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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2018 8:48:10 GMT
A shame if it does. The Master will return but a post-Missy Master even existing is not a certainty. Moffatt has given future writers enough space to give us an unseen pre-Missy Master. Doubt there going down that route, though. Outside of a special appearance, the narrative can only go forwards. Yes. But we never saw Simms' Master regenerate into Missy. It was never categorically confirmed that one directly follows the other, even the characters themselves were unclear on this. This was done deliberately. So if we do have a post-Missy Master & somehow she survived what is really the only logical way the character can come to a finite end, & returns to their evil ways. Well it will all be a waste of time.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2018 8:51:13 GMT
None of that - however explains - despite being lonely and cut off from his people after his actions in Hell Bent, why The Doctor would be willing to offer Missy a chance at redemption after Adric. Yes, I get Missy is apparently willing to change, but still. I think it makes enough sense to me that The Doctor would soften his views toward a fellow Gallifreyan after going through that difficult period of thinking he was the only one of his kind left, and personally I'm probably very glad that The Doctor does manage to be surprisingly forgiving even after all the horrible things The Master has attempted. Yes I think despite what The Master has done The Doctor never gives up hope that the character can be redeemed. & that belief fits perfectly with the character of The Doctor. Fighting against overwhelming odds. The fact that he never knows that Missy has changed is the strongest part of her/their arc. He will never know.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2018 8:54:51 GMT
Doubt there going down that route, though. Outside of a special appearance, the narrative can only go forwards. Yes. But we never saw Simms' Master regenerate into Missy. It was never categorically confirmed that one directly follows the other, even the characters themselves were unclear on this. This was done deliberately. So if we do have a post-Missy Master & somehow she survived what is really the only logical way the character can come to a finite end, & returns to their evil ways. Well it will all be a waste of time. Eh, long running franchises have shakeups. After having The Doctor encounter one of her past, but unseen incarnations at play in traditional villain mode, Missy could easily return as a 'friend' to The Doctor, challenging his morality. Things that are seemingly set in stone don't have to be or fall back differently.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2018 8:57:32 GMT
I think it makes enough sense to me that The Doctor would soften his views toward a fellow Gallifreyan after going through that difficult period of thinking he was the only one of his kind left, and personally I'm probably very glad that The Doctor does manage to be surprisingly forgiving even after all the horrible things The Master has attempted. Yes I think despite what The Master has done The Doctor never gives up hope that the character can be redeemed. & that belief fits perfectly with the character of The Doctor. Fighting against overwhelming odds. The fact that he never knows that Missy has changed is the strongest part of her/their arc. He will never know. And that's all very well, but I just find it unreconciable with Earthshock and the impact Adric's death has had on The Doctor's life.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2018 9:06:05 GMT
Yes I think despite what The Master has done The Doctor never gives up hope that the character can be redeemed. & that belief fits perfectly with the character of The Doctor. Fighting against overwhelming odds. The fact that he never knows that Missy has changed is the strongest part of her/their arc. He will never know. And that's all very well, but I just find it unreconciable with Earthshock and the impact Adric's death has had on The Doctor's life. The events of Earthshock & Adric's death are nothing to do with The Master! So this doesn't have any impact on The Doctor's attempts to reach out to Missy.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2018 9:29:11 GMT
And that's all very well, but I just find it unreconciable with Earthshock and the impact Adric's death has had on The Doctor's life. The events of Earthshock & Adric's death are nothing to do with The Master! So this doesn't have any impact on The Doctor's attempts to reach out to Missy. Except it does. In Castravalva, The Master uses near-lethal force to coerce Adric, a teenager (relative to Susan's age) to create the block-transfer duplicate to program the TARDIS and to maintain Castravalva, a teenager and there's every implication that if Adric hadn't complied, he would have killed Adric. In Earthshock, Adric is killed trying to stop the plans of another old enemy, the Cybermen. For me, that VERY much changes things between them, however much The Doctor might want to otherwise and one of the reasons why Five is ready to let The Master die in Planet of Fire (where his actions would have lead to the death of millions, including children) .
