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Post by agentten on Jan 3, 2018 0:39:03 GMT
*Spoilers*
I thought the two previous films were poor and this film did nothing to dissuade me that Star Wars is in a bad place creatively. I find a lot of the ideas in this new trilogy hard to swallow. Han Solo as a dead beat dad undoes his lovely character arc in the original trilogy that goes from scoundrel to responsible hero. Luke Skywalker considered murdering his sleeping nephew. What? In what universe does that match the character that we got to know, and see progress from whiny kid to self sacrificing knight, in the original films? I get that things happen in life, good things but bad things too, and those things change how you see the world. But when Luke tells Leia that he can't save Ben I honestly couldn't even recognize that I was watching a Star Wars film about Luke Skywalker. This is the Jedi Knight who redeemed his father, Darth Vader, who let's face it, did much worse things on screen than what we've seen Ben Solo do. Anakin Skywalker is a mass murderer of children. However, Luke still found the good in him and that's a big part of the message of hope in the original trilogy. With Ben, I'm not even sure what he ever did that was so much more terrible than what Anakin did that Luke can't see any path toward redeeming another member of his family who clearly, badly, needs his uncle's help.
There's a lot in this film that I thought was just messy film-making, too, such as the Finn plot that leaked all of the dramatic tension of the chase portion of the film out by both slowing the pacing to a crawl in the second act, and by reminding us that the chase can't possibly be all that frantic because Finn and Rose have the time to slip away and go rescue some horses. Their goal was a bit vague anyway, but they end up accomplishing nothing plot wise. I felt that Finn was not all that useful of a character in The Force Awakens and in this film he felt especially pointless to me. I thought at the end when he was prepared to sacrifice himself to stop the advance of the First Order super weapon, that at least he could have a death that meant something, but that dramatic moment, like so much else in the film, is derailed by an aggressive attempt to subvert expectations. The problem as I see it is that the film expends so much effort trying to go left when the audience expects it to go right that it doesn't take time to stop and ask itself if going left is a good idea.
I felt that the film did make some effort to move forward with the franchise, but it did so while still falling into the same trap that The Force Awakens did. It put a new coat of paint on some very familiar tropes, ideas, scenes, and plot points that the franchise seems reluctant to truly move on from. Every time I thought the film might finally be taking a bold step forward with the story, such as the moment when Kylo invites Rey to let the old things die and make something new with him, the film back-peddled and put all of its toys back where it found them. At the end of the film I honestly didn't care where the story went next or what would happen to the characters or the galaxy. Part of that is the film failing to involve me in its drama, but part of it may also be the knowledge that nothing will ever be solved in the Star Wars universe. There will always be another Death Star, another evil empire, another Sith Lord, and another rebellion. Even if the rebellion succeeds in overthrowing a Sith Lord and his evil empire, a new Sith Lord and evil empire will immediately take its place with no explanation and all of the progress, growth, and sacrifices made from one trilogy to the next will be erased. My problem with that is not really because of the cyclical nature of the Star Wars mythos, it's because I can't quite forget that there's always a new Disney-produced Star Wars film coming at us every year for the rest of our lives. Star Wars just doesn't feel special anymore.
With franchises, I find myself taking a longer look at them as I grow older and more installments are produced. I first noticed it with the Die Hard films. When the fifth film came out and I had a really negative reaction to it, I looked back on that film series and realized that since I only really care for the first and third films, and never find myself rewatching the second, fourth, or fifth films, I no longer felt like I was actually a fan of the franchise, I just like a couple of Bruce Willis movies. The same thing has happened with several other franchises. I used to think of myself as a fan of The Incredible Hulk because I love the classic Bill Bixby series so much, but I realized that I don't actually care for the vast majority of the character's other appearances in various media. I had to take a step back and realize that I'm not actually a fan of the character, I'm a fan of a particular show the character was in. Star Wars has become the same for me now. I used to be a MASSIVE Star Wars fan, but years and years of movies that I don't care for at all have caused me to realize, I'm really just a fan of the original trilogy. I'm more a hypothetical Star Wars fan. I like the idea of a good Star Wars movie, but it's been a long time since I've seen one and I don't have a lot of hope for seeing one again anytime soon.
