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Post by charlesuirdhein on Nov 14, 2015 3:06:53 GMT
So you don't consider Genesis of the Daleks canon? How about the Two Doctors? The Daemons? The Time Monster? The Dalek Invasion of Earth? Besides, I find it a bit hard to believe that there are no Big Finish stories that contradict the TV series. Admittedly, I can think of nothing off the top of my head, but Dastari Creel's blog makes a point of noting them,so they do exist. And what of contradictions between Big Finish stories? Take the Reaping and Peri and the Piscon Paradox. Central elements of both tales disregard each other. EDIT: Come to think of it, there's the Oseidon Adventure, which has the Brigadier active in 1978, when Madrywn Undead has him retiring in 1976. Also, do you consider the New Series books canon? Because Gary Russel's Big Bang Generation recently came out, and, in addition to featuring Benny and some of her cohorts from her Big Finish series, apparently features Keri the Pakhar and makes reference to Sanctuary and the Blue Angel. Well, those initial few you list are all TV stories so I don't know where you get the idea I don't think they are canon. My post says nothing about disregarding TV canon. And TV canon is TV canon whether I can explain it or not  And I am sure there ARE some BF stories that contradict canon TV stories, though they strive not to do so and most things that do get through seem slip ups, as opposed to the novels which just didn't seem to care. Apart from Marc Platt who seems intent on propagating his theories of Gallifrey via Lungbarrow anywhere he gets the option. And that's annoying since he's actually a good writer (Just look at Spare Parts, great work). No, I don't consider the New Series books canon, no matter who wrote them. And I don't consider any of the novels from anywhere canon, until BF adapt them and bring them into my preferred head canon. But that's my choice. If you do then cool, we can both still enjoy a good story, can't we? As for things involving Peri? Well, the amount of rejigging of her timeline gives some leeway to her have a multiple choice history, something Piscon Paradox specifically addresses, so... As for the Osedion Adventure? Mawdryn Undead itself make a shambles of Who continuity because they were literally too lazy to change the dates originally set out for Ian Chesterton's appearance, and that wasn't a slip up since the dates are a major part of the plot and if you cover one eye and imagine Ian in place of the Brig then all the confusion goes away. No surprise at him being a teacher (science instead of maths) Retiring from UNIT expunged because he was never in it, etc. And because of this laziness this is one of the major culprits in the UNIT dating controversy, so citing Osedion Adventure against it doesn't give any traction as far as I can see. We are into squinting and hoping the Brig was under cover for some reason. Actually there's a gap BF could fill! Explain why the Brig was there. BF TRY not to contradict, it's pretty much been their modus operandi since the start and even more so since Nick took over. The NAs/EDAs etc didn't. They had a lot of fun stories but their self proclaimed remit in my opinion lead them into areas of such nonsense that even if I wanted to I can't reconcile them into any coherent unity with the TV show, never mind the TV Show AND BF. And there you have it. |
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Post by seeley on Nov 14, 2015 3:38:53 GMT
Well, those initial few you list are all TV stories so I don't know where you get the idea I don't think they are canon. My point was that they all contradict previous TV stories. And I am sure there ARE some BF stories that contradict canon TV stories, though they strive not to do so and most things that do get through seem slip ups, as opposed to the novels which just didn't seem to care... BF TRY not to contradict, it's pretty much been their modus operandi since the start and even more so since Nick took over. The NAs/EDAs etc didn't. They had a lot of fun stories but their self proclaimed remit in my opinion lead them into areas of such nonsense that even if I wanted to I can't reconcile them into any coherent unity with the TV show, never mind the TV Show AND BF. And there you have it. That's not the same thing as actively trying to contradict televised continuity (on which count, only Lungbarrow and War of the Daleks come to mind.) Robert Holmes, among a number of writers, didn't seem to care about not contradicting previous stories, so why should the books be held to a higher standard? Continuity is a wonderful thing, but there's no point in being a slave to it. No, I don't consider the New Series books canon, no matter who wrote them. But that's my choice. If you do then cool, we can both still enjoy a good story, can't we? I quite agree. It's just that I find your justification for not deeming the books canon rather arbitrary. If you don't like them, don't count them, but Doctor Who has never been one to agonize much over internal consistency (not to mention it's a show about time travel.) As for things involving Peri? Well, the amount of rejigging of her timeline gives some leeway to her have a multiple choice history, something Piscon Paradox specifically addresses, so... {Spoiler}
The problem's that all the Peris exist in the same universe, hence the two Peris meeting touching each other and not running afoul of the Blinovitch Limitation Effect. The older Peri was returned to Lanzarote right after she left, with all her memories post-Planet of Fire wiped, ala Jamie and Zoe. The Reaping makes it clear that Peri vanished after that adventure. The idea that the Reaping occurs in a prior iteration of history doesn't sit comfortably with me, given the presence of a far-future Cyberman in that story. I guess you could fudge it and say that the Sixth Doctor wipes out most of the Cybermen sometime before Mindwarp, but that's clearly not the implication.
