Nation Conservative' he talked about last night. And it's up to the Labour party to make themselves electable again, and (without irony) I wish them every success. Just not too soon please.
EDIT: Saw digi's post and if this is off-topic, sorry. But Brexit and the election are all rolled into one and I don't see another suitable thread. And I tried hard not to gloat, really I did. ('We're up to our ears in gloaters! 'Can I come in for a gloat?' they say. 'No, you heartless gloaters!'' - Nothing like a spot of Blackadder to lighten the mood )
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 14:26:34 GMT
The election absolutely will have an impact on Brexit, but I'd just like to gently remind everyone that the thread's subject is Brexit, and not election results. I don't want to stifle conversation, but given that post-election emotions are high/volatile, I'll suggest that it may be best for everyone here to refocus on the thread's subject and steer clear of gloating or name-calling. For such a contentious topic, this thread has been remarkably civil for a long time, and it would be nice if we could keep it that way. Shall we start another thread for politics then? I fear there will be too much crossover. Anyway. I best stay away from these sort of topics given the fact this country is now under the boot of right wing bully boys.
|
|
|
Post by number13 on Dec 13, 2019 14:37:35 GMT
Re Brexit - I think that last night's big win will give Boris the freedom to ignore the right of the party and do some unexpectedly centrist things on Brexit and other matters. And take his time getting the right trade deal with the EU. If he wants to extend negotiations beyond 2020, who's to stop him now?
Andrew Marr's analysis on the BBC was excellent, I thought. Heaven only knows what time in the morning that was, sorry I can't point you to the moment on the BBC replay but I was up until 7 am and it's all a bit hazy today!
(No, not with alcohol. I do blame the Tories' success for the fact that I cracked open some of our Christmas chocolates about 3am last night and now I have to explain where they went... 'The dog ate them.' We don't have a dog.' 'Boris had a dog with him on the TV, maybe it was that one...' )
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 15:48:15 GMT
Shall we start another thread for politics then? I fear there will be too much crossover. Anyway. I best stay away from these sort of topics given the fact this country is now under the boot of right wing bully boys. You've made it clear how you feel several times now, so it's probably for the best for all concerned that you do as you say.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 15:51:18 GMT
Re Brexit - I think that last night's big win will give Boris the freedom to ignore the right of the party and do some unexpectedly centrist things on Brexit and other matters. And take his time getting the right trade deal with the EU. If he wants to extend negotiations beyond 2020, who's to stop him now?
I've heard this school of thought elsewhere too. He doesn't have to listen to Nigel Farage anymore, and with his new freedom he might *just* go for a form of Brexit that isn't as harmful as many dread. It's good to look on the optimistic side, I think.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 16:52:23 GMT
Shall we start another thread for politics then? I fear there will be too much crossover. Anyway. I best stay away from these sort of topics given the fact this country is now under the boot of right wing bully boys. You've made it clear how you feel several times now, so it's probably for the best for all concerned that you do as you say. Are you a mod? No. So don't tell me what to do! 😠 Oh & people are allowed to express their opinion on this thread & any others as many times as they want. I have not seen you pull up anyone else about this?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 16:55:54 GMT
Re Brexit - I think that last night's big win will give Boris the freedom to ignore the right of the party and do some unexpectedly centrist things on Brexit and other matters. And take his time getting the right trade deal with the EU. If he wants to extend negotiations beyond 2020, who's to stop him now?
I've heard this school of thought elsewhere too. He doesn't have to listen to Nigel Farage anymore, and with his new freedom he might *just* go for a form of Brexit that isn't as harmful as many dread. It's good to look on the optimistic side, I think. Agreed - as The Spectator magazine has frequently pointed out, his journalistic record with them demonstrates that he is what they term a 'Classical Liberal' in outlook and not right wing Tory. For all the accusations of Islamophobia, he has defended the right of individuals to their religious beliefs, but also the freedom to raise the incongruity of hiding ones face in an open, liberal society. Antisemitism is a Race issue, as it lies separate from Religious practice, whereas imposition of Blasphemy laws to shut down criticism of extreme religious belief in a secular society is another wider concern. Remember Charlie Hebdo magazine for an illustration of where it can lead to. Respect others beliefs absolutely, but reserve the right to criticise too if it impinges or legislates against ones own secular beliefs.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 17:17:13 GMT
You've made it clear how you feel several times now, so it's probably for the best for all concerned that you do as you say. Are you a mod? No. So don't tell me what to do! 😠 Oh & people are allowed to express their opinion on this thread & any others as many times as they want. I have not seen you pull up anyone else about this? Well, that didn't last long
I was simply agreeing with you, that it's probably best you do as you say and keep out of threads like this.