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Post by Ela on Jan 4, 2018 6:52:41 GMT
I think part of the reason for te controversy is that it is a bit of a subversive take on Star Wars going more realistic than the normal {Spoilers} The band of a heroes who on their own initiative go off to sabotague with the First Order and buy a breathing space for the resistance don't save the day but instead end up making things much worse instead (so a large portion of the film is about the heroes making a mess of things). The criminal they work with can't be trusted. Rey's parentage doesn't matter. this film is the "dark" middle chapter of a trilogy and is about the "forging" of the heroes. {Spoiler} the resistence has been decimated, but the heroes have learned from their experiences and are better than before - and seeds have been planted to regrow the resistance. The First Order have taken over the Republic but they have lost their leader (and maybe Phasma) and may have a hard time keeping unified and properly focussed. Ha, you are not the only one who thinks The Last Jedi is subversive. But this writer's post may give different reasons than you were thinking of. “THIS IS NOT GOING TO GO THE WAY YOU THINK”: THE LAST JEDI IS SUBVERSIVE AF, AND I AM HERE FOR IT
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Post by christmastrenzalore on Jan 5, 2018 0:34:30 GMT
I went to see it again with a friend, and enjoyed it quite a bit more than I had onmy initial viewing. It still had pretty big problems, especially in Poe's story line, which I actually found even worse this time around, but with foresight of how things would turn out, the weird pacing and spotty telegraphing didn't bother me as much, and I was able to appreciate the good stuff a lot more. Regardless of it's individual merits, I think this'll be a healthy entry to the series in the long run.
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Post by Timelord007 on Jan 5, 2018 8:57:39 GMT
Went to see it again just to see if maybe i was over critical & harsh, i wasn't i hated it even more second time around & noticed the faults & it has reassured myself I'm done with this particular trilogy.
Those who enjoyed it great, i loathed it, i literally wanted to put my fist through the screen.
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Jan 5, 2018 10:17:20 GMT
I still haven't seen it yet but I am 99% sure I know exactly what happens just through friends and online stuff.. Will see it soon
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2018 11:52:32 GMT
Went to see it again just to see if maybe i was over critical & harsh, i wasn't i hated it even more second time around & noticed the faults & it has reassured myself I'm done with this particular trilogy. Those who enjoyed it great, i loathed it, i literally wanted to put my fist through the screen. You went again! Wow! You will get no sympathy from me lol
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jan 5, 2018 12:11:32 GMT
Went to see it again just to see if maybe i was over critical & harsh, i wasn't i hated it even more second time around & noticed the faults & it has reassured myself I'm done with this particular trilogy. Those who enjoyed it great, i loathed it, i literally wanted to put my fist through the screen. Worth a shot, but least it solidified how you felt
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Post by rran on Jan 5, 2018 12:49:54 GMT
Went to see it again just to see if maybe i was over critical & harsh, i wasn't i hated it even more second time around & noticed the faults & it has reassured myself I'm done with this particular trilogy. Those who enjoyed it great, i loathed it, i literally wanted to put my fist through the screen. I won’t even attempt it again
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2018 18:34:56 GMT
Went to see it again just to see if maybe i was over critical & harsh, i wasn't i hated it even more second time around & noticed the faults & it has reassured myself I'm done with this particular trilogy. Those who enjoyed it great, i loathed it, i literally wanted to put my fist through the screen. I won’t even attempt it again I didn't dislike The Last Jedi as much as some but I couldn't sit through it again either, the main fault I had with the film is it was way too long. Had the story been exceptionally good time might have flown by and I might not have noticed it, (I loved Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings films and they were very long, I was just too immersed in them to notice.) but as it was, The Last Jedi just dragged on and on and I was looking at my watch thinking it must be over soon. Maybe I'll watch The Last Jedi again in a few years time when I can watch the three films together?
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jan 6, 2018 1:34:32 GMT
Just throwing this out there: Empire wasn't universally beloved when it came out. Critics weren't kind to it, and there were a lot of people who hated the twist. Yes, arguably the most famous twist of 80s cinema, and a lot of audiences thought it was stupid.
Time does a lot to film. I can't help but wonder how it will treat Last Jedi, especially after Ep9, when we have the whole package.
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Post by Timelord007 on Jan 6, 2018 8:19:46 GMT
Went to see it again just to see if maybe i was over critical & harsh, i wasn't i hated it even more second time around & noticed the faults & it has reassured myself I'm done with this particular trilogy. Those who enjoyed it great, i loathed it, i literally wanted to put my fist through the screen. You went again! Wow! You will get no sympathy from me lol Lmao, i just need 24hrs in the zero room & the mind probe now to recover.