Mawdryn Undead itself make a shambles of Who continuity because they were literally too lazy to change the dates originally set out for Ian Chesterton's appearance, and that wasn't a slip up since the dates are a major part of the plot and if you cover one eye and imagine Ian in place of the Brig then all the confusion goes away. No surprise at him being a teacher (science instead of maths) Retiring from UNIT expunged because he was never in it, etc. And because of this laziness this is one of the major culprits in the UNIT dating controversy, so citing Osedion Adventure against it doesn't give any traction as far as I can see. We are into squinting and hoping the Brig was under cover for some reason. Actually there's a gap BF could fill! Explain why the Brig was there. A fair point. The difference, in my view, is twofold. Mawdryn's problems can be explained away, I think (though now that I think of it, there may have been a 1970's calendar in Web of Fear.) Sarah Jane's claim that she's from 1980 could be figuring in the amount of time she's traveled with the Doctor, etc. The second matter is that Mawdryn, in which the backdrop of the Queen's Silver Jubilee is significant, introduces Turlough. Trying to retcon it is decidedly precarious, as a result. And it is almost certainly a deliberate, unnecessary attempt to contradict the TV series, on the part of Barnes' (or Briggs,) whereas Mawrdyn was simply ignoring established continuity for the sake of the story. |
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Nov 14, 2015 4:22:20 GMT
Oh, I totally agree that my opinions are arbitrary |
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Post by omega on Nov 14, 2015 5:22:15 GMT
Maybe there was some temporal interference messing with the timelines, and sorting out Mawdryn and his lot undid the interference. So for all intents and purposes the dating did make sense, but we only saw it out of context, comparing it to dating system not so easily reconcilable. |
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Post by seeley on Nov 14, 2015 5:39:25 GMT
Maybe there was some temporal interference messing with the timelines, and sorting out Mawdryn and his lot undid the interference. So for all intents and purposes the dating did make sense, but we only saw it out of context, comparing it to dating system not so easily reconcilable. I wouldn't be surprised. I'd imagine that if you were looking to tamper with the Doctor's history, his exile would be just the period. No doubt the Timelords monitor it, but they could easily miss some interference. Alternately, perhaps the Celestial Intervention Agency occasionally messes with UNIT's history in order to get the Doctor where they want him... |
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Post by omega on Nov 14, 2015 5:49:50 GMT
Maybe there was some temporal interference messing with the timelines, and sorting out Mawdryn and his lot undid the interference. So for all intents and purposes the dating did make sense, but we only saw it out of context, comparing it to dating system not so easily reconcilable. I wouldn't be surprised. I'd imagine that if you were looking to tamper with the Doctor's history, his exile would be just the period. No doubt the Timelords monitor it, but they could easily miss some interference. Alternately, perhaps the Celestial Intervention Agency occasionally messes with UNIT's history in order to get the Doctor where they want him... Alternatively it could be a CIA agent just wanting to play around with the timeline (what would it be like if this happened differently?) or a way to mess with the Doctor, making him confused and doubtful over a period he can't help escaping. It's even possible that the Master did the rejigging to alter the dates, considering he likes to mess with the Doctor. |
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Post by seeley on Nov 14, 2015 5:58:48 GMT
I wouldn't be surprised. I'd imagine that if you were looking to tamper with the Doctor's history, his exile would be just the period. No doubt the Timelords monitor it, but they could easily miss some interference. Alternately, perhaps the Celestial Intervention Agency occasionally messes with UNIT's history in order to get the Doctor where they want him... Alternatively it could be a CIA agent just wanting to play around with the timeline (what would it be like if this happened differently?) or a way to mess with the Doctor, making him confused and doubtful over a period he can't help escaping. It's even possible that the Master did the rejigging to alter the dates, considering he likes to mess with the Doctor. Yup. Any villain with a time machine should be a terrifying prospect, by simple virtue of the fact that he has no qualms about popping back in time to set up things just the way he wants them. If that approach had been used for the Master during the Pertwee era, the Doctor would have become Time's Champion a lot sooner. =P |
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Post by omega on Nov 14, 2015 6:05:00 GMT
Alternatively it could be a CIA agent just wanting to play around with the timeline (what would it be like if this happened differently?) or a way to mess with the Doctor, making him confused and doubtful over a period he can't help escaping. It's even possible that the Master did the rejigging to alter the dates, considering he likes to mess with the Doctor. Yup. Any villain with a time machine should be a terrifying prospect, by simple virtue of the fact that he has no qualms about popping back in time to set up things just the way he wants them. If that approach had been used for the Master during the Pertwee era, the Doctor would have become Time's Champion a lot sooner. =P The Monk kind of did that with the Alternate Universe arc in the New Adventures, unleashing various foes and setting the Doctor up to fail to get revenge for what he did in Daleks' Master Plan. However the Monk wound up giving space bitch Ace some perspective regarding the Seventh Doctor, both were manipulative but the Seventh Doctor at least had good intentions. |
