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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2020 11:09:46 GMT
Thanks. I've been trying to think of a good analogy for continuity for a while and I think you've just help me strike on it. It's like a mechanical puzzle. Ornately decorated. Intricately constructed. The sort of thing that draws a person's eye to where it's stored on the shelf. There's a real sense of satisfaction to pulling it apart and putting it back together again. That click as everything falls into place and "Aha", there it is. But sometimes, just as equally, it's nice just to look at it. There's a craftsmanship to its components and to its whole. Absolutely, I don't think I could have put it better myself and I think that is actually my own attitude towards continuity. Sometimes I am very interested with how it all slots in, sometimes I can just enjoy it because I enjoy it. I am a fan of both Doctor Who and Star Wars and I find it interesting how different their approaches to the expanded universe are. Big Finish, for example, do a lot of what we might call "fanjodrell", as in character X meeting character Y, but don't do continuity as much, as in making sure everything links together. Don't get me wrong, they have done it before, and I think the consensus is that it's their main thing, but I'd argue it isn't their MO. Star Wars, on the other hand, seems to let its placement drive what expanded universe it creates. Their recent runs of Darth Vader comics were made explicitly to see Vader during the events between A New Hope (or Star Wars) & Empire Strikes back, or another that is directly following Revenge of the Sith. Indeed, they recently began a run of Vader immediately after ESB. In contrast, I am intrigued to see where they go with their High Republic era spanning different mediums. I hope I explained Oh, you did, absolutely. Star Wars has that tiered system, doesn't it? A-Canon, B-Canon and so forth; at least for the Legends stories, right? I think Star Wars is a particularly interesting franchise to explore decade-by-decade because there were such markedly different interpretations of its universe from film-to-film. The characters themselves change quite dramatically over what's a comparatively short period of time. In contrast, the Doctor does have incarnations with narrative arcs, but is, for the most part, static across a fair number of his lives. It's the universe around him that tends to warp and wend its way over the years. He's not going out to make history, per se, but just enjoy it for what it is. I find I tend to gravitate more towards incarnations with that more explicit introspection and development. It can be small, like, I love how we can have an entire short story about someone stealing the Sixth Doctor's coat and why it's so important that he get it back. That's a nice glimpse into his psyche. It can also be big, the Third Doctor ruminating on his own hubris and choosing to face that which he fears most for his own betterment as well as that of others. To have those options in a character is really quite great.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Apr 10, 2020 11:50:59 GMT
Absolutely, I don't think I could have put it better myself and I think that is actually my own attitude towards continuity. Sometimes I am very interested with how it all slots in, sometimes I can just enjoy it because I enjoy it. I am a fan of both Doctor Who and Star Wars and I find it interesting how different their approaches to the expanded universe are. Big Finish, for example, do a lot of what we might call "fanjodrell", as in character X meeting character Y, but don't do continuity as much, as in making sure everything links together. Don't get me wrong, they have done it before, and I think the consensus is that it's their main thing, but I'd argue it isn't their MO. Star Wars, on the other hand, seems to let its placement drive what expanded universe it creates. Their recent runs of Darth Vader comics were made explicitly to see Vader during the events between A New Hope (or Star Wars) & Empire Strikes back, or another that is directly following Revenge of the Sith. Indeed, they recently began a run of Vader immediately after ESB. In contrast, I am intrigued to see where they go with their High Republic era spanning different mediums. I hope I explained Oh, you did, absolutely. Star Wars has that tiered system, doesn't it? A-Canon, B-Canon and so forth; at least for the Legends stories, right? I think Star Wars is a particularly interesting franchise to explore decade-by-decade because there were such markedly different interpretations of its universe from film-to-film. The characters themselves change quite dramatically over what's a comparatively short period of time. In contrast, the Doctor does have incarnations with narrative arcs, but is, for the most part, static across a fair number of his lives. It's the universe around him that tends to warp and wend its way over the years. He's not going out to make history, per se, but just enjoy it for what it is. I find I tend to gravitate more towards incarnations with that more explicit introspection and development. It can be small, like, I love how we can have an entire short story about someone stealing the Sixth Doctor's coat and why it's so important that he get it back. That's a nice glimpse into his psyche. It can also be big, the Third Doctor ruminating on his own hubris and choosing to face that which he fears most for his own betterment as well as that of others. To have those options in a character is really quite great. Yeah Legends had the tiered system, but I think now the rule is that everything released since Disney took over is canon (including EU material) plus obviously the original six movies, Clone Wars and Rebels. So basically all pre-Disney EU material is now “legends” and not really canon until they reintroduce it. I think it’s best to just not take canon and continuity too seriously, but then I do find how it all fits together rather fascinating. I think some people don’t understand that and think people are obsessed with continuity or that it’s a vital part of their experience when really it’s more of a fun extra. Some people enjoy discussing it, others don’t.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2020 12:33:21 GMT
