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Post by themeddlingmonk on Mar 10, 2021 19:36:04 GMT
RIP Torchwood Series 5 and 6 dating. Smh.
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Post by sherlock on Mar 10, 2021 19:37:09 GMT
RIP Torchwood Series 5 and 6 dating. Smh. What fresh hell has Torchwood dating unleashed now
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Mar 10, 2021 20:04:56 GMT
RIP Torchwood Series 5 and 6 dating. Smh. What fresh hell has Torchwood dating unleashed now Stranded 2 / Aliens Among Us / God Among Us spoilers: {Spoiler} Basically in the first episode of Stranded 2, Andy claims that the events of Thoughts and Prayers as happening a few months back. This is a secret that Andy has been keeping from Tania, so she was definitely already a Torchwood member during the time frame of these releases.
But the issue is, as Stranded is very explicitly in 2020, that implies that God Among Us concludes likely sometime in mid to late 2019.
But the fairly short time frame established over the course of AAU and GAU doesn’t really allow for this. The Torchwood Archive establishes that AAU takes place at least partially in 2017, and the entire series itself only takes place over a few months. It also has to take place somewhere roughly between May 2017 and 18 as Anwen is mentioned to be seven years old. The first boxset only takes place over a few weeks, and the second set picks up not too long after the first and again takes place over a few weeks before leading into the third and final set of AAU. That one takes place over about three or four days and establishes that the entire events of AAU took place over the last few months.
GAU 1 picks up a few weeks after AAU3 and tbh can’t really begin more than two or three weeks after it. GAU2 begins immediately after the last episode of GAU1 (which also followed on from the third episode of that set) and the entire boxset is established as taking place over the course of several weeks, with it also being several weeks since the end of AAU. Also it’s established in another man's shoes that The Empty Hand took place the previous year, so that pretty much puts everything in GAU up to Another Man's Shoes in either 2017 or 2018.
Then there’s a gap of about 2 months between GAU2 and GAU3, and an indeterminate amount of time passes over the course of GAU3, but it’s hardly to believe that that boxset spans the length of a year.
Logically I just can’t see GAU as ending any later than mid 2018, which means it would’ve been a year and a half at least between that and Stranded, rather than a couple of months as Andy claims.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Mar 11, 2021 12:03:22 GMT
Lol tempted to make a joke about it on twitter
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Post by sherlock on Mar 11, 2021 12:04:25 GMT
What fresh hell has Torchwood dating unleashed now Stranded 2 / Aliens Among Us / God Among Us spoilers: {Spoiler} Basically in the first episode of Stranded 2, Andy claims that the events of Thoughts and Prayers as happening a few months back. This is a secret that Andy has been keeping from Tania, so she was definitely already a Torchwood member during the time frame of these releases.
But the issue is, as Stranded is very explicitly in 2020, that implies that God Among Us concludes likely sometime in mid to late 2019.
But the fairly short time frame established over the course of AAU and GAU doesn’t really allow for this. The Torchwood Archive establishes that AAU takes place at least partially in 2017, and the entire series itself only takes place over a few months. It also has to take place somewhere roughly between May 2017 and 18 as Anwen is mentioned to be seven years old. The first boxset only takes place over a few weeks, and the second set picks up not too long after the first and again takes place over a few weeks before leading into the third and final set of AAU. That one takes place over about three or four days and establishes that the entire events of AAU took place over the last few months.
GAU 1 picks up a few weeks after AAU3 and tbh can’t really begin more than two or three weeks after it. GAU2 begins immediately after the last episode of GAU1 (which also followed on from the third episode of that set) and the entire boxset is established as taking place over the course of several weeks, with it also being several weeks since the end of AAU. Also it’s established in another man's shoes that The Empty Hand took place the previous year, so that pretty much puts everything in GAU up to Another Man's Shoes in either 2017 or 2018.
Then there’s a gap of about 2 months between GAU2 and GAU3, and an indeterminate amount of time passes over the course of GAU3, but it’s hardly to believe that that boxset spans the length of a year.
Logically I just can’t see GAU as ending any later than mid 2018, which means it would’ve been a year and a half at least between that and Stranded, rather than a couple of months as Andy claims. *screams into void* I’m honestly starting to lean towards exposure to the Rift just warping characters’ perception of time, it would explain a great deal.