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Post by seeley on Nov 14, 2015 6:08:42 GMT
Yup. Any villain with a time machine should be a terrifying prospect, by simple virtue of the fact that he has no qualms about popping back in time to set up things just the way he wants them. If that approach had been used for the Master during the Pertwee era, the Doctor would have become Time's Champion a lot sooner. =P The Monk kind of did that with the Alternate Universe arc in the New Adventures, unleashing various foes and setting the Doctor up to fail to get revenge for what he did in Daleks' Master Plan. However the Monk wound up giving space bitch Ace some perspective regarding the Seventh Doctor, both were manipulative but the Seventh Doctor at least had good intentions. Though that was more of an elaborate sting. I'm talking about the Master popping back in time to set up something like Terror of the Autons, which neither he nor any other renegade Time Lord ever seems to do. |
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Post by omega on Nov 14, 2015 6:10:54 GMT
The Monk kind of did that with the Alternate Universe arc in the New Adventures, unleashing various foes and setting the Doctor up to fail to get revenge for what he did in Daleks' Master Plan. However the Monk wound up giving space bitch Ace some perspective regarding the Seventh Doctor, both were manipulative but the Seventh Doctor at least had good intentions. Though that was more of an elaborate sting. I'm talking about the Master popping back in time to set up something like Terror of the Autons, which neither he nor any other renegade Time Lord ever seems to do. Plus he had to have set up the Keller machine for Mind of Evil. |
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Post by seeley on Nov 14, 2015 6:13:11 GMT
Though that was more of an elaborate sting. I'm talking about the Master popping back in time to set up something like Terror of the Autons, which neither he nor any other renegade Time Lord ever seems to do. Plus he had to have set up the Keller machine for Mind of Evil. Interesting. I've never seen that one. How far in advance does he set that one up? |
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Post by omega on Nov 14, 2015 6:20:02 GMT
Plus he had to have set up the Keller machine for Mind of Evil. Interesting. I've never seen that one. How far in advance does he set that one up? The Master had set up the Keller identity with enough reputation to set up the machine (with the mind parasite inside) in the prison. I'd say several months at least unless he hypnotised anyone who would question his credentials. It's worth noting that he was missing his materialisation circuit at the time, so if he was playing the long game the Keller machine and hijacking the missile (to attack the peace conference UNIT was protecting) was plan B in case his deal with the Nestenes didn't work out (as it inevitably turned out). |
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Post by mark687 on Dec 30, 2015 10:57:40 GMT
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2015 12:03:19 GMT
That is very nice. Looking forward to hearing it  |
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Post by lidar on Dec 30, 2015 15:13:46 GMT
Interesting picture - best not let my wife see that one! |
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ljwilson
Chancellery Guard
It's tangerine....not orange
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Post by ljwilson on Dec 30, 2015 18:14:38 GMT
Yes indeed, I'll be descrete and just say that Chase is a fine looking woman. Cowabunga
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Post by mark687 on Dec 31, 2015 11:21:08 GMT
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Post by kfbate on Jan 30, 2016 17:34:02 GMT
So guys and gals I haven't dipped my toes into the Vienna world apart from the Main Release where she appears with No.7 is it worth it folks.
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Post by davygallagher on Jan 30, 2016 17:41:02 GMT
Honestly, it's my least favourite Big Finish range. I tried Memory Box, Series 1 and then thought "Right, series 2 and then call it a day if it still does litte for me". And it didn't.  It's the only ongoing BF range I've dropped in years. |
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mbt66
Chancellery Guard
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Post by mbt66 on Jan 30, 2016 18:11:43 GMT
Personally I would highly recommend The Memory Box and the first box set. A very clever collection of stories with lots of intriguing ideas and both funny and exciting.
If you are unsure give the single release a go as it is self contained and a good introduction to what is to come.
However I was disappointed by the second box set as although the first box set ended with a mystery it wasn't subsequently addressed or even acknowledged and the main character and setting changed into basically a female Judge Dredd.
I still haven't made up my mind whether to purchase the third, but honestly after hearing that trailer I doubt that I will. Having Vienna continually saying "Impossibly Glamorous" was really annoying!
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And I am sure there ARE some BF stories that contradict canon TV stories, though they strive not to do so and most things that do get through seem slip ups, as opposed to the novels which just didn't seem to care. Apart from Marc Platt who seems intent on propagating his theories of Gallifrey via Lungbarrow anywhere he gets the option. And that's annoying since he's actually a good writer (Just look at Spare Parts, great work). No, I don't consider the New Series books canon, no matter who wrote them. And I don't consider any of the novels from anywhere canon, until BF adapt them and bring them into my preferred head canon. But that's my choice. If you do then cool, we can both still enjoy a good story, can't we? As for things involving Peri? Well, the amount of rejigging of her timeline gives some leeway to her have a multiple choice history, something Piscon Paradox specifically addresses, so...
It's the only ongoing BF range I've dropped in years. 