Oh, you did, absolutely. Star Wars has that tiered system, doesn't it? A-Canon, B-Canon and so forth; at least for the Legends stories, right? I think Star Wars is a particularly interesting franchise to explore decade-by-decade because there were such markedly different interpretations of its universe from film-to-film. The characters themselves change quite dramatically over what's a comparatively short period of time. In contrast, the Doctor does have incarnations with narrative arcs, but is, for the most part, static across a fair number of his lives. It's the universe around him that tends to warp and wend its way over the years. He's not going out to make history, per se, but just enjoy it for what it is. I find I tend to gravitate more towards incarnations with that more explicit introspection and development. It can be small, like, I love how we can have an entire short story about someone stealing the Sixth Doctor's coat and why it's so important that he get it back. That's a nice glimpse into his psyche. It can also be big, the Third Doctor ruminating on his own hubris and choosing to face that which he fears most for his own betterment as well as that of others. To have those options in a character is really quite great. Yeah Legends had the tiered system, but I think now the rule is that everything released since Disney took over is canon (including EU material) plus obviously the original six movies, Clone Wars and Rebels. So basically all pre-Disney EU material is now “legends” and not really canon until they reintroduce it. I think it’s best to just not take canon and continuity too seriously, but then I do find how it all fits together rather fascinating. I think some people don’t understand that and think people are obsessed with continuity or that it’s a vital part of their experience when really it’s more of a fun extra. Some people enjoy discussing it, others don’t. Yeah, like any hobby. The thing I really like as a writer is that a continuity reference is essentially one writer tipping their hat to another and saying: Yet to be forgotten. That can be across months, years, decades, whole centuries. Across novels to audios to comics and all the way back again. It's a nice avenue of saying that we care about one another's work and what it's brought to the table.
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Post by Digi on Apr 11, 2020 15:11:03 GMT
I don't tend to worry about the War Doctor and how he fits in, I just know that I think he's a brilliant creation and I lap up any stories with him, but I like the idea of this. It's always slightly baffled me that the Doctor's fear behind the door in The God Complex ended up being the crack in time and not the War Doctor. The above suggestion resolves that.
Honestly i always felt that The Valeyard was in the Doctor's Fear behind the door the notion that he would go too far and become his own worst fear i think since Matt Smith announced his departure from the show Moffatt had to hastly rewritten alot of stuff and stuff Time of the doctor with all the plot threads
which explains why the story itself felt rushed
Matt Smith’s departure announcement had little to do with it, but there were a mountain of production problems which would easily explain any feelings of things being rushed. Neither Matt nor Jenna were under contract. He’d talked David into appearing, but didn’t have a script (even as the BBC was banging down his door asking where it was). He’d 75% talked Chris Eccleston into appearing, but then he declined. It’s a small miracle The Day of the Doctor happened at all.
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Post by ollychops on Apr 11, 2020 18:47:31 GMT
Honestly i always felt that The Valeyard was in the Doctor's Fear behind the door the notion that he would go too far and become his own worst fear i think since Matt Smith announced his departure from the show Moffatt had to hastly rewritten alot of stuff and stuff Time of the doctor with all the plot threads
which explains why the story itself felt rushed
Matt Smith’s departure announcement had little to do with it, but there were a mountain of production problems which would easily explain any feelings of things being rushed. Neither Matt nor Jenna were under contract. He’d talked David into appearing, but didn’t have a script (even as the BBC was banging down his door asking where it was). He’d 75% talked Chris Eccleston into appearing, but then he declined. It’s a small miracle The Day of the Doctor happened at all. I thought Jenna was under contract? From what I recall, she was the only one, so Moffat had to brainstorm how he’d pull off an anniversary special with just Clara if it came down to that.
