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Post by nucleusofswarm on Oct 31, 2017 18:59:58 GMT
Last few years have seen a boom in fan theories and speculations about what way this or that movie or series finale could go. Last Jedi, GOT, Marvel, need I say more?
And yet, I can't help but wonder, given how polarizing discussions can be, if some fans let personal hopes mess with their ability to see if a story does or doesn't work on its own merits. Do you think fans let their own pet wishes stop them from enjoying something that does actually work?
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 6, 2021 2:03:33 GMT
I think this discussion comes back into play again when, recently, the director of Wandavision remarked that some fans would be disappointed as it would not match a number of theories and had a specific goal.
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Post by theillusiveman on Mar 6, 2021 2:18:04 GMT
No bad writing wrecks Storytelling
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 6, 2021 11:27:53 GMT
No bad writing wrecks Storytelling I mean obviously, but I'd argue that preconceptions also play a part in how we engage with narrative. It's not dissimilar to when many classics that were bashed on release for not being 'A', only to find massive critical resurgence later when people saw they were 'B' - Speed Racer being one of the big recent ones, where expectation was another Matrix and what it was was the most one-to-one replication of anime seen on screen, warts and all.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2021 11:46:58 GMT
Only when fans let their theories get in the way of the story, I think. If I wanted Davros to suddenly mend his ways, and had worked out a theory as to why he should do so - and then he doesn't, the the only person my theory has wrecked the story for, is me! I think, reading comments on Facebook and the like (and often wishing I hadn't!), there are fans who feel their ideas are more important than what's actually going on in the series. That's dangerous territory for the ego, and probably the time to stop watching.
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Post by theillusiveman on Mar 6, 2021 12:00:30 GMT
No bad writing wrecks Storytelling I mean obviously, but I'd argue that preconceptions also play a part in how we engage with narrative. It's not dissimilar to when many classics that were bashed on release for not being 'A', only to find massive critical resurgence later when people saw they were 'B' - Speed Racer being one of the big recent ones, where expectation was another Matrix and what it was was the most one-to-one replication of anime seen on screen, warts and all. I Don't think that's the case at all a lot of the examples you mentioned earlier (Last Jedi, Game of Thrones) stem from not preconceptions but abysmal writing, Character Inconsistency and plot holes The Last Jedi being a prime example
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2021 12:25:26 GMT
I agree with the premise yet I think it's a result of pop-culture eating itself in general. New characters have to "be" someone else. Rey from Star Wars being a nobody was perfect - the force finds you, it's not in your blood - lovely idea. But no - people spat the collective dummy and a populist like JJ Abrams retcons it to make it "actually, you need to be the grandaughter of a Sith Lord to be this powerful...sorry". Clunky doesn't begin to cover it. We saw it recently with WandaVision where "Who is she gonna call??" became such a big deal only for it to be a generic Army friend. Fans were mighty peeved - but it's all the plot needed. What would a Rhodey cameo add there besides a cheap pop and a few hundred grand to the budget? Nothing. Though why the creatives felt the need to tease cameos that weren't happening is another matter.
We see it in Who. How many people have been hidden incarnations of The Master, Susan, The Rani or whomever by now? Never ends. And when people build up that so-and-so is secretly some big character then don't get the release of that tension, it can let them down. Instead of being happy we get new, original characters to expand the universe rather than keep it small.
I wouldn't add Game Of Thrones to this list as I think everything there would have worked if Benioff and Weiss didn't insist they could wrap everything up in two short seasons when they needed 4 at least to not only match the pacing of the entire show but to sew seeds, set up and pay off - with false steps along the way. No show ever will marathon as badly as GoT, taking forever to get anywhere for 6 seasons then everything happening instantly during it's last two runs. Feels like a highlights reel and totally killed the love that show had worldwide. Went from a phenomenon to a bad taste leftover.
So, yes, people set themselves up for a fall and confuse reveals with good storytelling. Surprises themselves aren't "good" but so much of modern storytelling, especially in geek culture, is built on the notion of cheap pops. The more audiences are conditioned to expect that...the more they'll be peeved not to get it.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 6, 2021 12:33:23 GMT
I agree with the premise yet I think it's a result of pop-culture eating itself in general. New characters have to "be" someone else. Rey from Star Wars being a nobody was perfect - the force finds you, it's not in your blood - lovely idea. But no - people spat the collective dummy and a populist like JJ Abrams retcons it to make it "actually, you need to be the grandaughter of a Sith Lord to be this powerful...sorry". Clunky doesn't begin to cover it. We saw it recently with WandaVision where "Who is she gonna call??" became such a big deal only for it to be a generic Army friend. Fans were mighty peeved - but it's all the plot needed. What would a Rhodey cameo add there besides a cheap pop and a few hundred grand to the budget? Nothing. Though why the creatives felt the need to tease cameos that weren't happening is another matter. We see it in Who. How many people have been hidden incarnations of The Master, Susan, The Rani or whomever by now? Never ends. And when people build up that so-and-so is secretly some big character then don't get the release of that tension, it can let them down. Instead of being happy we get new, original characters to expand the universe rather than keep it small. I wouldn't add Game Of Thrones to this list as I think everything there would have worked if Benioff and Weiss didn't insist they could wrap everything up in two short seasons when they needed 4 at least to not only match the pacing of the entire show but to sew seeds, set up and pay off - with false steps along the way. No show ever will marathon as badly as GoT, taking forever to get anywhere for 6 seasons then everything happening instantly during it's last two runs. Feels like a highlights reel and totally killed the love that show had worldwide. Went from a phenomenon to a bad taste leftover. So, yes, people set themselves up for a fall and confuse reveals with good storytelling. Surprises themselves aren't "good" but so much of modern storytelling, especially in geek culture, is built on the notion of cheap pops. The more audiences are conditioned to expect that...the more they'll be peeved not to get it. I think this is a great response, though I suppose I should say, for clarity, that GOT is not here to be defended - it was just an easy reference for the topic since it very much was a hotbed of theory discussions.
