Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2018 7:59:21 GMT
Since the wonders of the internet have entered our lives, reading other people's opinions has become very difficult to ignore. Back in the late 80's (here we go), you could at least choose not to buy the handful of fanzines dedicated to slating every aspect of the series. Back then, the Doctor wasn't even a woman - mind you, he was Scottish (imagine that!). What I mean by all this is that there has always been a very ugly side to fandom and it hasn't so much increased, it has just become more visible, I think.
What has always fascinated me is what these people want from Doctor Who. It's never scary enough/too scary/scheduled too late/too early/is too childish/not childish enough - or most prominently 'not the show I watched as a kid'. Now Jodie has been cast these people have an extra element to complain about ("The Doctor should be a man!" "Yes, but you were complaining when he was a man!" "Well, he wasn't the right man!" etc). They will never be happy.
Like Timelord007 , I'm not convinced by the casting. I love everything else I've heard about this upcoming series, but I'm still not sure about the new Doctor. Hearing that CC only auditioned women for the role makes a nonsense of the 'best person for the job' philosophy practiced by Steven Moffat (which I'd hoped was universal), in my view. But I'll give it a go. Life's too short to pretend I'm not going to watch, or to lambast anyone who shows positivity towards this new approach, and certainly I wouldn't try and ruin peoples' enjoyment of it. I might enjoy it myself. Who knows? Who cares? This I agree with all the above. I just wish to enjoy it myself, I will watch open minded and time will tell. Maybe Jodie is brilliant but the scripts not, maybe both Jodie and the scripts are great. Or maybe I won't like her and then I have 54 years of TV, books, audios and comics to choose, I have my fav Doctors and companions and their eras to re-watch and re listed, so... Here's to series 11 just please if it isn't good, powers that be, don't cancel the show! What constitutes a true Fan? Hey am first to admit i did not want a female Doctor and i groaned when they announced it but it is here and it is here to stay so i get fed up hearing the negativity would these people prefer NO WHO ,i have to admit like you i have the audios to listen to and can choose to watch and choose to listen or choose not to watch or not to listen.All the negativity about what is meant to be their favourite show,I have been very careful to avoid negativity on the Forums i came on them to share a like minded passion of shows and Audios,its a programme it is fiction and i guess some folks forget that.Theres a big scary world out there full of great things and awful things am not going to be negative about a show that helps me forget about all those bad things that go on in the world.Lifes too short.
|
|
|
Post by fantasticalice on Aug 10, 2018 21:10:12 GMT
But constructive criticism? That seems to be a rarity here. True, but it's still better than the sort of thing that goes on over at GB. Yeah. Yeah. Holy Hell yeah. GB is frightening at times.
|
|
|
Post by pawntake on Aug 14, 2018 11:41:56 GMT
The Question is When will Jodie Whittaker star in her 1st BF Audio? Just Imagine? Over to you Nick?
|
|
|
Post by thethirddoctor on Aug 14, 2018 20:23:45 GMT
The Question is When will Jodie Whittaker star in her 1st BF Audio? Just Imagine? Over to you Nick? Ohh, dear!
|
|
|
Post by charlesuirdhein on Aug 14, 2018 23:29:14 GMT
There has never been a bad Doctor, your mileage may vary with who you prefer though, and that'll probably continue with Jodie. But there has been some shit writing along the way. Let's hope for great writing. Jodie will be the best Doctor she can be and let's leave her to it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 6:50:12 GMT
There has never been a bad Doctor, your mileage may vary with who you prefer though, and that'll probably continue with Jodie. But there has been some shit writing along the way. Let's hope for great writing. Jodie will be the best Doctor she can be and let's leave her to it. There are those who think they are the guardians of a property. They actually need to get a life. there is more to life than Doctor Who there is more to life than football or rugby or any other thing . Extremes of chronology and fitting everything in and getting upset if it doesn’t. I have never been on any other forum but there is a good balance of opinion on here. There is for me nothing worse than someone telling me what i should be thinking.