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2018 9:41:50 GMT
The events of Earthshock & Adric's death are nothing to do with The Master! So this doesn't have any impact on The Doctor's attempts to reach out to Missy. Except it does. In Castravalva, The Master uses near-lethal force to coerce Adric, a teenager (relative to Susan's age) to create the block-transfer duplicate to program the TARDIS and to maintain Castravalva, a teenager and there's every implication that if Adric hadn't complied, he would have killed Adric. In Earthshock, Adric is killed trying to stop the plans of another old enemy, the Cybermen. For me, that VERY much changes things between them, however much The Doctor might want to otherwise and one of the reasons why Five is ready to let The Master die in Planet of Fire (where his actions would have lead to the death of millions, including children) .Maybe, but Adric did comply so we will never know if The Master would have killed Adric especially if he needed him to create the block-transfer duplicate program. Not sure how the actions of the Cybermen would impact on The Doctor's attitude towards The Master. As for the actions of 5. That was a long time ago & since then The Doctor has shown compassion towards The Master, for example when The Master dies in Last of the Time Lords & The Doctor begs him to regenerate despite what he has just done. All that he has done so recently & The Doctor still feels that he can redeem The Master!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2018 9:56:58 GMT
Except it does. In Castravalva, The Master uses near-lethal force to coerce Adric, a teenager (relative to Susan's age) to create the block-transfer duplicate to program the TARDIS and to maintain Castravalva, a teenager and there's every implication that if Adric hadn't complied, he would have killed Adric. In Earthshock, Adric is killed trying to stop the plans of another old enemy, the Cybermen. For me, that VERY much changes things between them, however much The Doctor might want to otherwise and one of the reasons why Five is ready to let The Master die in Planet of Fire (where his actions would have lead to the death of millions, including children) .Maybe, but Adric did comply so we will never know if The Master would have killed Adric especially if he needed him to create the block-transfer duplicate program. Not sure how the actions of the Cybermen would impact on The Doctor's attitude towards The Master. As for the actions of 5. That was a long time ago & since then The Doctor has shown compassion towards The Master, for example when The Master dies in Last of the Time Lords & The Doctor begs him to regenerate despite what he has just done. All that he has done so recently & The Doctor still feels that he can redeem The Master! Adric was a teenager who saw his brother die, witnessed The Master kill the Logopolians and feel no remorse when his machinations lead to the death of their entire race, saw entire galaxies blink out of existance and was unable to do anything about it and had just seen his adoptive Father figure -for all intents and purposes - die. Adric resisted and was then met with near-death levels of pain, I think there's every implication The Master would have killed him if he'd disobeyed, regardless of the outcome. Wings on a fly and all that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2018 10:02:05 GMT
Maybe, but Adric did comply so we will never know if The Master would have killed Adric especially if he needed him to create the block-transfer duplicate program. Not sure how the actions of the Cybermen would impact on The Doctor's attitude towards The Master. As for the actions of 5. That was a long time ago & since then The Doctor has shown compassion towards The Master, for example when The Master dies in Last of the Time Lords & The Doctor begs him to regenerate despite what he has just done. All that he has done so recently & The Doctor still feels that he can redeem The Master! Adric was a teenager who saw his brother die, witnessed The Master kill the Logopolians and feel no remorse when his machinations lead to the death of their entire race, saw entire galaxies blink out of existance and was unable to do anything about it and had just seen his adoptive Father figure -for all intents and purposes - die. Adric resisted and was then met with near-death levels of pain, I think there's every implication The Master would have killed him if he'd disobeyed, regardless of the outcome. Wings on a fly and all that. & look at all the things Davros has done, yet The Doctor still offered to save him at the end of Journey's End. The Doctor WILL ALWAYS try to find the good in his enemies & so his actions in respect of Missy & her redemptive arc is a natural & logical story development. & of course also taking into account that Missy is not only an enemy but a Time Lord like him. A close bond.