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Post by sherlock on Jun 30, 2021 9:40:37 GMT
Kinda torn about The Five People You Kill in Middlesbrough.
It’s very clearly the Aliens/God Among Us iteration of Yvonne (as she mentions events that happened after the original’s death) and Torchwood is in business, not underground or anything like that, so it probably slot in somewhere during God Among Us. But... the events of the story are so large scale (unusually so for a monthly) that it feels a bit bizarre that it wouldn’t be mentioned at all (I haven’t heard God Among Us myself, but I can’t imagine there’s a forward reference to this release given it was so obviously inspired by last year’s real world events).
So, either it was during God Among Us and Torchwood just retconned literally everyone and never felt the need to mention these nigh-apocalyptic events themselves ever...or it’s during a hypothetical post-God Among Us/Stranded timeframe where Torchwood is officially operational again.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Jul 4, 2021 22:31:45 GMT
The latest issue of Titan's Missy comic confirms that The End of Time takes place in 2009.
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Post by sherlock on Jul 6, 2021 14:50:07 GMT
The latest issue of Titan's Missy comic confirms that The End of Time takes place in 2009. Ah damn it. There goes one elegant solution. So this brings back the Planet of the Dead problem. Planet is post-Series 4 (as Barclay recalls the “planets in the sky”) and pre- End of Time (assuming the psychic woman’s prediction, I forget her name, means End is in Earth’s future as well as the Doctor’s). It also comes with the big problem-“Happy Easter!”, which would suggest all of Series 4 is prior to Easter...which conflicts with the novel Beautiful Chaos which is during Series 4 and takes place in May. Damnit. There’s two solutions here and neither are elegant. 1. The prediction is just relative to the Doctor specifically, meaning whilst The End of Time is in his future it’s not for Earth. This allows Planet to stay in Easter 2010. 2. It’s not actually Easter and the Doctor has just acquired an Easter egg somehow, cos he’s weird like that and as a time traveller he can buy Easter eggs at anytime (though given how much earlier Easter egg sales seem to start each year, time machine may no longer be necessary for that one day). This allows Planet to go in late 2009 after Series 4 and not conflict with Beautiful Chaos.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Jul 6, 2021 17:33:13 GMT
The latest issue of Titan's Missy comic confirms that The End of Time takes place in 2009. Ah damn it. There goes one elegant solution. So this brings back the Planet of the Dead problem. Planet is post-Series 4 (as Barclay recalls the “planets in the sky”) and pre- End of Time (assuming the psychic woman’s prediction, I forget her name, means End is in Earth’s future as well as the Doctor’s). It also comes with the big problem-“Happy Easter!”, which would suggest all of Series 4 is prior to Easter...which conflicts with the novel Beautiful Chaos which is during Series 4 and takes place in May. Damnit. There’s two solutions here and neither are elegant. 1. The prediction is just relative to the Doctor specifically, meaning whilst The End of Time is in his future it’s not for Earth. This allows Planet to stay in Easter 2010. 2. It’s not actually Easter and the Doctor has just acquired an Easter egg somehow, cos he’s weird like that and as a time traveller he can buy Easter eggs at anytime (though given how much earlier Easter egg sales seem to start each year, time machine may no longer be necessary for that one day). This allows Planet to go in late 2009 after Series 4 and not conflict with Beautiful Chaos.
There’s adverts for the Naismiths about during Planet of the Dead which would suggest it’s before their arrest in The End of Time. However, I guess it’s possible that they’ve just not gotten rid of everything within four months. You would expect them to though, as I doubt anyone would want to be associated with them.
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Post by sherlock on Jul 6, 2021 18:45:00 GMT
And just as I was modifying the timeline to move End of Time to 2009 I realised it also breaks my dating of SJA as Wedding has to be before it, cos End is last time Sarah seems the Doctor until Death of the Doctor. Guess I’ll reshuffle Series 3 up to Wedding to late 2009 and just ignore that the season in Wedding is very obviously not autumn (maybe the relocation of Earth just screwed the seasons up for months).
And another problem has emerged which is that Jack is off-world in The End of Time, but the coda of Children of Earth can’t take place any earlier than February 2010 due to the six month time jump after the main events (which a newspaper puts in September 2009).
