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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2018 4:53:01 GMT
Why no tie-in in the Twelfth Doctor era to The Day of The Doctor? Did Moffatt decide to leave the placement ambigious for fans to decide? I enjoyed World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls and Twice Upon A Time, but the era does feel incomplete without it. Here's hoping The Day of The Doctor novelisation will shed some light
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2018 6:59:02 GMT
Well, because there's no need. We don't know where Docs 1-9 came from in their timelines either and not knowing for the 12th makes exactly the same difference - none whatsoever. It would feel incredibly tacked on to revisit this in Series 10, especially during World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls and Twice Upon A Time if you're suggesting it should have been done there. There was plenty enough to be getting on with in those.
It would be fan service with no purpose. In the "current" timeline of Capaldi's Doctor post-Clara, he's running away from Gallifrey again. Calling back to an Easter Egg designed to just give us all a "woo!" moment for the 50th would alienate anyone but the box-tickers who need timelines to be filled.
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Apr 1, 2018 7:28:50 GMT
Well, because there's no need. We don't know where Docs 1-9 came from in their timelines either and not knowing for the 12th makes exactly the same difference - none whatsoever. It would feel incredibly tacked on to revisit this in Series 10, especially during World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls and Twice Upon A Time if you're suggesting it should have been done there. There was plenty enough to be getting on with in those. It would be fan service with no purpose. In the "current" timeline of Capaldi's Doctor post-Clara, he's running away from Gallifrey again. Calling back to an Easter Egg designed to just give us all a "woo!" moment for the 50th would alienate anyone but the box-tickers who need timelines to be filled. Exactly. I've never understood why people felt it was anything more than "Oh, hey, we've already hired Capaldi, why not give him a cameo?"
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2018 8:07:32 GMT
Well, because there's no need. We don't know where Docs 1-9 came from in their timelines either and not knowing for the 12th makes exactly the same difference - none whatsoever. It would feel incredibly tacked on to revisit this in Series 10, especially during World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls and Twice Upon A Time if you're suggesting it should have been done there. There was plenty enough to be getting on with in those. It would be fan service with no purpose. In the "current" timeline of Capaldi's Doctor post-Clara, he's running away from Gallifrey again. Calling back to an Easter Egg designed to just give us all a "woo!" moment for the 50th would alienate anyone but the box-tickers who need timelines to be filled. Disagree. By many, it was perceived as a deliberate look to the future and our first introduction to Twelve. It's a question which has popped not just in fan circles, but with general viewers. If that was the intent, then it was misguided to do in a BIG anniversary episode of one of the most popular television shows on the planet showcasing the next actor in the main role. Details might slip with general viewers, but not all of them, particularly bigger details like this when their involved in establishing a character. And involving Galifery in Twelve's story does no-one any favours, either. Wasn't suggesting it be done in World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls and Twice Upon A Time, but SOMEWHERE would have been nice. Really hoping The Day of The Doctor novelisation covers it at least.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2018 8:28:51 GMT
I've never hear one fan who wasn't already deeply into the show even remotely interested in expanding that cameo into a full story. I suspect - like NightwingFan and myself- a lot of dieheards don't care that much either.
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Post by sherlock on Apr 1, 2018 10:04:35 GMT
There is simply no need. I suspect the cameo was only ever a cheeky nod at what was to come, and it would be a bit cruel to have Capaldi, a long-time fan, appear one episode short of the 50th anniversary. We don't get the answer to everything and that's fine.
If you need to place it anywhere it has to take place during Deep Breath as the light from the console is blue, so it must be before his redecoration that debuts at the end of Deep Breath.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
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Post by shutupbanks on Apr 1, 2018 10:55:04 GMT
There is simply no need. I suspect the cameo was only ever a cheeky nod at what was to come, and it would be a bit cruel to have Capaldi, a long-time fan, appear one episode short of the 50th anniversary. We don't get the answer to everything and that's fine. If you need to place it anywhere it has to take place during Deep Breath as the light from the console is blue, so it must be before his redecoration that debuts at the end of Deep Breath. We never found out where 1, 2 and 3 were before the events of The Five Doctors either: we know that they were between adventures but not which ones: I'm happy to accept that the Doctor has a life outside my tv screen that I don't experience. I mean, we never saw the story where Isaac Newton told the Doctor to get out of his tree and we're happy to accept that as canon.
