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Post by Digi on Dec 19, 2017 12:31:45 GMT
Another thematic motif that I’m embarrassed to say didn’t even occur to me till I was in the shower this morning: Obi-Wan/Anakin/Luke, and Luke/Ben/Rey.
Obi-Wan believed he could train Anakin - one of the strongest Force-wielding individuals ever encountered - in the ways of the Jedi. Anakin was seduced by a powerful dark sider and when faced with a tipping-point choice, chose to destroy the Jedi rather than trust in his mentor. Years later, Kenobi took on a new, powerful student, but before he could properly train him, sacrificed his life battling his former student so his new one could escape certain death.
In the previous paragraph, replace every instance of Obi-Wan with Luke, Anakin with Ben, and Luke with Rey - it works exactly the same.
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Post by rran on Dec 19, 2017 12:38:46 GMT
Another thematic motif that I’m embarrassed to say didn’t even occur to me till I was in the shower this morning: Obi-Wan/Anakin/Luke, and Luke/Ben/Rey. Obi-Wan believed he could train Anakin - one of the strongest Force-wielding individuals ever encountered - in the ways of the Jedi. Anakin was seduced by a powerful dark sider and when faced with a tipping-point choice, chose to destroy the Jedi rather than trust in his mentor. Years later, Kenobi took on a new, powerful student, but before he could properly train him, sacrificed his life battling his former student so his new one could escape certain death. In the previous paragraph, replace every instance of Obi-Wan with Luke, Anakin with Ben, and Luke with Rey - it works exactly the same. Yes, exactly. Copy-paste
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Dec 19, 2017 12:48:10 GMT
Darth doesn't mention Luke. In his comics he talks about need a Kyber crystal for something and he needs to take it from a Jedi. He says its now difficult because of the Purge, but goes on to say about Jedi undergoing Barrash as Penance. so because they've cut themselves off from the Force they'll be difficult to find. You mean that grumpy Jedi hermit with the droid from the first story arc? He was in self-imposed exile from before the end of the war, and had not cut himself off from the Force at all, but was just living as a hermit away from Jedi affairs. That’s not what Luke did/was doing here, that’s what Obi-Wan was doing from the end of the war till ANH. Luke had cut himself off not just from people, but from the Force. Im not sure if its that. If I can find the article again, I'll link it
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Dec 19, 2017 12:50:07 GMT
Im going to see it again on Thursday. See how much settles once I spot stuff I missed
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 12:57:05 GMT
Another thematic motif that I’m embarrassed to say didn’t even occur to me till I was in the shower this morning: Obi-Wan/Anakin/Luke, and Luke/Ben/Rey. Obi-Wan believed he could train Anakin - one of the strongest Force-wielding individuals ever encountered - in the ways of the Jedi. Anakin was seduced by a powerful dark sider and when faced with a tipping-point choice, chose to destroy the Jedi rather than trust in his mentor. Years later, Kenobi took on a new, powerful student, but before he could properly train him, sacrificed his life battling his former student so his new one could escape certain death. In the previous paragraph, replace every instance of Obi-Wan with Luke, Anakin with Ben, and Luke with Rey - it works exactly the same. Yes, exactly. Copy-paste Praising it for using themes and motifs in a new context and criticising it for copying and pasting aren't the same thing - I think you picked Digi up wrong, unless I did - though given their praise in the previous pages, I think it's more likely the former.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Dec 19, 2017 13:02:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 13:07:13 GMT
I'm not sure why that writer thinks the books turning up again are an Easter Egg...it's not subtext, just text. It was pretty explicit. Ditto Han's dice.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Dec 19, 2017 13:10:12 GMT
I'm not sure why that writer thinks the books turning up again are an Easter Egg...it's not subtext, just text. It was pretty explicit. Ditto Han's dice. Lol very true. He could have cut some out
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Post by rran on Dec 19, 2017 13:21:18 GMT
Yes, exactly. Copy-paste Praising it for using themes and motifs in a new context and criticising it for copying and pasting aren't the same thing - I think you picked Digi up wrong, unless I did - though given their praise in the previous pages, I think it's more likely the former. His was a praise . I got that .Mine was a criticism. I choose to look at the same scenario as copy paste.We all have our opinions
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 13:48:43 GMT
Praising it for using themes and motifs in a new context and criticising it for copying and pasting aren't the same thing - I think you picked Digi up wrong, unless I did - though given their praise in the previous pages, I think it's more likely the former. His was a praise . I got that .Mine was a criticism. I choose to look at the same scenario as copy paste.We all have our opinions I've got to admit, you can stretch that dynamic a lot further than what these recent films have done. The Exile, Revan and Kreia from KotOR II, for instance. Both your commanding officer and his (later your) teacher are master manipulators who believe that solely existing as a light or dark side user does not work (and there's a lot of evidence to say they're right). They believe that a balance must be struck within the self in order to flow into the greater universe. Hence, your mentor for the game is a combination of both and neither. It's an extremely good game for that, it shows what happens when there are adherents to the immoderate, uncompromising extremism of either ideology -- light or dark -- the Sith corrode themselves from within and the Jedi atrophy from inaction. But... The Last Jedi and The Force Awakens before it are much safer properties, reacting against what the prequels did before them. They're not really allowed to explore the dynamics of Star Wars in that way (i.e. a Han Solo character who was also a Sith interrogator), so my instinct is just to look at them as AU curios.