Anyway, not to worry. I won't be interacting with you again.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 17:34:21 GMT
Re Brexit - I think that last night's big win will give Boris the freedom to ignore the right of the party and do some unexpectedly centrist things on Brexit and other matters. And take his time getting the right trade deal with the EU. If he wants to extend negotiations beyond 2020, who's to stop him now?
I've heard this school of thought elsewhere too. He doesn't have to listen to Nigel Farage anymore, and with his new freedom he might *just* go for a form of Brexit that isn't as harmful as many dread. It's good to look on the optimistic side, I think. Johnson is an opportunist but not the buffoon he pretends to be for publicity. I think that'll be his aim in the next few years, he keeps the right by delivering some form of Brexit and he keeps much of the middle by reverting to the sort of Conservatism he showed as London Mayor which was assuredly not the Dominic Cummings kind. He can't keep power past the next election playing to the same tune so I think a move, even slightly, to the centre is inevitable. How much I think depends on who Labour choose as leader. A capable politician like a Keir Starmer leading on the opposition benches and I think we'd see a much more resilient Labour. Another Momentum-ite chosen one with no appeal to the country at large and they're going to be on the opposing benches longer than they were in the Thatcher/Major years. While I share much pity with progressives in England who have woken up to a new right paradigm, I do take consolation that in Scotland at least it was a fantastic night, with the SNP massively increasing their numbers to make it another landslide a la 2015. The preparations begin in earnest now for our Holyrood elections in 18 months. With a Tory PM who can't win votes here and no Ruth Davison any more to be the acceptable face of Scottish Conservatism, it could be another massive year for pro-Indy parties with pro-EU and Indy parties here on the rise again, completely against the trend in England and Wales.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 17:57:02 GMT
I've heard this school of thought elsewhere too. He doesn't have to listen to Nigel Farage anymore, and with his new freedom he might *just* go for a form of Brexit that isn't as harmful as many dread. It's good to look on the optimistic side, I think. Johnson is an opportunist but not the buffoon he pretends to be for publicity. I think that'll be his aim in the next few years, he keeps the right by delivering some form of Brexit and he keeps much of the middle by reverting to the sort of Conservatism he showed as London Mayor which was assuredly not the Dominic Cummings kind. He can't keep power past the next election playing to the same tune so I think a move, even slightly, to the centre is inevitable. How much I think depends on who Labour choose as leader. A capable politician like a Keir Starmer leading on the opposition benches and I think we'd see a much more resilient Labour. Another Momentum-ite chosen one with no appeal to the country at large and they're going to be on the opposing benches longer than they were in the Thatcher/Major years. While I share much pity with progressives in England who have woken up to a new right paradigm, I do take consolation that in Scotland at least it was a fantastic night, with the SNP massively increasing their numbers to make it another landslide a la 2015. The preparations begin in earnest now for our Holyrood elections in 18 months. With a Tory PM who can't win votes here and no Ruth Davison any more to be the acceptable face of Scottish Conservatism, it could be another massive year for pro-Indy parties with pro-EU and Indy parties here on the rise again, completely against the trend in England and Wales. I agree it will be interesting to see how the political 'stage' (that seems to be a more fitting term than ever at the moment) changes if Labour are led by someone more credible than Jeremy Corbyn. A lot of people I know who support Labour have said to me, "I know people don't like Corbyn but ignore him - it's the policies that are important." This is true of course, but for even them to admit he is holding them back speaks volumes.
|
|