|
|
|
Post by charlesuirdhein on Aug 15, 2018 7:22:18 GMT
There has never been a bad Doctor, your mileage may vary with who you prefer though, and that'll probably continue with Jodie. But there has been some shit writing along the way. Let's hope for great writing. Jodie will be the best Doctor she can be and let's leave her to it. There are those who think they are the guardians of a property. They actually need to get a life. there is more to life than Doctor Who there is more to life than football or rugby or any other thing . Extremes of chronology and fitting everything in and getting upset if it doesn’t. I have never been on any other forum but there is a good balance of opinion on here. There is for me nothing worse than someone telling me what i should be thinking. That's exactly how you should be thinking, keep that up!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 7:28:11 GMT
There are those who think they are the guardians of a property. They actually need to get a life. there is more to life than Doctor Who there is more to life than football or rugby or any other thing . Extremes of chronology and fitting everything in and getting upset if it doesn’t. I have never been on any other forum but there is a good balance of opinion on here. There is for me nothing worse than someone telling me what i should be thinking. That's exactly how you should be thinking, keep that up! Is that you telling me?😂
|
|
ljwilson
Chancellery Guard
It's tangerine....not orange
Likes: 5,061
|
Post by ljwilson on Aug 15, 2018 20:56:21 GMT
Try not reading social media, delete your facebook account with all it's crappy likes and false relationships, just distance yourself from all the opinions and extremes.
Watch it yourself, and like it or not.
Dont see a historical moment through a lens or phone screen, just watch it with your eyes, which is what they were designed for. There are plenty of replays online if you need them.
Social media is a good thing for a good cause. For trying to let you 'fit in' it's a truly horrible thing.
A load of ballcocks, who gives a crap what people think about something you like? Just dont read their bile and you will be a happier person.
Rant over.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 0:24:02 GMT
First off: people are entitled to be skeptical or disagree with the casting for their own reasons. Not everyone has a dark agenda.The problem ljwilson is, that a couple of years ago we could do that. We could switch off and laugh at the crazy or the bigots trying to make their play through fandom. But that isn't so anymore with the real-life events and the power of the internet in recent years has made the world a VERY different place. As I've said before, I have talked to fans and they've had well-rounded arguments about prefering The Doctor remaining a male hero and the importance for that for boys and men without disregarding pirtorising important well-rounded faceted female characters, in the lead or otherwise. It might not affect the ratings of the forthcoming series, but some of us feel fearful about the soul of this fandom.
|
|
|
Post by constonks on Aug 16, 2018 4:43:29 GMT
First off: people are entitled to be skeptical or disagree with the casting for their own reasons. Not everyone has a dark agenda.The problem ljwilson is, that a couple of years ago we could do that. We could switch off and laugh at the crazy or the bigots trying to make their play through fandom. But that isn't so anymore with the real-life events and the power of the internet in recent years has made the world a VERY different place. As I've said before, I have talked to fans and they've had well-rounded arguments about prefering The Doctor remaining a male hero and the importance for that for boys and men without disregarding pirtorising important well-rounded faceted female characters, in the lead or otherwise. It might not affect the ratings of the forthcoming series, but some of us feel fearful about the soul of this fandom. In this, I fear for humanity in general. I think we're losing our ability to respectfully disagree and see both sides of an issue. What you've bolded there is a great example. It is ridiculous that folks hounded Peter Davison off of Twitter over his comments on the new Doctor. I don't really agree with the idea - I think Jodie could be as much of a role model to boys as to girls - but he presented his point gently, respectfully and from the perspective of a father of two boys. But all anti-Thirteen sentiment was treated equally by some. Apprehension was viewed as hatred because so many of the loudest voices were fueled by hatred. And we're all guilty of it. We all have biases where we see another side as a singular faceless blob. And good golly has the internet ever made it worse, where we are subjected to literal faceless eggs who may or may not even be people. I wish this post was building to a thesis or a solution, but it's really not. Just a kind of sigh and a shrug and a wistful longing for all things in moderation.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 4:58:35 GMT