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Post by sherlock on Apr 21, 2018 10:08:30 GMT
Maybe, but Adric did comply so we will never know if The Master would have killed Adric especially if he needed him to create the block-transfer duplicate program. Not sure how the actions of the Cybermen would impact on The Doctor's attitude towards The Master. As for the actions of 5. That was a long time ago & since then The Doctor has shown compassion towards The Master, for example when The Master dies in Last of the Time Lords & The Doctor begs him to regenerate despite what he has just done. All that he has done so recently & The Doctor still feels that he can redeem The Master! Adric was a teenager who saw his brother die, witnessed The Master kill the Logopolians and feel no remorse when his machinations lead to the death of their entire race, saw entire galaxies blink out of existance and was unable to do anything about it and had just seen his adoptive Father figure -for all intents and purposes - die. Adric resisted and was then met with near-death levels of pain, I think there's every implication The Master would have killed him if he'd disobeyed, regardless of the outcome. Wings on a fly and all that. And by the twelfth Doctor's time this is quite literally centuries ago, and it didn't seem to have much of a lasting effect on Adric who seems back to rights by the end of Castrovalva. If it did have any impression on the Doctor's views on the Master then that came to a head in Planet of Fire (though it's unclear if there was anything the Doctor actually could have done to save the Master there) The Doctor's not naive to the horrible things the Master's done over the years. Even just Missy has killed (one of) Osgood and nearly tricked him into shooting Clara. But he still remembers the Master as the one child willing to be his friend, and such is always willing to try to get his friend back.
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Post by jasonward on Apr 21, 2018 11:13:19 GMT
None of that - however explains - despite being lonely and cut off from his people after his actions in Hell Bent, why The Doctor would be willing to offer Missy a chance at redemption after Adric. Yes, I get Missy is apparently willing to change, but still. I think it makes enough sense to me that The Doctor would soften his views toward a fellow Gallifreyan after going through that difficult period of thinking he was the only one of his kind left, and personally I'm probably very glad that The Doctor does manage to be surprisingly forgiving even after all the horrible things The Master has attempted. I think the Doctor capacity for forgiveness/understanding is perhaps unknowable by us, mere humans, I point at incidents like Clara betraying The Doctor, that he forgave Clara so instantly, so completely points to me, that The Doctor has a capacity for forgiveness beyond my own understanding.
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Post by newt5996 on Apr 21, 2018 15:54:04 GMT
I’d argue that the issue of your point comes with the fact that Moffat never clarified the motivations for Missy suddenly changing. On a similar note Moffat’s writing is why I don’t really like Missy as the intentional sexual tension she had with the Doctor and all the flirting was horrid Eh, that kind of came part of the package from the Simm Master, though. He was outright flirty with The Doctor at times in The Sound of The Drums/ Last of the Time Lords and acted like a jilted lover ("He's always messing with Earth girls") in The End of Time. For the record, I'm gay and apart from making jokes about that scene in The Sea Devil, I actually don't like the implication that The Master was in love with The Doctor? It always felt to me strictly platonic in the original series. (I don't mind writers gaying it up with the rest of Who) I didn't mention the Simm Master because it's been a while since I last saw his Davies era appearances and I didn't remember those lines and I agree that the Doctor and the Master should not be in any sort of a romantic relationship (I also don't think Time Lords should be in romantic relationships at all)
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Post by thethirddoctor on Apr 21, 2018 20:08:34 GMT
Just takes far too long!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2018 22:15:17 GMT
Eh, that kind of came part of the package from the Simm Master, though. He was outright flirty with The Doctor at times in The Sound of The Drums/ Last of the Time Lords and acted like a jilted lover ("He's always messing with Earth girls") in The End of Time. For the record, I'm gay and apart from making jokes about that scene in The Sea Devil, I actually don't like the implication that The Master was in love with The Doctor? It always felt to me strictly platonic in the original series. (I don't mind writers gaying it up with the rest of Who) I didn't mention the Simm Master because it's been a while since I last saw his Davies era appearances and I didn't remember those lines and I agree that the Doctor and the Master should not be in any sort of a romantic relationship (I also don't think Time Lords should be in romantic relationships at all) As much as Moffatt brought The Master back along more traditional lines, the previous revival stories are canon and impact The Master/Missy's development and incarnation. I think the stance Moffatt wants us to take is, yes, the drums happened, but there was always something dark in The Master beforehand that The Doctor was in denial about and he tried to help his friend afterwards and those feelings were amplified by the Time War. Pre-Rassilion interventions, everything played out the same. I'd argue pre- Lungbarrow the idea was already somewhat out there with The Doctor being a Grandfather (how like a human is he?)and The Green Death defiantly heavily implies that The Doctor was in love with Jo and she had feelings for him. How much we want to pull back the veil is a BIG question. Andred was a Galiferyian though and he fell in love with Leela, though. The Doctor and The Rani in the original series are defiantly positioned as ex-lovers, although Big Finish has kind of shifted away from that to establish The Rani on her own, rather then 'frustrated woman who couldn't keep her man'. (Kate O'Mara REALLY deserved better then that and she played to the strengths of the character as much as she could) Look, I wouldn't mind it if The Doctor's old boyfriend from the Academy or elsewhere ever turned up, that's all I'm saying