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Post by Timelord007 on Jan 6, 2018 8:24:17 GMT
Went to see it again just to see if maybe i was over critical & harsh, i wasn't i hated it even more second time around & noticed the faults & it has reassured myself I'm done with this particular trilogy. Those who enjoyed it great, i loathed it, i literally wanted to put my fist through the screen. I won’t even attempt it again I'm done with this trilogy, i just had to rewatch it to be 100% sure that my feelings towards it were justified which i was. I love Star Wars so this was heartbreaking to me especially with my current family dramas i needed escapism not torture.
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Post by Timelord007 on Jan 6, 2018 8:25:02 GMT
Went to see it again just to see if maybe i was over critical & harsh, i wasn't i hated it even more second time around & noticed the faults & it has reassured myself I'm done with this particular trilogy. Those who enjoyed it great, i loathed it, i literally wanted to put my fist through the screen. Worth a shot, but least it solidified how you felt "My arms, my legs, my everything".
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Post by Timelord007 on Jan 6, 2018 8:27:02 GMT
I won’t even attempt it again I didn't dislike The Last Jedi as much as some but I couldn't sit through it again either, the main fault I had with the film is it was way too long. Had the story been exceptionally good time might have flown by and I might not have noticed it, (I loved Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings films and they were very long, I was just too immersed in them to notice.) but as it was, The Last Jedi just dragged on and on and I was looking at my watch thinking it must be over soon. Maybe I'll watch The Last Jedi again in a few years time when I can watch the three films together? LOTR are epic adventures but feature great characters & drama combined with amazing action & emotional scenes everything The Last Jedi wasn't to me.
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Post by rran on Jan 6, 2018 8:48:17 GMT
I won’t even attempt it again I'm done with this trilogy, i just had to rewatch it to be 100% sure that my feelings towards it were justified which i was. I love Star Wars so this was heartbreaking to me especially with my current family dramas i needed escapism not torture. Ofcourse I found TFA and TLJ more than disappointing, but I’m still ready to give Episode 9 a chance with the hope the last of the trilogy redeems the apology for SW that episodes 7 and 8 were
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2018 11:34:37 GMT
Just throwing this out there: Empire wasn't universally beloved when it came out. Critics weren't kind to it, and there were a lot of people who hated the twist. Yes, arguably the most famous twist of 80s cinema, and a lot of audiences thought it was stupid. Time does a lot to film. I can't help but wonder how it will treat Last Jedi, especially after Ep9, when we have the whole package. Doubt it. TLJ is one of the oddest most misjudged middle films of a trilogy I have ever seen. An attempt to reboot the franchise in the middle of a trilogy? What a bizarre idea. This trilogy really needed some continuity in scripwriting rather than giving a director the opportunity to do anything!
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jan 6, 2018 14:21:02 GMT
Worth a shot, but least it solidified how you felt "My arms, my legs, my everything". Ive just got visions of you cannonballing the cinema screen now lol
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Post by sherlock on Jan 6, 2018 16:41:12 GMT
Saw it for a second time today and enjoyed it more than the first time. Had my dad with me this time (a long time Star Wars fan) and he liked it too, though did seemed annoyed at the lack of clarification about Snoke. We agreed it was too long though.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 23:19:17 GMT
*Spoilers* While I thought The Last Jedi was better than The Force Awakens or Rogue One, that's faint praise since I thought the two previous films were poor. I find a lot of the ideas in this new trilogy hard to swallow. Han Solo as a dead beat dad undoes his lovely character arc in the original trilogy that goes from scoundrel to responsible hero. Luke Skywalker considered murdering his sleeping nephew. What? In what universe does that match the character that we got to know, and see progress from whiny kid to self sacrificing knight, in the original films? I get that things happen in life, good things but bad things too, and those things change how you see the world. But when Luke tells Leia that he can't save Ben I honestly couldn't even recognize that I was watching a Star Wars film about Luke Skywalker. This is the Jedi Knight who redeemed his father, Darth Vader, who let's face it, did much worse things on screen than what we've seen Ben Solo do. Anakin Skywalker is a mass murderer of children. However, Luke still found the good in him and that's a big part of the message of hope in the original trilogy. With Ben, I'm not even sure what he ever did that was so much more terrible than what Anakin did that Luke can't see any path toward redeeming another member of his family who clearly, badly, needs his uncle's help. There's a lot in this film that I thought was just messy