First off: people are entitled to be skeptical or disagree with the casting for their own reasons. Not everyone has a dark agenda.The problem ljwilson is, that a couple of years ago we could do that. We could switch off and laugh at the crazy or the bigots trying to make their play through fandom. But that isn't so anymore with the real-life events and the power of the internet in recent years has made the world a VERY different place. As I've said before, I have talked to fans and they've had well-rounded arguments about prefering The Doctor remaining a male hero and the importance for that for boys and men without disregarding pirtorising important well-rounded faceted female characters, in the lead or otherwise. It might not affect the ratings of the forthcoming series, but some of us feel fearful about the soul of this fandom. In this, I fear for humanity in general. I think we're losing our ability to respectfully disagree and see both sides of an issue. What you've bolded there is a great example. It is ridiculous that folks hounded Peter Davison off of Twitter over his comments on the new Doctor. I don't really agree with the idea - I think Jodie could be as much of a role model to boys as to girls - but he presented his point gently, respectfully and from the perspective of a father of two boys. But all anti-Thirteen sentiment was treated equally by some. Apprehension was viewed as hatred because so many of the loudest voices were fueled by hatred. And we're all guilty of it. We all have biases where we see another side as a singular faceless blob. And good golly has the internet ever made it worse, where we are subjected to literal faceless eggs who may or may not even be people. I wish this post was building to a thesis or a solution, but it's really not. Just a kind of sigh and a shrug and a wistful longing for all things in moderation. Oh God, yeah. I am still VERY angry about that. See also: Marvel's Secret Empire (playing directly into some VERY dark corners of the internet). The problem is, that these parts of the internet have cornered and magnified internet outrage, making the discussion harder which is a deliberate and calculated tactic. And f***, I wish people would step back and not simply react to stuff and actually think and reflect. And don't get me started on how fans reacted to Moffatt's 'bi' tweet (honestly, it hurt to see Moffatt trying to make sense of that given how he's tried to respond to criticisms) or (before the allegations came out from Joss Whedon's wife about their relationship) the infamous Age of Ultron debacle.
|
|
|
Post by fantasticalice on Aug 19, 2018 4:37:24 GMT
First off: people are entitled to be skeptical or disagree with the casting for their own reasons. Not everyone has a dark agenda.The problem ljwilson is, that a couple of years ago we could do that. We could switch off and laugh at the crazy or the bigots trying to make their play through fandom. But that isn't so anymore with the real-life events and the power of the internet in recent years has made the world a VERY different place. As I've said before, I have talked to fans and they've had well-rounded arguments about prefering The Doctor remaining a male hero and the importance for that for boys and men without disregarding pirtorising important well-rounded faceted female characters, in the lead or otherwise. It might not affect the ratings of the forthcoming series, but some of us feel fearful about the soul of this fandom. In this, I fear for humanity in general. I think we're losing our ability to respectfully disagree and see both sides of an issue. What you've bolded there is a great example. It is ridiculous that folks hounded Peter Davison off of Twitter over his comments on the new Doctor. I don't really agree with the idea - I think Jodie could be as much of a role model to boys as to girls - but he presented his point gently, respectfully and from the perspective of a father of two boys. But all anti-Thirteen sentiment was treated equally by some. Apprehension was viewed as hatred because so many of the loudest voices were fueled by hatred. And we're all guilty of it. We all have biases where we see another side as a singular faceless blob. And good golly has the internet ever made it worse, where we are subjected to literal faceless eggs who may or may not even be people. I wish this post was building to a thesis or a solution, but it's really not. Just a kind of sigh and a shrug and a wistful longing for all things in moderation. I bring up Peter a lot. I know I am a fangirl but some light comments were twisted by online news rags to get clicks. One person on GB said it best when(roughly remembering) "It sounds like Colin Baker and Peter Davison are body slamming each other in a shirtless wrestling match" And what's interesting about it is not only did they uncomfortably push Peter for a direct opinion on a female Doctor(ouch that part is painful to watch) but his full statement is 80% pro Jodie. His full statement I wrote on Twitter was accepting, honest and embraced all fans and Doctor Who as a whole. And Janet Fielding RTed me. Peter even said his own statement about it may just be him bein an old dinosaur. But what I liked the most (and also why him getting pushed off Twitter made me so mad) was his whole statement was all about giving Jodie a chance and encouraging people to help older fans get into the show. I've seen a lot of sexism and racism and of course homophobia from the 6 months prior to Series Ten