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Post by timegirl on Mar 6, 2021 22:58:32 GMT
I do think that this is often the case, two major recent examples I can call to mind that are similar to each other are the finale of WandaVision and Hell Bent. In both cases many fans had all sorts of elaborate lore heavy theories about where they wanted the finales to go and then faced disappointment when the finale focused more on interpersonal relationships, love, and grief. In my opinion, the direction both of these finales took are far more emotionally satisfying as is than if they focused on lore based reveals that would have lacked satisfying character beats. I think many fans missed the emotional impact in these episodes because they are too focused on the fact that they didn’t get their big deep lore based reveals, and decided that the episodes were crap simply because they didn’t do exactly what they wanted rather than appreciating them for what they are.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Mar 6, 2021 23:01:49 GMT
The difference is, the WandaVision finale was actually good whereas Hell Bent was a shipwreck that went into lore nobody asked to be explored.
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Post by timegirl on Mar 6, 2021 23:16:04 GMT
The difference is, the WandaVision finale was actually good whereas Hell Bent was a shipwreck that went into lore nobody asked to be explored. I respectfully disagree about Hell Bent, it’s not perfect but I think it has a lot of merit in regards to exploring 12 and Clara’s relationship. The lore aspect is more of a red herring.
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Post by theillusiveman on Mar 7, 2021 2:12:57 GMT
The difference is, the WandaVision finale was actually good whereas Hell Bent was a shipwreck that went into lore nobody asked to be explored. Wandavision’s finale wasn’t good it had heaps of flaws (Hayward going from reasonable person to a designated Villian because of Disney wanting a bad guy, the hex issue with Agatha and making Evan peters character a dick joke In a twist that echoes the mandarin in iron man 3) but it was No where near as awful as The Hell Bent and Timeless Children finales they were awful
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Post by timegirl on Mar 7, 2021 2:26:36 GMT
The difference is, the WandaVision finale was actually good whereas Hell Bent was a shipwreck that went into lore nobody asked to be explored. Wandavision’s finale wasn’t good it had heaps of flaws (Hayward going from reasonable person to a designated Villian because of Disney wanting a bad guy, the hex issue with Agatha and making Evan peters character a dick joke In a twist that echoes the mandarin in iron man 3) but it was No where near as awful as The Hell Bent and Timeless Children finales they were awful I see your point but I still think both WandaVision’s finale as well as Hell Bent and Timeless Children have merit as character pieces even if they aren’t perfect.
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Post by ollychops on Mar 20, 2021 21:48:47 GMT
Only just saw this thread... I think yes and no. Fan theories are fine when they're just a bit of fun and you don't put too much stock in them, but I found with WandaVision people were getting way too carried away with them (some expecting Reed Richards to show up...) and were convinced that they were going to happen which led to disappointment. It's fine to be disappointed if your fan theory doesn't happen but there were some OTT reactions after the WandaVision finale saying that they'd been misled by the cast/crew and almost a sense of entitlement that they were owed something which is when fandom turns a little nasty. I do think that in part, journalism was to blame for this too, since a lot of clickbait articles came out which twisted the cast's words, which didn't help matters. Fan theories are fun but just as long as they stay a bit of fun and fans don't lash out when it doesn't pan out as they thought. {Spoiler} I think Pietro was meant to be more of a tongue-in-cheek wink to the FOX X-Men universe, however, with Doctor Strange 2 (and apparently Spiderman 3) suggesting multiverse shenanigans, fans put two and two together and came up with five unfortunately. So something that started out as a bit of a joke ended up being blown out of proportion.
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Mar 21, 2021 0:25:42 GMT
Only just saw this thread... I think yes and no. Fan theories are fine when they're just a bit of fun and you don't put too much stock in them, but I found with WandaVision people were getting way too carried away with them (some expecting Reed Richards to show up...) and were convinced that they were going to happen which led to disappointment. It's fine to be disappointed if your fan theory doesn't happen but there were some OTT reactions after the WandaVision finale saying that they'd been misled by the cast/crew and almost a sense of entitlement that they were owed something which is when fandom turns a little nasty. I do think that in part, journalism was to blame for this too, since a lot of clickbait articles came out which twisted the cast's words, which didn't help matters. Fan theories are fun but just as long as they stay a bit of fun and fans don't lash out when it doesn't pan out as they thought. {Spoiler} I think Pietro was meant to be more of a tongue-in-cheek wink to the FOX X-Men universe, however, with Doctor Strange 2 (and apparently Spiderman 3) suggesting multiverse shenanigans, fans put two and two together and came up with five unfortunately. So something that started out as a bit of a joke ended up being blown out of proportion. Yes.. I am seeing this^ with the "Falcon & Winter Soldier" tv show with random mass comments online that pop up on my FB feed. People expect 100% immediate action and all action from the get go. Already in the 1st episode we learned some character developement stuff. 1st episode was 47 mins, they have 6 episodes- they have a plan.. And especially with the very last scene of ep 1.. let it play out how it's going to play out..
Fans are their own worst enemies sometimes
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