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Post by Digi on Apr 11, 2020 19:26:39 GMT
Matt Smith’s departure announcement had little to do with it, but there were a mountain of production problems which would easily explain any feelings of things being rushed. Neither Matt nor Jenna were under contract. He’d talked David into appearing, but didn’t have a script (even as the BBC was banging down his door asking where it was). He’d 75% talked Chris Eccleston into appearing, but then he declined. It’s a small miracle The Day of the Doctor happened at all. I thought Jenna was under contract? From what I recall, she was the only one, so Moffat had to brainstorm how he’d pull off an anniversary special with just Clara if it came down to that. You are correct, Jenna was indeed under contract. I was misremembering a bit from this interview: www.radiotimes.com/news/2015-11-23/steven-moffat-finally-reveals-why-john-hurt-replaced-christopher-eccleston-in-the-doctor-who-50th-anniversary-special/
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Post by sherlock on Apr 16, 2020 11:49:00 GMT
Susan’s War update. Now I haven’t heard it myself, and am unsure if I’ll be buying it atm, but based on synopsis and cast list.
Rasmus is played by Damian Lynch, who also played him in pre-War stories in Ravenous 3 and Dark Universe. The cast list for Eighth Doctor: Time War 4 features Rasmus being played by Chris Jarman. I assume the intent will be is at some point between the two Rasmus regenerates.
The synopsis for Assets of War mentions the Orrovix, who were introduced in Time War: Nevernor.
So I’ve put Susan’s War in its own act (plus All Hands on Deck) between The Exiles (aka Gallifrey: Time War 3) and The Good Man (aka Eighth Doctor: Time War).
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Apr 16, 2020 12:04:48 GMT
Susan’s War update. Now I haven’t heard it myself, and am unsure if I’ll be buying it atm, but based on synopsis and cast list. Rasmus is played by Damian Lynch, who also played him in pre-War stories in Ravenous 3 and Dark Universe. The cast list for Eighth Doctor: Time War 4 features Rasmus being played by Chris Jarman. I assume the intent will be is at some point between the two Rasmus regenerates. The synopsis for Assets of War mentions the Orrovix, who were introduced in Time War: Nevernor.So I’ve put Susan’s War in its own act (plus All Hands on Deck) between The Exiles (aka Gallifrey: Time War 3) and The Good Man (aka Eighth Doctor: Time War). Bear in mind that Time War 4 is set in an alternate timeline where the War has ended.
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Post by sherlock on Apr 16, 2020 12:09:05 GMT
Susan’s War update. Now I haven’t heard it myself, and am unsure if I’ll be buying it atm, but based on synopsis and cast list. Rasmus is played by Damian Lynch, who also played him in pre-War stories in Ravenous 3 and Dark Universe. The cast list for Eighth Doctor: Time War 4 features Rasmus being played by Chris Jarman. I assume the intent will be is at some point between the two Rasmus regenerates. The synopsis for Assets of War mentions the Orrovix, who were introduced in Time War: Nevernor.So I’ve put Susan’s War in its own act (plus All Hands on Deck) between The Exiles (aka Gallifrey: Time War 3) and The Good Man (aka Eighth Doctor: Time War). Bear in mind that Time War 4 is set in an alternate timeline where the War has ended. True, but until we get confirmation of what exactly that has changed I’m assuming they’ve just giving Rasmus the same treatment as Tamasan with off-screen regenerations to suggest he was killed in a battle (prior to the end of the War). This is all subject to change when Time War 4 is released.
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dorney
Big Finish Creative Team
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Post by dorney on Apr 16, 2020 12:23:34 GMT
notthebigfinishforum.freeforums.net/post/241873So this post by Dorney in lost stories thread clarifies the intent is that Starship of Theseus is the Doctor’s first encounter with the War, but in such a way it becomes not his first encounter (that’s a time war for you). Difficult to truly reflect this in a listening order, so gonna stick with the compromise I’ve got at the moment where it’s the opener to it’s own act and serves as a mid-way glimpse at what the Doctor’s life would have been if not for the War. Not quite - I think it probably is still his first encounter, but if people do really insist on having other stories before it (and I’ve no idea why they do!) the Time War can probably make it work.