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Post by thethirddoctor on Apr 1, 2018 11:02:29 GMT
Like many of Moffats plotholes, he couldn't be bothered explaining it.
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Post by mark687 on Apr 1, 2018 11:51:36 GMT
If your talking the "Attack Eyebrows" secne Moffatt stated at a couple of conventions that from 12th's POV its supposed to be between leaving River at the end of Husbands and meeting young Garth in Doctor Mysterio.
Regards
mark687
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Post by shallacatop on Apr 1, 2018 12:13:35 GMT
The Day of the Doctor novelisation might have a bit more of a detailed leadup to it, but I don’t think it was something that needed to be seen on screen. It’s not a plot hole, it’s just a fun cameo. I suspect that it was originally written in the script with the intention of it being the actual reveal of Peter Capaldi as the Twelfth Doctor, but Matt’s departure was leaked way earlier than intended, so the live announcement was made instead.
That said, I feel as though there’s two placements for such a scene based on what we see on screen. One is at the very beginning of the Twelfth Doctor’s tenure in Deep Breath, just before the T-Rex incident, or when he goes AWOL at the end of the story. The other is during The Doctor Falls, when the TARDIS started flashing blue in the Doctor’s final moments and then proceeds to fiddle about with the controls and tells the Doctor to wait.
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Post by constonks on Apr 1, 2018 14:48:23 GMT
There is simply no need. I suspect the cameo was only ever a cheeky nod at what was to come, and it would be a bit cruel to have Capaldi, a long-time fan, appear one episode short of the 50th anniversary. We don't get the answer to everything and that's fine. If you need to place it anywhere it has to take place during Deep Breath as the light from the console is blue, so it must be before his redecoration that debuts at the end of Deep Breath. Yeah, it's part of his journey alone. I'm fine with that. If they'd thrown it in any later, I'd have been peeved the light was different! Because that's just the kind of pedant I am.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Apr 1, 2018 14:53:30 GMT
Like many of Moffats plotholes, he couldn't be bothered explaining it. Beyond creating a huge "squee" moment for fandom, how is it a plot hole? It's a gap more than anything else.
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Post by thethirddoctor on Apr 1, 2018 15:12:15 GMT
Like many of Moffats plotholes, he couldn't be bothered explaining it. Beyond creating a huge "squee" moment for fandom, how is it a plot hole? It's a gap more than anything else. And, where does that gap come into Capaldis tenure?
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Apr 1, 2018 15:17:54 GMT
Beyond creating a huge "squee" moment for fandom, how is it a plot hole? It's a gap more than anything else. And, where does that gap come into Capaldis tenure? I mentioned above that we didn't know where the first, second and third Doctors insertion into The Five Doctors comes from and it doesn't interfere with our enjoyment of that story. I don't care whereabouts in Capaldi's run it comes from: it doesn't affect my enjoyment of him showing up in DOTD at all. It would be nice to know but it doesn't affect the story.
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Post by thethirddoctor on Apr 1, 2018 15:22:46 GMT
And, where does that gap come into Capaldis tenure? I mentioned above that we didn't know where the first, second and third Doctors insertion into The Five Doctors comes from and it doesn't interfere with our enjoyment of that story. I don't care whereabouts in Capaldi's run it comes from: it doesn't affect my enjoyment of him showing up in DOTD at all. It would be nice to know but it doesn't affect the story. LOL! After you went "squee" didn't you ask yourself "How did that happen"? or "Where will this fit in with a FUTURE episode"? (Everyone else did) It would have been so easy to have done a scene with Capaldi explaining how he ended up helping his past selves, but Moffat decided not to. "Plot hole" or "gap" it was lazy writing.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2018 16:57:32 GMT
Like many of Moffats plotholes, he couldn't be bothered explaining it. Its not a plothole.