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Post by rran on Dec 19, 2017 14:03:38 GMT
His was a praise . I got that .Mine was a criticism. I choose to look at the same scenario as copy paste.We all have our opinions I've got to admit, you can stretch that dynamic a lot further than what these recent films have done. The Exile, Revan and Kreia from KotOR II, for instance. Both your commanding officer and his (later your) teacher are master manipulators who believe that solely existing as a light or dark side user does not work (and there's a lot of evidence to say they're right). They believe that a balance must be struck within the self in order to flow into the greater universe. Hence, your mentor for the game is a combination of both and neither. It's an extremely good game for that, it shows what happens when there are adherents to the immoderate, uncompromising extremism of either ideology -- light or dark -- the Sith corrode themselves from within and the Jedi atrophy from inaction. But... The Last Jedi and The Force Awakens before it are much safer properties, reacting against what the prequels did before them. They're not really allowed to explore the dynamics of Star Wars in that way (i.e. a Han Solo character who was also a Sith interrogator), so my instinct is just to look at them as AU curios. That they’re not allowed to explore the dynamics is a valid point. My intent was that two people interpret the same scenario in very different ways It’s good to see that many people liked it. Unfortunately I found it tiresome
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 14:17:21 GMT
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Post by mrperson on Dec 19, 2017 22:11:35 GMT
The wife's review: that was stupid, oh my
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Post by sherlock on Dec 19, 2017 23:48:27 GMT
I enjoyed it but thought it was too long. Something had to be cut, probably Poe's whole mutiny since that went nowhere and could have been avoided by the admiral just explaining the plan. Poe's arc was fine but the actual mutiny sequence wasn't necessarily. Maybe shorten the whole Canto Bight chase sequence as well. It needed editing.
Rey's parents being nobodies is imo a far better choice than if she'd been related to anyone. Any relation revelation would have failed to have the impact of 'I am your father', and the whole point of the Force is that it's in everything so she doesn't need to have a Jedi lineage to be strong in it. I hope this isn't retconned into a lie by Kylo or something. Rey's just a normal person and that's fine.
Kylo Ren's arc was great. His conflict was nicely built up and his killing of Snoke makes perfect sense, his mantra of burning the past to be his own man was realised fully as he essentially flipped the table after Snoke revealed he was manipulating all his talks with Rey. Does it matter we know nothing more of Snoke? Not really imo, he wouldn't have any more impact if he was revealed to be Plagueis or Darth Sidious's second cousin. Also the fight with the Royal Guards was awesome, more lightsaber action like that please.
Luke's arc worked I thought. He failed and created a monster and didn't want to event risk failing again. As for his relationship with Leia, he makes clear he feels he's already failed Leia-he lost her son. Yoda giving him the pep talk to stop focusing on the failures of himself and by extension the Jedi and just learn from them and move forward works too, especially as a contrast to Kylo's 'burn the past and forget it' mantra.
If I'm honest I wasn't particularly won over by Finn and Rose as a romantic couple (from my perspective at least the kiss seemed to come from nowhere, though her saving his life made sense) and was slightly annoyed neither of them perished in the battle. Can't see what else there is for Rose to develop and Finn taking out that cannon in a suicide run would have been a decent exit for him, but fair enough them not wanting to kill a main character.
Luke's final confrontation and the revelation I thought worked fine, but please let that be a one-off power show. It's established as a fatal move here so please don't have it be retconned and have Jedi producing duplicates all over the place in future.
So yeah I enjoyed it overall but it felt bloated and in need of editing.