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2018 22:31:24 GMT
Adric was a teenager who saw his brother die, witnessed The Master kill the Logopolians and feel no remorse when his machinations lead to the death of their entire race, saw entire galaxies blink out of existance and was unable to do anything about it and had just seen his adoptive Father figure -for all intents and purposes - die. Adric resisted and was then met with near-death levels of pain, I think there's every implication The Master would have killed him if he'd disobeyed, regardless of the outcome. Wings on a fly and all that. And by the twelfth Doctor's time this is quite literally centuries ago, and it didn't seem to have much of a lasting effect on Adric who seems back to rights by the end of Castrovalva. Eh, that's the shift from adventure to series to drama, though. And it's not as if the revival or Big Finish haven't explored things in Who canon with more realistic reprecussions.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2018 2:46:25 GMT
Adric was a teenager who saw his brother die, witnessed The Master kill the Logopolians and feel no remorse when his machinations lead to the death of their entire race, saw entire galaxies blink out of existance and was unable to do anything about it and had just seen his adoptive Father figure -for all intents and purposes - die. Adric resisted and was then met with near-death levels of pain, I think there's every implication The Master would have killed him if he'd disobeyed, regardless of the outcome. Wings on a fly and all that. And by the twelfth Doctor's time this is quite literally centuries ago, and it didn't seem to have much of a lasting effect on Adric who seems back to rights by the end of Castrovalva. If it did have any impression on the Doctor's views on the Master then that came to a head in Planet of Fire (though it's unclear if there was anything the Doctor actually could have done to save the Master there) The Doctor's not naive to the horrible things the Master's done over the years. Even just Missy has killed (one of) Osgood and nearly tricked him into shooting Clara. But he still remembers the Master as the one child willing to be his friend, and such is always willing to try to get his friend back. There was still quite some distance between their last meetup and Extremis, though. I'm not saying The Doctor didn't want to be merciful (The Doctor's mercy's the entire point of the episode), but he's defiantly had time to process his feelings about Missy since Clara's death and her urge to stay true to his nature and talking it all out with River and accepting things end and deal with Clara's death. The death of a teenager in The Doctor's care still feels like it should have more long-reaching consequences for The Doctor/Master's relationship, then it does. I can't expect The Doctor to ever get over that, even with his kindly nature. Maybe the Time War sets will correct this, who knows?
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Post by Whovitt on Apr 22, 2018 3:16:57 GMT
And by the twelfth Doctor's time this is quite literally centuries ago, and it didn't seem to have much of a lasting effect on Adric who seems back to rights by the end of Castrovalva. If it did have any impression on the Doctor's views on the Master then that came to a head in Planet of Fire (though it's unclear if there was anything the Doctor actually could have done to save the Master there) The Doctor's not naive to the horrible things the Master's done over the years. Even just Missy has killed (one of) Osgood and nearly tricked him into shooting Clara. But he still remembers the Master as the one child willing to be his friend, and such is always willing to try to get his friend back. There was still quite some distance between their last meetup and Extremis, though. I'm not saying The Doctor didn't want to be merciful (The Doctor's mercy's the entire point of the episode), but he's defiantly had time to process his feelings about Missy since Clara's death and her urge to stay true to his nature and talking it all out with River and accepting things end and deal with Clara's death. The death of a teenager in The Doctor's care still feels like it should have more long-reaching consequences for The Doctor/Master's relationship, then it does. I can't expect The Doctor to ever get over that, even with his kindly nature. Maybe the Time War sets will correct this, who knows? The Doctor does make a pretty blunt point to Bill in Thin Ice though when he says that you've just got to "...get over [people dying]". If you dwell on it, you will never move forward. So I assume that he's gotten over it at this point (especially since it's been over a millennium for him).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2018 3:27:26 GMT
Anyway, I think we've kind of reached an impasse. Thanks, guys. I love the opinions on this forum, I really do
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Post by Timelord007 on Apr 22, 2018 8:00:01 GMT
It's like the Eleven, his Eighth incarnation is actually good so having one of the Master's incarnations possibly be redeemed is plausible.
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