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Post by elgranto on Nov 1, 2015 6:13:51 GMT
Now that the circumstances behind the Sixth Doctor's regeneration have been addressed in The Sixth Doctor - The Last Adventure, another "gap" in televised Who that I feel is high time for Big Finish to resolve is the nature of Ace's departure from the Seventh Doctor, which for the most part has remained a lingering question amongst fans since the release of the TV Movie back in '96.
We know from the New Adventures novels that Ace parts ways with the Doctor and Bernice Summerfield at the end of Set Piece to become "Time's Vigilante," patrolling time and space on a motorbike in a similar manner to the Doctor in his TARDIS. But as is common with stories branching off into multiple different media, this account is seemingly in conflict with Big Finish' own take on the character who, as first introduced in the lost Season 27 story arc and developed upon in the UNIT: Dominion and New Adventures of Bernice Summerfield box sets as well as in Gallifrey - Intervention Earth, has enrolled in the Time Lord Academy on Gallifrey to become an apprentice Time Lord. Hardly a vigilante it would seem.
And in light of Big Finish's recent adaptations of the New Adventures line of novels, it will be interesting to see whether Big Finish will address Ace's departure (if at all) in way that not only supports the continuity established on audio but the continuity of the novels they choose to adapt as well.
I for one feel that Ace is long overdue a proper farewell and Big Finish, like with the Sixth Doctor, could do no wrong in having a special release dedicated to that event. Her character arc deserves to be officially resolved at some point. How did she end up on Gallifrey? Will she be involved in the Time War? And if so, what will be her fate? So many questions.
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Post by omega on Nov 1, 2015 6:46:04 GMT
I'm curious to know what backstory RTD intended for Ace for her Sarah Jane Adventures appearance. Would that have given her a different departure from any of the myriad fates we've seen her have across the novels and comics? Under what circumstances did she and the Doctor finally part?
One thing I've observed with Ace's character is that she always sees herself traveling with the Seventh Doctor. Even when his manipulations get her yelling at him, she'll still eventually forgive, or at least tolerate him. Because she's never had another life that she wants to go back to. Given a choice between an ordinary life and life on the TARDIS, Ace'll choose TARDIS in a heartbeat. Much like Donna, I very much feel it'll take a huge event beyond her influence to get Ace to part from the Doctor for good, and that event will not let them part by either of their volitions.
In the New Adventures it took the Doctor sabotaging her romantic relationship for her to leave him, and rejoined him later in part to get back at him. She did finally choose to leave by her own volition, but by that point she'd had character development to get over her issues. Ace was killed off in the DWM comics (which had deliberately splintered off from the NA continuity). It's worth noting that when Big Finish adapted Thin Ice, they changed the ending where Ace went off to Time Lord academy, because they felt it wasn't in-character for her to do that.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2015 7:56:26 GMT
It feels like BF are definitely heading to a conclusion with introducing the Gallifrey connection.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Nov 1, 2015 8:00:06 GMT
Of course, short of death, Ace's various departures can all tie together.
Time's Vigilsnte is inducted into the academy, and eventually survives the Time War and goes to Earth to run " A Charitable Earrh".
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Post by elkawho on Nov 1, 2015 13:03:38 GMT
Something didn't sit right with me when Sarah Jane said that line about Dorothy McShane. I expect that the whole "Charitable Earth" charity is more than what it seems. I can't see Ace, no matter how old, being happy sitting behind a desk for some charity. Like JB, I too wish we could have had RTD's intended Ace story.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Nov 1, 2015 14:07:31 GMT
Something didn't sit right with me when Sarah Jane said that line about Dorothy McShane. I expect that the whole "Charitable Earth" charity is more than what it seems. I can't see Ace, no matter how old, being happy sitting behind a desk for some charity. Like JB, I too wish we could have had RTD's intended Ace story. I thoroughly agree with you re it not sounding right. And despite BF adapting NAs I hope they only take the best into "real" continuity because the Ace of the NAs spent a long time being a hateful person, and that's not the Ace of TV or BF. Just goes to show that despite being the only Who out there for years in the wilderness, and having some great stories, they were so OFF on Who so many times. |
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Nov 1, 2015 16:14:56 GMT
We do need an Ace leaving the Doctor to join the Academy story. We could ignore the Time's Vigilante bit and combine that with the Earth core she joined that was mentioned in the likes of Dark Flame.