Aggh bloody Titan. This is why writers should not assign dates to any story associated with the RTD era, cos they never get it right.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Jul 6, 2021 19:27:14 GMT
I think the Jack stuff is fine tbh, Jack’s timeline doesn’t need to line up with the Doctor’s if he’s off Earth.
Tbh I like the Titan dates because I stubbornly want everything to take place in the year it was released (or plus one year in the case of the RTD era up until the specials)
Those 2015 dates saved Series 9 from taking place umpteen years in the future and for that I’m forever grateful.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Jul 6, 2021 23:03:15 GMT
Also something I’ve just realised.
There was no way The End of Time in 2010 was ever gonna work.
This is because SJA Series 4 is explicitly dated to 2010. In The Nightmare Man there’s a calendar dated to September 2010 in plain view in Luke’s room that he used to count down the days until he goes to university.
In Death of the Doctor it’s been “ about four years” since School Reunion, which takes place roughly in January 2007. So by the end of 2010, it’d be a few months off of 4 years since then whereas if it took place in 2011 it’d be nearly 5 years. And ofc Sarah hasn’t seen the Doctor since The End of Time.
Lost in Time is dated to November 23rd 2010. The year is stated in dialogue, and the date and month is given via a newspaper. Rani is stated to be 17.
Then Series 5 must take place in early 2011 at the latest. This is because Rani is still 17. Secrets of the Stars establishes that her star sign is Aries, so by the end of April 2011 she would’ve turned 18 already. Also cricket season is beginning in The Curse of Clyde Langer which is usually around March or April so that further suggests an early in the year setting.
So really the dating for SJA is actually pretty set in stone. The only issues you run into are with Series 3 because of the change from a year ahead to year of release meaning that Series 3 has to take place from roughly December 2009 to potentially spring or summer 2010.
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Post by sherlock on Jul 7, 2021 8:02:08 GMT
Also something I’ve just realised. There was no way The End of Time in 2010 was ever gonna work. This is because SJA Series 4 is explicitly dated to 2010. In The Nightmare Man there’s a calendar dated to September 2010 in plain view in Luke’s room that he used to count down the days until he goes to university. In Death of the Doctor it’s been “ about four years” since School Reunion, which takes place roughly in January 2007. So by the end of 2010, it’d be a few months off of 4 years since then whereas if it took place in 2011 it’d be nearly 5 years. And ofc Sarah hasn’t seen the Doctor since The End of Time. Lost in Time is dated to November 23rd 2010. The year is stated in dialogue, and the date and month is given via a newspaper. Rani is stated to be 17. Then Series 5 must take place in early 2011 at the latest. This is because Rani is still 17. Secrets of the Stars establishes that her star sign is Aries, so by the end of April 2011 she would’ve turned 18 already. Also cricket season is beginning in The Curse of Clyde Langer which is usually around March or April so that further suggests an early in the year setting. So really the dating for SJA is actually pretty set in stone. The only issues you run into are with Series 3 because of the change from a year ahead to year of release meaning that Series 3 has to take place from roughly December 2009 to potentially spring or summer 2010. That’s all true but has one big problem. None of that takes into account the time that passes at the start of The Nightmare Man.The Nightmare Man starts with Luke deciding to go to uni a year early, so he, Clyde and Rani must be starting the first year of Sixth Form (Sarah Jane even explicitly says that). Now we know Luke was 14 at the start of SJA, so that assuming the Whoniverse UK education system is like real life puts his education as- -Year 10 (ages 14-15): September 2008 ( Revenge of the Slitheen) - Summer 2009 -Year 11 (ages 15-16): September 2009 ( Day of the Clown) - Summer 2010 -Year 12/Lower Sixth Form (ages 16 -17): September 2010-Summer 2011 And then he goes to uni a year early, whilst Clyde and Rani stay to complete their second year of Sixth Form/Year 13. The Nightmare Man begins with the start of Lower Sixth Form, with Luke deciding to do his A Levels early to go to uni a year early, and then jumps ahead of Luke receiving his A-Level results. The first year of Sixth Form must have passed between those scenes for him to accomplish this. So the earliest that those results can be is August 2011. So whilst SJA does repeatedly date Series 4 to 2010, it is simply impossible for Luke to have done his A-Levels and gone to uni by September 2010.