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Post by mrperson on Apr 1, 2018 17:20:40 GMT
Like many of Moffats plotholes, he couldn't be bothered explaining it. Well, no. The explanation is apparent enough in the story: the Moment was able to bypass the time locks put up during the time war. Hence, 8.5,10, and 11, could appear on time-locked Gallifrey together, and later, 1-12 could fly their TARDISes around Gallifrey just before the Daleks broke through the last defenses. In other words, the reason why 1-11 could be there is no different than the reason 12 could, too. The Moment is helping gather all past or future incarnations. That Capaldi was yet to be a Doctor from the audience's perspective is irrelevant if we're asking whether the episode makes internal sense (which is always what one is asking when one wonders whether something is a "plot hole"). It would only be a "plot hole" if Capaldi's appearance caused the episode's internal logic to fail.
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Post by mrperson on Apr 1, 2018 17:29:34 GMT
I mentioned above that we didn't know where the first, second and third Doctors insertion into The Five Doctors comes from and it doesn't interfere with our enjoyment of that story. I don't care whereabouts in Capaldi's run it comes from: it doesn't affect my enjoyment of him showing up in DOTD at all. It would be nice to know but it doesn't affect the story. LOL! After you went "squee" didn't you ask yourself "How did that happen"? or "Where will this fit in with a FUTURE episode"? (Everyone else did) No, everyone else most certainly did not. Maybe some fans wanted to see it happen on screen in a future episode, but the failure to show it on screen in a future episode does not retroactively cause its happening in Day to be a "plot hole" that renders the internal logical of the episode faulty. The Doctor just had to aim his TARDIS at time-locked Gallifrey at some point, and interact with his prior selves in the same way he remembered he did. As long as that happened, you don't have any inconsistency in the internal logic of the episode/show. You don't need to see it happen, and it doesn't need to happen on Day 1 of incarnation 12 vs. Day 100,000. As long as 12 didn't somehow accidentally alter events he'd already experienced in incarnations 1-11, there's no logical problem, no plot hole. The fact that a fan never saw it happen =/= a plot hole.
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Post by mrperson on Apr 1, 2018 17:30:21 GMT
Hold on a sec. Things that make sense happening off-screen as "plot holes"? This exchange reminds me of another poster. In case I'm wrong, here's a good basic definition of a plot hole: "In fiction, a plot hole, plothole or plot error is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot. Such inconsistencies include such things as illogical or impossible events, and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline. While many stories have unanswered questions, unlikely events or chance occurrences, a plot hole is one that is essential to the story's outcome. Plot holes are usually seen as weaknesses or flaws in a story."en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_holeIt's not something you don't see that happened off-screen. It's not something you don't like. It's not even a question one wants answered. It's a logical inconsistency that makes the story in which it occurs nonsensical. In no reasonable fashion can the absence of an explicit scene showing Capaldi decide that it was time to help himselves out at time-locked Gallifrey be said to cause Capaldi's appearance with his earlier selves around time-locked Gallifrey to retroactively create "plot hole" for Day of the Doctor. Since, as I've said, Day of the Doctor involved The Moment being able to bypass the time-locks and rules of time so as to allow incarnations 1-12 to appear together to save Gallifrey. It doesn't matter that we only see docs 8.5,9, and 10 make the decision. They all made the decision and The Moment helped them do it. All of which raises a question (but not a plot hole): So, umm... what happened to the Moment? In Time War 2.0 (or, more likely, X.0), the Moment is not detonated. After saving Gallifrey, War is in his TARDIS regenerating into 9. So the Moment is sitting, undetonated, in a crappy barn out on some dusty Gallifreyan plane, and Gallifrey is locked away. (Unless he smuggled it into his TARDIS off-screen before going to try to save Gallifrey, in case the plan failed).
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 1, 2018 17:30:59 GMT
Can we not just leave it to a future Big Finish story starring Capaldi? That'll work for me, not that I was bothered to begin with.
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