I always felt that A Charitable Earth was part of her CIA cover on Earth and that when she was left there during the Time War, she used her resources for other things. Maybe helping UNIT in times of need
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Nov 1, 2015 16:26:09 GMT
We do need an Ace leaving the Doctor to join the Academy story. We could ignore the Time's Vigilante bit and combine that with the Earth core she joined that was mentioned in the likes of Dark Flame. I always felt that A Charitable Earth was part of her CIA cover on Earth and that when she was left there during the Time War, she used her resources for other things. Maybe helping UNIT in times of need This ^^^ seems perfectly reasonable. Leave out the vigilante nonsense, Ace was hotheaded but never nasty. And ACE was surely a CIA cover. An aside: A thing about the Time War that always bothered me (doesn't matter now since Gallifrey was saved) was why were all the Timelords destroyed? The Doctor survived, the Master fled and became a boy on the Silver Devastation, but surely not EVERY Timelord/Gallifreyan actually lived on Gallifrey and only on Gallifrey? That makes no sense at all. There must have been colony worlds. Sure, insular and so on, but not hermits. I mention this because assuming Ace survived the Time War because she was human doesn't make any sense, she just had to not be on Gallifrey when the Moment was used/Gallifrey was hidden. |
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Post by seeley on Nov 1, 2015 17:32:35 GMT
I thoroughly agree with you re it not sounding right. And despite BF adapting NAs I hope they only take the best into "real" continuity because the Ace of the NAs spent a long time being a hateful person, and that's not the Ace of TV or BF. Just goes to show that despite being the only Who out there for years in the wilderness, and having some great stories, they were so OFF on Who so many times. Tell me, is her portrayal in the Alternate History Cycle an aberration? I read Blood Heat, the Left-Handed Hummingbird, and Conundrum recently, and while she was hardly what I'd describe as "cuddly," I didn't find her hateful, either. She was recognizably Ace, albeit scarred. Don't get me wrong, she seemed to have gone retrograde, in comparison to Nightshade and Love and War, but there was a good reason for it. Of course, it's quite possible that other writers failed to maintain the same level of verisimilitude, and simply made her into a caricature. |
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Nov 1, 2015 17:51:26 GMT
I thoroughly agree with you re it not sounding right. And despite BF adapting NAs I hope they only take the best into "real" continuity because the Ace of the NAs spent a long time being a hateful person, and that's not the Ace of TV or BF. Just goes to show that despite being the only Who out there for years in the wilderness, and having some great stories, they were so OFF on Who so many times. Tell me, is her portrayal in the Alternate History Cycle an aberration? I read Blood Heat, the Left-Handed Hummingbird, and Conundrum recently, and while she was hardly what I'd describe as "cuddly," I didn't find her hateful, either. She was recognizably Ace, albeit scarred. Don't get me wrong, she seemed to have gone retrograde, in comparison to Nightshade and Love and War, but there was a good reason for it. Of course, it's quite possible that other writers failed to maintain the same level of verisimilitude, and simply made her into a caricature. Pretty much hit the nail on the head there. Caricature is the best word. The scarring is all there is, you don't see any depth behind it. And of course consistency was out the window. The arc can be saved if BF adapt the "right" novels (and by adapt I also mean adapt INTO BF's own timeline, cutting the cloth to fit where needed rather than just slavishly repeating the book for audio) but (I'll have to scan through them again for which ones but I have no intention of reading them!) the inconsistent violent parody of Ace that occurs in some of the novels needs to be excised. |
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Post by mbt66 on Nov 1, 2015 20:49:48 GMT
We do need an Ace leaving the Doctor to join the Academy story. We could ignore the Time's Vigilante bit and combine that with the Earth core she joined that was mentioned in the likes of Dark Flame. I always felt that A Charitable Earth was part of her CIA cover on Earth and that when she was left there during the Time War, she used her resources for other things. Maybe helping UNIT in times of need This ^^^ seems perfectly reasonable. Leave out the vigilante nonsense, Ace was hotheaded but never nasty. And ACE was surely a CIA cover. An aside: A thing about the Time War that always bothered me (doesn't matter now since Gallifrey was saved) was why were all the Timelords destroyed? The Doctor survived, the Master fled and became a boy on the Silver Devastation, but surely not EVERY Timelord/Gallifreyan actually lived on Gallifrey and only on Gallifrey? That makes no sense at all. There must have been colony worlds. Sure, insular and so on, but not hermits. I mention this because assuming Ace survived the Time War because she was human doesn't make any sense, she just had to not be on Gallifrey when the Moment was used/Gallifrey was hidden. Perhaps during the Time War the Daleks created a virus that only attacked Timelord DNA? The only place the Timelords could escape from that virus was on Gallifrey where they were protected...then when Gallifrey was "destroyed" that in effect destroyed all of them. As the Daleks were not only trying to destroy the Timelords but also to erase them from time. Once they achieved their goal it was as if the Timelords had never existed and therefore the virus made to destroy them could no longer exist, which was how the Doctor was able to survive. As for Ace's departure story - yes please. I would very much like to find out how and why she left the Doctor and went to the Academy. |
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Post by icecreamdf on Nov 1, 2015 21:27:40 GMT
Time Lord society is so insular that they probably didn't have any colonies or anything. All the renegades and CIA agents who would normally be off the planet would either have been killed earlier in the war, lured outside of the universe to have their TARDIS eaten by the House, or returned to Gallifrey to try to fight off the Daleks.