to the present. It's shown a dark and rather scary side to Doctor Who fans that forced me to leave Facebook. I have had tolearn that if I am happy about a bme character or a gay character in Doctor Who or anything else it's stupid to start a thread about it. Being bullied, called a sexual deviant, and a dozen other things really fucked with my enjoyment of series ten. I even had someone start chasing me into other thread and enlisting buddies to attack me. A lot of things I really want to discuss about Jodie I can't because I am worn out from a lot of the hate I've seen. But we have a Bi/Pansexual Doctor. We always have and she has been more on the asexual side of that which is also wonderful. But for me, who lost her wife in '98 not only do I find myself identifying with the Doctor for the first time in ever I have a female heroine who is a widow just like me. This is really huge for me because being a widow and a domestic violence survivor are things I am never able to talk about due to the looks of disgust and revulsion I get when I have tried. I don't wish for Doctor Who ever to get into the nuance of DV but Peter showed such beautiful emotion about River and its so lovely to know that Jodie is still that person. Also as someone who has been callously insulted on multiple occasions(most of them in the past) for my Northern(Ireland) accent it's a huge deal to me that both Jodie and Mandip are Northern folk as I relate to that. And wow the nasty comments about her accent were really messed up. The truth is that there is a lot of nastiness out there and most people assume that if someone just "feels weird" about a female Doctor they have no need to be vocal about it and will give her a chance. I'm also incredibly grateful that nobody has tried to force opinions out of any other Doctor Who cast. Someone wrote something nasty about Peter Purves and it irritated the hell out of me. And that's because Peter has never accepted ANYONE else as the Doctor. Period. He's professional, is kind in interviews when asked about new Doctors and gave a great performance with Peter and Maureen in "Secret History" . Truth is I have seen so much nastiness and foul ness over Pearl, Mandip, and Tosin... Segun Akinola, and Jodie and have myself been reduced to tears over vicious attacks I just don't really care about the handful of people that have constructive reasons for not liking them. Unless they actually delineate them nobody should be surprised that when presented with so much nastiness people don't wish to hear anything that isn't obviously very different. And... I have no problem saying my issues and concerns with Tosin and the new composer. I'm not scared I'll be lumped in with the racists and the people screaming "Sjw nonsense" Because my issues with Segun are just trepidation over a new composer. He's excessively talented has a great cV and I am hopeful that he will be great but he is new to Who. My concern over Tosin is I have never seen him do anything but Captain Blokey McBloke Bloke bits and I hope he has a meatier part than that. I'm never afraid to question a casting choice. I never feel I have to justify my well thought out reasons for wondering. Doctor Who has always been about grabbing unknowns and making them stars but this series is pretty Star Studded. I'm certain Chibi cast Tosin and Mandip so they could develop an identity as Companions without being tied to as many things as the major celebrities he has as Doctor Who, Graham, and even his new composer. Mandip is amazing, Tosin is likeable and they are both used to aggressive acting schedules. But I honestly have grown tired of all the nastiness. I know how to read between the lines. when someone accuses Bill of stopping the show dead in its tracks to go "HUR hUr Im a big old gaylord" every episode and then chases me into other threads, attacks me constantly and then says they aren't homophobic I call BS. If someone writes a novella basically justifying why they don't want a female Doctor and why they aren't sexist etc and is so full of stuff about how their Mother was a woman and how they encourage girls to vote and how they have many friends that are women or whatever weird stuff I have seen I also call BS. The people who just write that they would have preferred Vicki McClure with no weird hyperbole or they were hoping for a BME Doctor so are unsure or a dozen simple, basic comments about why they are unsure about JODIE and are not dissonant or full of self justifying crap it's actually interesting to read. Because that's the other thing. It's not about a female Doctor anymore it's about Jodie. And that's where your debate lies. I want Idris Elba for the Master. If I can't have him my next two votes are Keeley hawes and Vicki McClure. But It's between Keeley and Idris. Idris would give this really dark evil BeeversBeevers/jacobi style master and Keeley would be between Macqueen/Simm and Ainley at his looniest. Do I see any issue in my head with the fact that one is a black bloke and one is a white lady? No. I just think they would do fantastic jobs. And that's the point. I am aware of colour and gender and its important for me to see it on screen. But in my head I don't see any real dividing line as long as I know people like me and BME folk are represented as a whole.