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dorney
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Post by dorney on Apr 16, 2020 12:26:29 GMT
Susan’s War update. Now I haven’t heard it myself, and am unsure if I’ll be buying it atm, but based on synopsis and cast list. Rasmus is played by Damian Lynch, who also played him in pre-War stories in Ravenous 3 and Dark Universe. The cast list for Eighth Doctor: Time War 4 features Rasmus being played by Chris Jarman. I assume the intent will be is at some point between the two Rasmus regenerates. The synopsis for Assets of War mentions the Orrovix, who were introduced in Time War: Nevernor.So I’ve put Susan’s War in its own act (plus All Hands on Deck) between The Exiles (aka Gallifrey: Time War 3) and The Good Man (aka Eighth Doctor: Time War). Bear in mind that Time War 4 is set in an alternate timeline where the War has ended. Well, I’d probably wait to hear it. That isn’t entirely accurate.
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Post by mark687 on Apr 16, 2020 12:40:27 GMT
Susan’s War update. Now I haven’t heard it myself, and am unsure if I’ll be buying it atm, but based on synopsis and cast list. Rasmus is played by Damian Lynch, who also played him in pre-War stories in Ravenous 3 and Dark Universe. The cast list for Eighth Doctor: Time War 4 features Rasmus being played by Chris Jarman. I assume the intent will be is at some point between the two Rasmus regenerates. The synopsis for Assets of War mentions the Orrovix, who were introduced in Time War: Nevernor.So I’ve put Susan’s War in its own act (plus All Hands on Deck) between The Exiles (aka Gallifrey: Time War 3) and The Good Man (aka Eighth Doctor: Time War). Bear in mind that Time War 4 is set in an alternate timeline where the War has ended. I Suspect only part of it will be. Regards mark687
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Post by Digi on Apr 16, 2020 12:46:11 GMT
notthebigfinishforum.freeforums.net/post/241873So this post by Dorney in lost stories thread clarifies the intent is that Starship of Theseus is the Doctor’s first encounter with the War, but in such a way it becomes not his first encounter (that’s a time war for you). Difficult to truly reflect this in a listening order, so gonna stick with the compromise I’ve got at the moment where it’s the opener to it’s own act and serves as a mid-way glimpse at what the Doctor’s life would have been if not for the War. Not quite - I think it probably is still his first encounter, but if people do really insist on having other stories before it (and I’ve no idea why they do!) the Time War can probably make it work. I think it's a matter of it being difficult to reconcile certain surrounding stories with Starship of Theseus, since SoT features McGann living his life up to the Theseus with no War, and then having his life rewritten while he's still on the Theseus that it's been going on for a while but he's on the sidelines helping people -- a decision we 'saw' him make in Museum Peace, which then doesn't fit into SoT neatly. Knowing full well that it damages the intended flow of SoT's story, in my head I reconcile it as: - 'Starship of Theseus' in the original timeline - 'Gallifrey: Celestial Intervention' happens, the war begins, call to arms goes out to all Time Lords - Original timeline overwritten by a new timeline - New timeline: The Doctor agonizes over whether to go to war in 'Museum Peace' and ultimately decides to stay on the sidelines - New timeline: Off-screen, the Doctor arrives on refugee ship Theseus, to help people on the sidelines of the War - New timeline: 'Starship of Theseus' after the timeline reset It's messy to be sure, but it is a war in time, it's not too difficult to handwave away problems and contrive solutions Clarification Edit: And uh, to be clear, this is in no way meant as a dig at Starship of Theseus. It's a good story to sit down and enjoy end to end. I just also enjoy doing mental gymnastics to try to line up timelines/canon/etc
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Post by mark687 on Apr 16, 2020 12:46:38 GMT
Susan’s War update. Now I haven’t heard it myself, and am unsure if I’ll be buying it atm, but based on synopsis and cast list. Rasmus is played by Damian Lynch, who also played him in pre-War stories in Ravenous 3 and Dark Universe. The cast list for Eighth Doctor: Time War 4 features Rasmus being played by Chris Jarman. I assume the intent will be is at some point between the two Rasmus regenerates. The synopsis for Assets of War mentions the Orrovix, who were introduced in Time War: Nevernor.So I’ve put Susan’s War in its own act (plus All Hands on Deck) between The Exiles (aka Gallifrey: Time War 3) and The Good Man (aka Eighth Doctor: Time War). That might be pretty much correct Regards mark687