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Post by Jeedai on Dec 19, 2017 23:57:12 GMT
Overall I think this movie has a LOT to love, and on first viewing I like it a lot... BUT what I like comes at the cost of a LOT of dumb sh*t that's there just to move the pieces into place. The tense discussions between Luke and Rey over the Force, the Jedi Order's imperfections, and Luke's legendary status were fantastic. So was the Yoda/Luke interplay (yay puppet Yoda!)... BUT all of Luke’s misery, and Kylo's, started with a massively OOC moment of weakness on Luke's part. This is/was someone who had every reason to hate Vader but found the one piece of good in him and fought for it. To say he decided -- even for a second -- to knock off a close relative and protégé simply because he sensed some darkness in him or started buying into his own press doesn't sit well with me. The shot of the fleet being wrecked by a Holdo taking her ship to lightspeed was IN-CRED-I-BLE. And the brutal deconstruction of Poe's flyboy shenanigans that ultimately forced her into that move was a long overdue one in a whole genre where the million-to-one shots always work... BUT they came wrapped in a 'tower siege in space' gimmick which while a cool concept didn't work in execution. This took me out of the movie at points, because the fanboy in me couldn't stop counting off the ways it shouldn't work. Why didn't one of the First Order ships just hyperjump ahead of the Resistance fleet and pincer it? No one ever said they were running out of fuel. Or send an unmanned shuttle to do exactly what Holdo did? Why didn't one of those First Order ships have a gravity well projector to stop themselves from being FTL-bitchslapped at all? Those were canonized in Rebels! How the hell do the First Order not pick up on, or their strategists plan for, an escape attempt? AAAUUUGGGHH! The more I think about this, the more holes I find ripe for picking. The final bit with Luke ‘standing’ against the First Order was great, and so was him trolling Kylo… BUT the Resistance’s last stand vs the next-gen AT-ATs looked too much like Empire in a movie that up to that point hadn't smacked to me of The Force Awakens' reliance on previous movie moments. And did we really need a mini Death Star to show up? That's how many movies that couldn't get by without one? The ending scene I think was one of the best in the series... BUT it came at the cost of the over-long detour to the casino planet which set it up AND a CGI animal chase scene which felt like a throwback to the Prequels. The best thing I can say about Canto Bight is the whole Crazy Plan That Just Might Work trope getting smashed to bits furthers Poe's arc of learning to be a real leader... BUT seen in that light, Finn and Rose come off looking like props in his story. The revelation that Rey is a 'nobody' who has forged her own connection to the Resistance and Jedi rather than it being granted to her as some sort of familial legacy was great... BUT, no wait, that was absolutely great.
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Post by Jeedai on Dec 19, 2017 23:57:29 GMT
Snoke was a McGuffin - we've been conditioned to expect the big bad over a trilogy...this subverted that. The idea that it should just be Darth Plageuis or a reincarnated Palpatine...why? What does that add? He's only there to be the proximate cause of Kylo Ren and to help surprise the audiences with a shock death. It absolutely worked. No-one saw it coming. He served his purpose of elevating Kylo Ren. The apprentice kills the master. This is classical storytelling here. Ditto all of this. I really like the way Snoke went out on a meta level. Kylo didn't just usurp him from the First Order, he usurped him from the regular Star Wars formula. In a franchise that has relied on 'rhyming moments' to paraphrase Lucas, this was a genuine surprise for me. Specifically because Snoke's death didn't sit back and wait for his life story to be laid out first. Very much welcome in my eyes after the way The Force Awakens clutched on to previous story beats. How could his past and turning of Kylo be revealed to the satisfaction of those who wanted to see that, anyway? Turn Episode VIII into as much of a rehash of the Prequel Trilogy as The Force Awakens was of the Original three? No thanks. I much prefer what we got. What Disney need to stop doing I making it so that you have to read the books and comics and Illustrated history books to figure out the back stories for a lot of people. I dont think this was as bad a problem here as in The Force Awakens, which really left me stumped in places because I had avoided everything for fear of spoilers. "Why is there a Republic AND a Resistance?" "Why isn't Coruscant the capitol anymore?" "Haven't I already seen this movie?" This time around I came in more 'prepared.' I dont read the junior fiction, but among other things I did read was Phasma's comic and novel... and they did nothing to aid this movie or her time in it. If anything, they work against each other. The book/comics establish Phasma as a supremely selfish individual who will do *absolutely anything* to survive. And yet here she spends her last moments hating on Finn rather than flee from an exploding docking bay. If last moments they were... I also watched some Battlefront II/ Resurrection DLC lets plays, and story mode provided nothing beyond Leia getting a warning that the First Order was headed for the Resistance base and the Dreadnought schematics. Maybe Yoda coulda done something against the First Order. He used that sweet force lightning on the tree, but maybe he too knew that cutting corners isn't a good idea. My interpretation of that scene was that Yoda did precisely what he needed to do in order to misdirect Luke into doing the right thing himself. I think he was using 'a certain point of view' on Luke immediately before lighting the tree up, in telling Luke there was nothing in in the tree that Rey didn't already have... because she had already stolen everything. Then he immediately burned the tree down to keep Luke from going in and finding out she'd done it. Instead finding the books missing and going even deeper into despair due to letting the Jedi/Sith cycle start up yet again, Luke sat down to talk. And ultimately decided to act against the First Order and free himself of guilt. Luke's final confrontation and the revelation I thought worked fine, but please let that be a one-off power show. It's established as a fatal move here so please don't have it be retconned and have Jedi producing duplicates all over the place in future. Seeing Luke tumble over the rock and then climb back up had me thinking of Doctor Who for a brief moment. "He used up too much energy. Time to regenerate!"