|
|
|
Post by nucleusofswarm on Aug 19, 2018 10:54:40 GMT
In this, I fear for humanity in general. I think we're losing our ability to respectfully disagree and see both sides of an issue. What you've bolded there is a great example. It is ridiculous that folks hounded Peter Davison off of Twitter over his comments on the new Doctor. I don't really agree with the idea - I think Jodie could be as much of a role model to boys as to girls - but he presented his point gently, respectfully and from the perspective of a father of two boys. But all anti-Thirteen sentiment was treated equally by some. Apprehension was viewed as hatred because so many of the loudest voices were fueled by hatred. And we're all guilty of it. We all have biases where we see another side as a singular faceless blob. And good golly has the internet ever made it worse, where we are subjected to literal faceless eggs who may or may not even be people. I wish this post was building to a thesis or a solution, but it's really not. Just a kind of sigh and a shrug and a wistful longing for all things in moderation. Oh God, yeah. I am still VERY angry about that. See also: Marvel's Secret Empire (playing directly into some VERY dark corners of the internet). The problem is, that these parts of the internet have cornered and magnified internet outrage, making the discussion harder which is a deliberate and calculated tactic. And f***, I wish people would step back and not simply react to stuff and actually think and reflect. And don't get me started on how fans reacted to Moffatt's 'bi' tweet (honestly, it hurt to see Moffatt trying to make sense of that given how he's tried to respond to criticisms) or (before the allegations came out from Joss Whedon's wife about their relationship) the infamous Age of Ultron debacle. Been a while since I was on here. Consider this a multi-response/addendum:
So, alice echoes and expands on several things I discussed in the OP, as did Constonks and mike. However, I feel I should address points about the pro-side and a little more on the detractorship: yes, what happened to Peter was really lousy and I don't condone it at all. I agree reactionary-ness is a big problem on online discourse. The demands of online 'click' culture also make titles to otherwise reasonable, if not insightful, articles like 'Doctor Who doesn't belong to White Men' unhelpful and contribute to the oft-bandied chestnut of the 'SJW'.
The reason I don't give them as much flak, compared to the anti side (what do you even call them?) is because I see it more as misguided altruism than genuine malice: most of them are young adults who are getting their toes wet in political activism and, like any first time, probably say and do things they wouldn't otherwise because of that 'new' rush, inflamed further by the current climate. It's wrong, but there's at least something there. The Levines and b.t.s bother me much more because their anger comes from a genuine malice and, for lack of a better term, greed and entitlement: they were NEVER going to give Jodie a chance, and it's for entirely shallow and selfish reasons. It's one thing to say 'I don't like Jodie because of x performance': that's reasonable, informed and founded. Those are not the people I'm and others on here, are refering to.
It's not reasonable to dismiss someone within moments of having heard they were announced, and then critiquing every little detail since like it was the complete final package. They never gave her a fair shake and created an impossible criteria. B.t., as discussed in another thread, has focused an unnatural amount of ire towards Jodie, despite the lack of anything substantive, in his videos. All this happening, funnily enough, around the time of a very bad marital break-up. Hmm, I can't possibly see any sort of projection going on there, in which case, maybe see a counsellor or therapist and not go crying to the internet with your problems?
When I discussed Capaldi being their validation, I wasn't throwing that on Capaldi himself: he's been all around great as both actor and ambassador for the show. Rather, to reiterate, it was the marketing that gave that push, placing so much emphasis on him being old school and not having romances and being angry: all things these people had been whining about for years because they thought RTD made the Doctor too 'soft and mainstream'. They thought they had been listened to and the show was at their beck and call, grovelling on its knees to them. The increased reliance on nostalgia and references didn't help.