film-making, too, such as the Finn plot that leaked all of the dramatic tension of the chase portion of the film out by both slowing the pacing to a crawl in the second act, and by reminding us that the chase can't possibly be all that frantic because Finn and Grace have the time to slip away and go rescue some horses. Their goal was a bit vague anyway, but they end up accomplishing nothing plot wise. I felt that Finn was not all that useful of a character in The Force Awakens and in this film he felt especially pointless to me. I thought at the end when he was prepared to sacrifice himself to stop the advance of the First Order super weapon, that at least he could have a death that meant something, but that didn't happen either. I felt that the film did make some effort to move forward with the franchise, but it did so while still falling into the same trap that The Force Awakens did. It put a new coat of paint on some very familiar tropes, ideas, scenes, and plot points that the franchise seems reluctant to truly move on from. Every time I thought the film might finally be taking a bold step forward with the story, such as the moment when Kylo invites Rey to let the old things die and make something new with him, the film back-peddled and put all of its toys back where it found them. At the end of the film I honestly didn't care where the story went next or what would happen to the characters or the galaxy. Part of that is the film failing to involve me in its drama, but part of it may also be the knowledge that nothing will ever be solved in the Star Wars universe. There will always be another Death Star, another evil empire, another Sith Lord, and another rebellion. Even if the rebellion succeeds in overthrowing a Sith Lord and his evil empire, a new Sith Lord and evil empire will immediately take its place with no explanation and all of the progress made from one trilogy to the next will be erased. My problem with that is not really because of the cyclical nature of the Star Wars mythos, it's because I can't quite forget that there's always a new Disney-produced Star Wars film coming at us every year for the rest of our lives. Star Wars just doesn't feel special anymore. With franchises, I find myself taking a longer look at them as I grow older and more installments are produced. I first noticed it with the Die Hard films. When the fifth film came out and I had a really negative reaction to it, I looked back on that film series and realized that since I only really care for the first and third films, and never find myself rewatching the second, fourth, or fifth films, I no longer felt like I was actually a fan of the franchise, I just like a couple of Bruce Willis movies. The same thing has happened with several other franchises. I used to think of myself as a fan of The Incredible Hulk because I love the classic Bill Bixby series so much, but I realized that I don't actually care for the vast majority of the character's other appearances in various media. I had to take a step back and realize that I'm not actually a fan of the character, I'm a fan of a particular show the character was in. Star Wars has become the same for me now. I used to be a MASSIVE Star Wars fan, but years and years of movies that I don't care for at all have caused me to realize, I'm really just a fan of the original trilogy. I'm more a hypothetical Star Wars fan. I like the idea of a good Star Wars movie, but it's been a long time since I've seen one and I don't have a lot of hope for seeing one again anytime soon. I don't think the intention is that Han was a deadbeat Dad, though. We don't know what Han's childhood was like, but it was hardly conventional we do know he was always going to struggle as a Father, in addition to being a surrivor of the war. Leia defiantly did try, but she had to rebuild the Republic. . Han and Leia's marriage was never going to be perfect, either. And you better believe Han one hundred percent tried. I think Han probably was a good Dad (with Leia smoothing over the edges), but he couldn't stop Ben from becoming what he became. If Snoke hadn't manipulated Ben, Ben would just be an adult who needed to talk things out one day with his parents one day. Luke's gentleness has always been a huge part of his character and part of his struggle, though. And seeing him cut himself off and reprimand himself over a completely understandable reaction was heartbreaking. I'm not saying Luke wouldn't have tried to save Ben or even have killed him out of ugly necessity eventually, but the horrible thing is that we know that Luke was NEVER going to strike down Ben in anger. But Luke doesn't. And looking to Leia for her forgiviness and for her strength actually brought tears to my eyes and spoke so much of the years unseen between them. Poe's plotline but it felt like a natural progression for his character for me. He's still a young gun learning the ropes and has the capacity to be a great general.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 23:37:05 GMT
I’ve always felt like Rey was connected to Kenobi in some way. I loved the idea of a Kenobi returning the lightsaber to Luke and hoping that he would train her. It made sense to me in a very George Lucas kind of way. Eh, I think she's just an original character. I think it's more important to the little girls watching her.
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