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Post by newt5996 on Nov 2, 2017 0:26:49 GMT
Been listening to this one as I go back through the Main Range from Renaissance of the Daleks to Blue Forgotten Planet and some other stuff. I love this one's atmosphere and portrayal of science gone completely mad. It's pretty surreal and having the Doctor almost endorse Marxism doesn't really sit well with me. He even gives the old No True Scotsman fallacy saying Leninism wasn't REAL Communism.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Nov 2, 2017 2:09:34 GMT
The Doctor is mates with Lenin (and Mao) so it’s not a rare occurance for him,
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2017 4:10:23 GMT
Well, the Fourth Doctor does misquote Marx once or twice in The Sun Makers. Given that the French Revolution is one of his favourite periods in history and that most of his toppling of empires involves the workers rising up against their masters... It is in character and would likely be an ideology that makes sense to him. The Doctor's alien background likely means that he's seen non-human societies where genuine forms communism thrive. Everyone has ownership of production and class is a division that fundamentally does not exist.
That said, I don't think he would have condoned the senseless destruction that occurred through Mao's Cultural Revolution. He'd have probably been on the ground trying to preserve as much of their pre-revisionist history as he could. His dismissal of Leninism is probably because it ignores the reformist aspects of The Communist Manifesto (the original pamphlet written by Engels and Marx). The "bourgeoisie" (upper classes, royals, etc.) according to Lenin are to be destroyed rather than reincorporated into society.
Communism, as outlined in the Manifesto, is a nice idea. It's a curiously strong fixture of Utopian science fiction, probably in no small part thanks to Roddenberry's vision of Star Trek. Everyone gets their fair share and all are treated equally. No need to want or hunger. Unfortunately, like a lot of ideas, humans have a habit of using them as an excuse for their own self-serving aims. It gets put down in scripture or in a pamphlet and the text is subsequently cherry-picked for what they need to drive them to power.
Another good example is common perceptions of existentialism. Existentialism, contrary to popular culture, is not nihilism. Instead, it's a school of thought that says: "It's okay that there probably isn't an objective truth. More than okay, it's amazing. You get the ultimate freedom: to decide what it all means for you personally."
Edit: I forgot to say something about Brotherhood itself. I think it comes from a really strong run of stories and has an unusually intricate "matryoshka doll" plot that's just lovely to untangle. Everything involved gets used extremely well -- from the Doctor to Charley to the titular biomechanical menace -- and the returning elements aren't used as the main draw of the story, which allows for the original material to come across rather strongly. Bolstered by its past memories, rather than engulphed by them like victims of the kyropites. I think it manages to do something almost totally new for the Daleks, which is impressive enough on its own, but it also deals with the ongoing arc buzzing away in the background. One of my favourites. Definitely recommended.
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Post by mrperson on Nov 2, 2017 17:23:18 GMT
I positively love this one. Wonderfully complex.
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Post by Ela on Nov 2, 2017 18:12:12 GMT
I positively love this one. Wonderfully complex. So complex that I remember having a hard time figuring out what the heck was going on, as I remember.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2017 23:30:41 GMT
It's pretty surreal and having the Doctor almost endorse Marxism doesn't really sit well with me. That's nothing... Daleks statng that they are Thals was bad enough, but having Communist Daleks singing The Red Flag was just outrageous. Just what was Alan Barnes smoking to come up with such a fiendish - and offensive to all right-minded Daleks - story? There was a lot going on in Brotherhood of the Daleks and it took me a second listen to put most of it together! It's probably one of the most bonkers Doctor Who stories out there... but it was jolly good fun.
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Post by omega on Nov 2, 2017 23:34:01 GMT
What's odd is Charley suddenly using words and references from her own time, when she should be avoiding them. She must have picked up enough from her travels with Eight to have a more varied reference pool.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 0:47:24 GMT
What's odd is Charley suddenly using words and references from her own time, when she should be avoiding them. She must have picked up enough from her travels with Eight to have a more varied reference pool. I suppose some words do stick more than others. I was taught "atomic" rather than "nuclear" by television, so I never really use the later word because of habit. I wonder if it's a side-effect of Charley having to "stand on her own" with Sixie?
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Post by omega on Nov 3, 2017 0:57:56 GMT
What's odd is Charley suddenly using words and references from her own time, when she should be avoiding them. She must have picked up enough from her travels with Eight to have a more varied reference pool. I suppose some words do stick more than others. I was taught "atomic" rather than "nuclear" by television, so I never really use the later word because of habit. I wonder if it's a side-effect of Charley having to "stand on her own" with Sixie? True, but what Charley says is unique to this story, especially at the level she does. In Return of the Krotons and Raincloud Man she's back on the defensive. Might be an effect of the pollen.