A smart person could see how one does not equal the other, but hey, this is the internet: people will argue 1 plus 1 is 3, or the earth being flat.
|
|
|
Post by anothermanicmondas on Aug 19, 2018 13:22:07 GMT
all this ongoing controversy over Doctor casting reminds me of the Second Doctor at the end of the War Games dismissing the various options
we've had too young, too old, too female each predicted to doom the franchise what will be next?
sadly the internet/social media seems to thrive on a currency and clicks and controversy and outrage get the most.. narratives are developed, statements are interpreted to fit the narrative by people who believe so strongly in the narrative they don't realise they are making things up...
|
|
|
Post by mark687 on Aug 24, 2018 20:55:18 GMT
Its all kicked off again over Talons thanks to DWM.
So should people apologise for liking it in spite of the fact that it has inappropriate cultural stereotypes and a White Actor in make up and is this where Fandom implodes?
Regards
mark687
|
|
|
Post by nucleusofswarm on Aug 24, 2018 20:58:40 GMT
Its all kicked off again over Talons thanks to DWM. So should people apologise for liking it in spite of the fact that it has inappropriate cultural stereotypes and a White Actor in make up and is this where Fandom implodes? Regards mark687 Paul Cornell weighs in in this thread, for what its worth:
|
|
|
Post by mark687 on Aug 24, 2018 21:10:24 GMT
Its all kicked off again over Talons thanks to DWM. So should people apologise for liking it in spite of the fact that it has inappropriate cultural stereotypes and a White Actor in make up and is this where Fandom implodes? Regards mark687 Paul Cornell weighs in in this thread, for what its worth:
That's not what I'm getting at it though I know the racial stenotypes are inappropriate , but Talons is a great story in spite of them IMO, but now general Fandom thinking seems to be if you like the story, your endorsing the stereotypes so that's you "Wrong!"
Regards
mark687
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2018 21:13:25 GMT
Its all kicked off again over Talons thanks to DWM. So should people apologise for liking it in spite of the fact that it has inappropriate cultural stereotypes and a White Actor in make up and is this where Fandom implodes? Regards mark687 No, people shouldn't apologise for liking something, that's pretty stupid. What people should do, however, is stop trying to make excuses for the serial. It doesn't matter how much context someone can give ("Ooh, but it's a Fu Manchu pastiche!"), the result is still offensive to a great number of people.
|
|
|
Post by nucleusofswarm on Aug 24, 2018 21:25:41 GMT
Its all kicked off again over Talons thanks to DWM. So should people apologise for liking it in spite of the fact that it has inappropriate cultural stereotypes and a White Actor in make up and is this where Fandom implodes? Regards mark687 No, people shouldn't apologise for liking something, that's pretty stupid. What people should do, however, is stop trying to make excuses for the serial. It doesn't matter how much context someone can give ("Ooh, but it's a Fu Manchu pastiche!"), the result is still offensive to a great number of people. I'm usually the first to pound on the 'Context' drum in terms of discussion of older media, but even that doesn't excuse. In fact it makes it worse because A) There's a good reason why Fu Manchu has been a dead property, and that death started not far off from this story. B) Doctor Who already had cast Asian actors in Asian roles before this, like in Mind of Evil six years earlier. There's even Asian actors in Talons! There was no excuse in 1976/77 on Maloney's part not to find an Asian to play Chang. It's really arbitrary that Fu has to be a white guy because 'well, that's how it always was'. Funny how Dracula is not played exclusively by East European actors, then...
John Bennett did a great job, in terms of being menacing, but he's still a white guy with yellow paint and taped slant eyes. You can't get around that if you're intereted in honest discussion, and it's irritating because, Talons' high quality aside (and make no mistake, it's a damn good mystery Gothic historical), it's really the only out and out stereotype of this nature in Classic Who: they at least had sense not to do red faced Native Americans or grass-skirt cannibals.
|
|