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Post by Whovitt on Jul 7, 2021 8:32:34 GMT
Also something I’ve just realised. There was no way The End of Time in 2010 was ever gonna work. This is because SJA Series 4 is explicitly dated to 2010. In The Nightmare Man there’s a calendar dated to September 2010 in plain view in Luke’s room that he used to count down the days until he goes to university. In Death of the Doctor it’s been “ about four years” since School Reunion, which takes place roughly in January 2007. So by the end of 2010, it’d be a few months off of 4 years since then whereas if it took place in 2011 it’d be nearly 5 years. And ofc Sarah hasn’t seen the Doctor since The End of Time. Lost in Time is dated to November 23rd 2010. The year is stated in dialogue, and the date and month is given via a newspaper. Rani is stated to be 17. Then Series 5 must take place in early 2011 at the latest. This is because Rani is still 17. Secrets of the Stars establishes that her star sign is Aries, so by the end of April 2011 she would’ve turned 18 already. Also cricket season is beginning in The Curse of Clyde Langer which is usually around March or April so that further suggests an early in the year setting. So really the dating for SJA is actually pretty set in stone. The only issues you run into are with Series 3 because of the change from a year ahead to year of release meaning that Series 3 has to take place from roughly December 2009 to potentially spring or summer 2010. That’s all true but has one big problem. None of that takes into account the time that passes at the start of The Nightmare Man.The Nightmare Man starts with Luke deciding to go to uni a year early, so he, Clyde and Rani must be starting the first year of Sixth Form (Sarah Jane even explicitly says that). Now we know Luke was 14 at the start of SJA, so that assuming the Whoniverse UK education system is like real life puts his education as- -Year 10 (ages 14-15): September 2008 ( Revenge of the Slitheen) - Summer 2009 -Year 11 (ages 15-16): September 2009 ( Day of the Clown) - Summer 2010 -Year 12/Lower Sixth Form (ages 16 -17): September 2010-Summer 2011 And then he goes to uni a year early, whilst Clyde and Rani stay to complete their second year of Sixth Form/Year 13. The Nightmare Man begins with the start of Lower Sixth Form, with Luke deciding to do his A Levels early to go to uni a year early, and then jumps ahead of Luke receiving his A-Level results. The first year of Sixth Form must have passed between those scenes for him to accomplish this. So the earliest that those results can be is August 2011. So whilst SJA does repeatedly date Series 4 to 2010, it is simply impossible for Luke to have done his A-Levels and gone to uni by September 2010. Could you treat the opening scenes of The Nightmare Man as a flashback (that was conspicuously never mentioned in the previous series...)? Could we then have Series 3 and The Nightmare Man all taking place during the same school year (if that actually helps)? I'm probably overlooking something obvious here, but thought I'd float the idea just in case.
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Post by sherlock on Jul 7, 2021 8:45:24 GMT
That’s all true but has one big problem. None of that takes into account the time that passes at the start of The Nightmare Man.The Nightmare Man starts with Luke deciding to go to uni a year early, so he, Clyde and Rani must be starting the first year of Sixth Form (Sarah Jane even explicitly says that). Now we know Luke was 14 at the start of SJA, so that assuming the Whoniverse UK education system is like real life puts his education as- -Year 10 (ages 14-15): September 2008 ( Revenge of the Slitheen) - Summer 2009 -Year 11 (ages 15-16): September 2009 ( Day of the Clown) - Summer 2010 -Year 12/Lower Sixth Form (ages 16 -17): September 2010-Summer 2011 And then he goes to uni a year early, whilst Clyde and Rani stay to complete their second year of Sixth Form/Year 13. The Nightmare Man begins with the start of Lower Sixth Form, with Luke deciding to do his A Levels early to go to uni a year early, and then jumps ahead of Luke receiving his A-Level results. The first year of Sixth Form must have passed between those scenes for him to accomplish this. So the earliest that those results can be is August 2011. So whilst SJA does repeatedly date Series 4 to 2010, it is simply impossible for Luke to have done his A-Levels and gone to uni by September 2010. Could you treat the opening scenes of The Nightmare Man as a flashback (that was conspicuously never mentioned in the previous series...)? Could we then have Series 3 and The Nightmare Man all taking place during the same school year (if that actually helps)? I'm probably overlooking something obvious here, but thought I'd float the idea just in case. Well trouble is Sarah explicitly says Luke is 14 in Journey’s End which in mid 2009, so Year 10 is the highest year group he could be in by that point, unless Sarah just somehow got him put in a higher year group there’s no real way to shuffle him ahead in the school years. She could be mistaken I suppose as it’s pretty tense situation (end of the universe and all that). I suppose his age is somewhat complicated by him not even having a birthday to mark until Secrets of the Stars.