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Post by seeley on Nov 1, 2015 21:39:59 GMT
Perhaps, given the amount of temporal-meddling inherent in a time war, the only thing keeping the Timelords from fading into non-existence was technology housed on Gallifrey. Once Gallifrey was gone, the universe noticed that all the Timelords abroad were paradoxes (their primordial ancestors having being exterminated a thousand times over,) and ceased to sustain them.
Alternately, perhaps the lack of Time Lords in the New Series is only a facet of the post-Day of the Doctor timeline. Just before Gallifrey popped off to another plane of reality, all the Timelords who weren't the Doctor (who had to stay in the main universe were he to save his planet,) were recalled.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Nov 1, 2015 21:40:12 GMT
Time Lord society is so insular that they probably didn't have any colonies or anything. All the renegades and CIA agents who would normally be off the planet would either have been killed earlier in the war, lured outside of the universe to have their TARDIS eaten by the House, or returned to Gallifrey to try to fight off the Daleks. What's Karn then? It's in the same system of Kasterborus, is intimately connected with Gallifrey historically, is it a colony? Or a remnant? I'm not taking a devil's advocate point but there's a lot we don't know and assuming total insularity seems too handy. |
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Post by constonks on Nov 1, 2015 21:43:49 GMT
Honestly I don't think she needs one. She has such a complicated timeline as it is; it's best to leave it alone at this point.
She even addresses this herself in Intervention Earth. She has no idea how the Doc brought her to Gallifrey, just that he probably did. And that time is in such flux that she's lost in the flow of it all.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2015 21:44:52 GMT
Time Lord society is so insular that they probably didn't have any colonies or anything. All the renegades and CIA agents who would normally be off the planet would either have been killed earlier in the war, lured outside of the universe to have their TARDIS eaten by the House, or returned to Gallifrey to try to fight off the Daleks. What's Karn then? It's in the same system of Kasterborus, is intimately connected with Gallifrey historically, is it a colony? Or a remnant? I'm not taking a devil's advocate point but there's a lot we don't know and assuming total insularity seems too handy. Nothing in the show suggests Gallifrey has colonies, and much that suggests the opposite. Time Lords were not at all welcome on Karn, although the Sisterhood had a n arrangement to supply them with Elixir of Life. |
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Post by seeley on Nov 1, 2015 21:54:13 GMT
Time Lord society is so insular that they probably didn't have any colonies or anything. All the renegades and CIA agents who would normally be off the planet would either have been killed earlier in the war, lured outside of the universe to have their TARDIS eaten by the House, or returned to Gallifrey to try to fight off the Daleks. What's Karn then? It's in the same system of Kasterborus, is intimately connected with Gallifrey historically, is it a colony? Or a remnant? I'm not taking a devil's advocate point but there's a lot we don't know and assuming total insularity seems too handy. And isn't the planet in the Savages rather unusual, in light of later developments? |
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Nov 1, 2015 21:57:43 GMT
I wouldn't be too surprised if they do a limited edition set exclusive to their site, maybe with Fenric as a recurring villain tying all four stories together instead of the Valeyard.
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Post by elgranto on Nov 2, 2015 5:36:43 GMT
Wow, thanks for the replies guys! I wasn't expecting the thread to be this active. I rather like the idea of a special box set in the same mold as Sixie's Last Adventure, with each story focusing on a particular era of Ace's life: her teens post- Dragonfire, early twenties with Hex, later twenties with Benny (perhaps detailing her departure), and lastly a story set in the relative present on Gallifrey focusing on the Time War. The first three episodes could be linked via narration by Ace on Gallifrey, a framing device also used in I, Davros, to help establish their relevance in the overall story arc. Elements from each story may then play an important part in the final act, all the while gaining greater insight into her character and her relationship with the Doctor. Another benefit of this format, I just realized, is that four major branches of continuity can be brought together under the same "umbrrrella" (sorry 'bout that  ):the Classic TV series, Big Finish audio, the Virgin books, and the new TV series respectively. And by bringing in the Time War, which RTD said is precipitated by the Doctor's destruction of Skaro in Remembrance of the Daleks, it means Ace would have to deal with, in some degree, the repercussions of her time with the Doctor. Incidentally, it would be interesting to see if she'll ever meet the Eighth Doctor at some point. That should make for a fascinating encounter. I'll stop rambling now.  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2015 6:18:26 GMT
What's Karn then? It's in the same system of Kasterborus, is intimately connected with Gallifrey historically, is it a colony? Or a remnant? I'm not taking a devil's advocate point but there's a lot we don't know and assuming total insularity seems too handy. And isn't the planet in the Savages rather unusual, in light of later developments? In what way? |
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):the Classic TV series, Big Finish audio, the Virgin books, and the new TV series respectively. And by bringing in the Time War, which RTD said is precipitated by the Doctor's destruction of Skaro in Remembrance of the Daleks, it means Ace would have to deal with, in some degree, the repercussions of her time with the Doctor. Incidentally, it would be interesting to see if she'll ever meet the Eighth Doctor at some point. That should make for a fascinating encounter.