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Post by Timelord007 on Nov 3, 2017 7:50:02 GMT
I didn't like this on first listen as i found it to be rather complex & jarring but subsequent relistens has made me appreciate what a cracking Dalek adventure this is.
I'd rate it 8/10
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Post by omega on Nov 3, 2017 7:56:54 GMT
I didn't like this on first listen as i found it to be rather complex & jarring but subsequent relistens has made me appreciate what a cracking Dalek adventure this is. I'd rate it 8/10 Definitely one you need to focus on, and even knowing the twists ahead of time it's still mighty confusing! I love the cliffhangers. The first one is so left field, out of the frying pan and into the (line of) fire. The second one really makes you hate cliffhangers, any resolution that wasn't Charley spilling the beans would be a cop-out (the ventilation system failing wasn't too bad a resolution though).
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Post by number13 on Feb 8, 2021 15:01:46 GMT
Brilliant. Completely, mind-spinningly brilliant story by Alan Barnes with so many great lines and in the end I think I did follow what was going on! Which is a credit to the storytelling and performances, it was complicated wasn't it? I simply loved the idea of a Leninist Thal "anti-Davros" and his "spaced out" Marxist Daleks wanting all the universe to 'JOIN US! JOIN US! JOIN US!', it seemed so them to go from one extreme to the other. And I literally laughed until I cried when they sang 'The Red Flag', Dalek-style and hailed The Red Dalek. I always suspected Communism might appeal to the Dalek mindset - unity, conformity, collectivity!
No thanks comrade Murgat, your Dalek revolution was only ever going to end one way. Give me the nice, friendly, liberal traditional Thals any day. The Doctor might embrace the theoretical idea of 'brotherhood' where all work together in harmony, but the Doctor is the perfect literary hero and in his vision of 'brotherhood' there would of course be the freedom to dissent and not belong.
Charley was the voice of reality for most of this story and she crisply summed it up for me: 'Bolshevik nonsense!' But it was a lot of fun!
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Post by slithe on Feb 13, 2021 11:52:35 GMT
Amazing story - great fun and really thought provoking.
Challenges the idea of Daleks as robotic fascists. Not sure what Nation would have made of it. This is one that I would dearly love to see as a TV episode - against Capaldi's Doctor.
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Post by Kestrel on Aug 8, 2021 1:35:25 GMT
This was certainly a weird one, huh?
As I make my way through the Six/Charlie arc (almost done) the stories have been pretty hit-or-miss so far. The last one I listened to...didn't do much for me. But Brotherhood wound up being a pleasant improvement. The banter between the Doctor and Charlie here, especially, is on point.
I'm not sure whether or not this was meant to be more comedic or dramatic, but I think it struck a solid balance between the two. Charlie's constant mocking of of "the Bolshies," was a lot of fun, and a nice reminder that as open-minded as she sometimes seems, she's still from a pretty wealthy, conservative background.
On that subject, I'm not sure that the "communism" angle added much to this story beyond the superficial trappings. Just an excuse for Daleks to shout, "COMRADE," and talk about seizing the means of production. It honestly kind of felt like a Cold War relic -- playing off the old association of communist = evil. I can't help but wonder if the story would've been better if it'd really examined and explored how communism might play out in Dalek society. Of course, before that, we basically need to see what Dalek society looks like in the first place. And, honestly, it already seems kind of communist: every Dalek has the same basic housing, and other than the handful of leaders, all of the rank-and-file Daleks appear to be treated equally. Folks tend to most readily associate the Daleks with fascism, but TBH I think the stronger analogs are with totalitarian communism and white supremacy.
And I gotta say I love the idea of Dalek children being raised without knowing they're Daleks. How much of their evil is genetic, and how much is cultural? An interesting idea to explore, though it begs the question, do Daleks even have children? I thought they were cloned and raised to maturity almost instantly....
So, anyway.
Am I the only one consistently surprised by the existence of the Thals? How did they even manage to escape Skaro in the first place, let alone establish an interplanetary military presence capable of going up against the Daleks? I'd always thought that after Genesis of the Daleks, Davros basically rolled over 'em all.
And speaking of confusing, I also fail to understand why they keep teasing Charlie's confession. It's such a cheap way of contriving drama. They really ought to either have her confess, or keep silent.
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