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Post by sherlock on Jul 7, 2021 10:52:27 GMT
Ok so like UNIT, I’ve gone back to basics on SJA in hopes of a solution presenting itself-
School Reunion: 2007
Invasion of the Bane: At least a year and a half after School Reunion as that’s how long K9 Mark IV has been plugging the black hole according to Sarah.
Revenge of the Slitheen: Not long after Invasion. Start of a new school year, so September.
The Lost Boy: Five months after Invasion as that’s how long “Ashley” has supposedly been missing. Sarah claims she received Mr Smith’s crystal eighteen months ago.
The Last Sontaran: Aftermath of The Poison Sky so 2009.
The Stolen Earth/Journey’s End: 2009. Luke name checks Maria and Clyde but not Rani. According to Sarah, Luke is 14.
The Day of the Clown: So actually far as I can tell I was mistaken about this one as there’s nothing explicit about this being a new school year, though with new head and Rani starting it probably is. Haresh does mention looking over Luke’s results from the “past year” so he’s been at Park Vale for at least one school year.
The Wedding: Sarah meets the Tenth Doctor so prior to The End of Time.
The End of Time: December 2009: The last time Sarah sees the Tenth Doctor.
Mona Lisa’s Revenge: Rani, Clyde and Luke’s class is “11T”, implying they are in Year 11. (Only just spotted this one)
The Gift: Clyde explicitly asks K9 for help on a test that’s part of the GCSE syllabus, so not Sixth Form yet.
The Nightmare Man: Starts with Luke, having just started Sixth Form according to Sarah, deciding to take his A Levels a year early and then jumps ahead a year to him about to leave for uni. A calendar places the main story in September 2010.
Death of the Doctor: Sarah’s first encounter with the Doctor since The End of Time. Sarah claims School Reunion was about four years ago.
Lost in Time: A newspaper dates this to November 2010. Rani is 17.
Sky: Rani is 17.
The Curse of Clyde Langer: A lot of discussion about what Clyde will do after school, so definitely latter half of Sixth Form for him.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Jul 7, 2021 12:16:38 GMT
There’s emails from Maria dated to October in Day of the Clown.
There’s no way around this dating issue because we know Rani was born in either March or April, and she was 17 by November 2010, meaning she was born in March/April 1993. Therefore she should realistically be finishing her A-Levels in Summer 2011, same with Clyde. That lines up with the dating we’re given in Series 4 and 5. Particularly with Luke taking his A Levels and year early and leaving for Uni in September 2010.
But obviously each series is set out like it takes place in a different year, so theoretically it should’ve been:
Series 1 - 2008 / Kids are 14 Series 2 - 2009 / Kids are 15 Series 3 - 2010 / Kids are 16 Series 4 - 2011 / Kids are 17 Series 5 - 2012 / Kids are still 17
But then Series 3 got conflated into the same year as Series 2 due to the broadcast date sync up in 2009, and then Series 4 explicitly placed itself in 2010 with the kids being 17. Meaning we ended up losing a year. I don’t really see a way around it though unless you flat out ignore the dating for Series 4.
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Post by sherlock on Jan 1, 2022 16:40:10 GMT
Reviewing this ahead of extending it 2022.
Re-SJA. I’ve admitted defeat. For the passage of time to make sense Series 4 cannot be in 2010, but clearly the art department didn’t pick up on this when making calendars and newspaper props. Luke uses an old calendar and Sarah just took a really long time to investigate that Gruffalo sighting I guess. Awkward fixes but ah well.
Re-Torchwood. Well I’ve now actually listened to The Story Continues and broke it down as it went along- The Torchwood Archive: Mr Colchester and Orr are part of the team in 2017, so post-Aliens Among Us 1 at least.
Zero Hour: Anwen is 7, so between June 2017 and June 2018.