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Post by sherlock on Apr 16, 2020 17:34:30 GMT
Not quite - I think it probably is still his first encounter, but if people do really insist on having other stories before it (and I’ve no idea why they do!) the Time War can probably make it work. I think it's a matter of it being difficult to reconcile certain surrounding stories with Starship of Theseus, since SoT features McGann living his life up to the Theseus with no War, and then having his life rewritten while he's still on the Theseus that it's been going on for a while but he's on the sidelines helping people -- a decision we 'saw' him make in Museum Peace, which then doesn't fit into SoT neatly. Knowing full well that it damages the intended flow of SoT's story, in my head I reconcile it as: - 'Starship of Theseus' in the original timeline - 'Gallifrey: Celestial Intervention' happens, the war begins, call to arms goes out to all Time Lords - Original timeline overwritten by a new timeline - New timeline: The Doctor agonizes over whether to go to war in 'Museum Peace' and ultimately decides to stay on the sidelines - New timeline: Off-screen, the Doctor arrives on refugee ship Theseus, to help people on the sidelines of the War - New timeline: 'Starship of Theseus' after the timeline reset It's messy to be sure, but it is a war in time, it's not too difficult to handwave away problems and contrive solutions Clarification Edit: And uh, to be clear, this is in no way meant as a dig at Starship of Theseus. It's a good story to sit down and enjoy end to end. I just also enjoy doing mental gymnastics to try to line up timelines/canon/etc I guess we can maintain the intent of Starship being his first encounter, by only putting the short stories where Eight is nowhere near a warzone prior to it. So with that mind I might shuffle The Rulers of the Universe, The Sontaran Ordeal, and Day of the Vashta Nerada to later in the order. As they all depict or imply the Doctor having had direct contact with the War in some way.
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Post by Digi on Apr 16, 2020 17:47:59 GMT
Well I don't mean to tell you you should shift your order around, that's just me saying how I resolve it in my own head
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Apr 16, 2020 18:30:55 GMT
Unless I’ve very much misconstrued something, I think Assets of War is actually a prequel to Nevernor.
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Post by nitronine on Apr 16, 2020 18:42:48 GMT
I might be wrong but I think the reason some stories are placed before SoT for the Doctor is because SoT seems to be set quite a while after the war has started for the rest of the universe, but can't it still be the 8th Doctor's first encounter with the war and all the 8th Doctor stories set earlier in the war are later for the Doctor?
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Post by sherlock on Apr 16, 2020 21:21:18 GMT
I might be wrong but I think the reason some stories are placed before SoT for the Doctor is because SoT seems to be set quite a while after the war has started for the rest of the universe, but can't it still be the 8th Doctor's first encounter with the war and all the 8th Doctor stories set earlier in the war are later for the Doctor? It could be. For example, it’s entirely possible that the Eighth Doctor in Rage of the Time Lords is actually post-Eighth Doctor: Time War, even though for the Master and the Time Lords involved it’s still in the early days pre- The Devil You Know. Another example, it’s possible the Time Lords that pick up Susan in All Hands on Deck could be from an earlier point in the War than her (somewhat battered-looking) grandfather. Its a Time War, so everyone’s chronology being lined up kinda goes out of the window. It does rather complicate trying to determine a listening order, though tbh I do enjoy trying to resolve complicated continuity clashes.
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Post by sherlock on Apr 16, 2020 21:25:35 GMT
Unless I’ve very much misconstrued something, I think Assets of War is actually a prequel to Nevernor. Well that opens things up quite considerably. I guess that Susan’s War could go almost anywhere prior to Nevernor then. I might move it to in-between the main bulk of Only The Good and Gallifrey: Time War 3, just to keep it in a relatively later stage of the War.
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