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2017 2:44:39 GMT
I've got to admit, you can stretch that dynamic a lot further than what these recent films have done. The Exile, Revan and Kreia from KotOR II, for instance. Both your commanding officer and his (later your) teacher are master manipulators who believe that solely existing as a light or dark side user does not work (and there's a lot of evidence to say they're right). They believe that a balance must be struck within the self in order to flow into the greater universe. Hence, your mentor for the game is a combination of both and neither. It's an extremely good game for that, it shows what happens when there are adherents to the immoderate, uncompromising extremism of either ideology -- light or dark -- the Sith corrode themselves from within and the Jedi atrophy from inaction. But... The Last Jedi and The Force Awakens before it are much safer properties, reacting against what the prequels did before them. They're not really allowed to explore the dynamics of Star Wars in that way (i.e. a Han Solo character who was also a Sith interrogator), so my instinct is just to look at them as AU curios. That they’re not allowed to explore the dynamics is a valid point. My intent was that two people interpret the same scenario in very different ways It’s good to see that many people liked it. Unfortunately I found it tiresome Ah, well, there's always the Thrawn trilogy written by Timothy Zahn.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2017 8:15:07 GMT
Yoda giving him the pep talk to stop focusing on the failures of himself and by extension the Jedi and just learn from them and move forward works too, especially as a contrast to Kylo's 'burn the past and forget it' mantra. And the more I've thought about the movie - and it's been quite a lot - the message of Yoda telling Luke the sacred books have their place but there's no substitute for your own future seems to be a surrogate for Rian Johnson telling fans that being too reverential to the past movies and not being open to something new (leaving their own island - in a sea of established canon) is only going to prepare them for disappointment in the second half of the film.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2017 8:29:15 GMT
For those that love and hate it we seem to generally have found the casino scene and chase to be the more problematic, and the pacing and length to be issues that could have been better. Those seem to be the areas there's not much disagreement on, only degrees.
Despite Poe being - along with Luke - easily my favourite part of the film, I'm still not sure his "Holding for General Hux" thing was as funny as Rian did. It didn't really get laughs in the audience I was in. His "Who talks first, you talk first? I talk first?" in Ep VII worked better. This gag just had the audience all thinking "Do they have the same phone etiquette we do in the Star Wars Universe? Do they have phones?". I did like the way both actors played it but it didn't feel part of this world. Though, as I think I said, I love that Poe has gone from "Well, he's the new Han Solo" to the new heir apparent to Leia. Suberting expectations again.
Interesting that JJ Abrams is back for Ep IX. Will he continue to subvert or will he revert to his more traditionalist style as he showed in Ep VII? There aren't many cliffhangers, nothing to dictate where the next one has to go or what timeframe so it could be anything. Then, I wonder what Colin Treverrow's ideas were going to be before Lucasfilm fired him? One odd thing is that despite loving this a lot more than Force Awakens (which I was a big fan of anyway), it doesn't leave me as eager to see the next one as the last film did. Not enough was left dangling to really keep me on tenterhooks, it loses the idea of the serial nature of the trilogies really. Again, subversive,but perhaps not in the best way to keep audiences enthralled over the next 18 months. Much of this worked as the end of the story not quite so much the middle part.
I should say I have zero interest in the young Han Solo movie. Firing Miller and Lord was one thing but hiring Ron Howard? I already thought the premise would lend itself to be 100% fanservice "Here's Han winning the Falcon" "Here's the Kessel Run" "Here's how Chewie owes him a life-debt" but hiring the premier safe pair of Hollywood hands just confirmed my fear it's going to be risk-free and sterile. I hope to be wrong.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Dec 20, 2017 12:18:33 GMT
Interesting you mention Colin Treverrow. I thought I read somewhere that Rian Johnson was writing the script for IX and Colin was going to direct that?
Guess that all changed when they sacked him
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