The Empty Hand: Jack has been absent from Torchwood for weeks, so some weeks since Zero Hour where he’s mentioned running an errand to get equipment for the Rift Manipulator.
Poker Face: Straight after The Empty Hand.
Herald of the Dawn: Only days have passed since Poker Face. Kate Stewart is obliquely referenced so must be 2017, as Survivors of the Flux has UNIT shutdown and Kate going on the run in this year.
Future Pain: Days after Herald of the Dawn.
See No Evil: Long enough since Future Pain for Ng to prove herself to Yvonne and Jack avoiding her to become noticeable.
Night Watch: Straight after See No Evil. Weeks since Colchester’s funeral in Future Pain.
Flight 405: Immediately after Night Watch.
Hostile Environment: Long enough since the Sorvix left in Future Pain for Oblation to be established. Story seems to cover weeks, at least.
Another Man’s Shoes: The Empty Hand was last year. Andy considers Ng “pretty new” still. Norton has been in Cardiff for weeks.
Eye of the Storm: Shortly after Another Man’s Shoes.
A Mother’s Son: Months after Eye of the Storm.
ScrapeJane: Colchester died a few months ago and Torchwood are now locked out of the Hub.
Thoughts and Prayers: Long enough since ScrapeJane for the Committee to do their evil scheming in the Hub.
Stranded: 2020. Thoughts and Prayers was a few months ago.
So the trick will be stretching Aliens/God Among Us out long enough to make a few months prior to 2020 seem even vaguely credible. Gonna have to be very liberal interpretations in some places. Or Andy just took a blow to the head offscreen which ruined his perception of time.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Jan 1, 2022 18:00:38 GMT
Reviewing this ahead of extending it 2022. Re-SJA. I’ve admitted defeat. For the passage of time to make sense Series 4 cannot be in 2010, but clearly the art department didn’t pick up on this when making calendars and newspaper props. Luke uses an old calendar and Sarah just took a really long time to investigate that Gruffalo sighting I guess. Awkward fixes but ah well. Re-Torchwood. Well I’ve now actually listened to The Story Continues and broke it down as it went along- The Torchwood Archive: Mr Colchester and Orr are part of the team in 2017, so post-Aliens Among Us 1 at least. Zero Hour: Anwen is 7, so between June 2017 and June 2018. The Empty Hand: Jack has been absent from Torchwood for weeks, so some weeks since Zero Hour where he’s mentioned running an errand to get equipment for the Rift Manipulator. Poker Face: Straight after The Empty Hand. Herald of the Dawn: Only days have passed since Poker Face. Kate Stewart is obliquely referenced so must be 2017, as Survivors of the Flux has UNIT shutdown and Kate going on the run in this year. Future Pain: Days after Herald of the Dawn. See No Evil: Long enough since Future Pain for Ng to prove herself to Yvonne and Jack avoiding her to become noticeable. Night Watch: Straight after See No Evil. Weeks since Colchester’s funeral in Future Pain. Flight 405: Immediately after Night Watch. Hostile Environment: Long enough since the Sorvix left in Future Pain for Oblation to be established. Story seems to cover weeks, at least. Another Man’s Shoes: The Empty Hand was last year. Andy considers Ng “pretty new” still. Norton has been in Cardiff for weeks. Eye of the Storm: Shortly after Another Man’s Shoes. A Mother’s Son: Months after Eye of the Storm. ScrapeJane: Colchester died a few months ago and Torchwood are now locked out of the Hub. Thoughts and Prayers: Long enough since ScrapeJane for the Committee to do their evil scheming in the Hub. Stranded: 2020. Thoughts and Prayers was a few months ago. So the trick will be stretching Aliens/God Among Us out long enough to make a few months prior to 2020 seem even vaguely credible. Gonna have to be very liberal interpretations in some places. Or Andy just took a blow to the head offscreen which ruined his perception of time. Yup. Welcome to my world. I find it really difficult to see how Series 5/6 can even take place over a full year never mind three. As you say we’ll probably have to be quite liberal with our interpretation of “weeks”. Maybe Andy just got time displaced after Torchwood Soho 🤷♂️
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Post by Ricky on Jan 2, 2022 13:25:38 GMT
Andy mentions having experience in time travel in Parasite, and mentions seeing the new Bond movie in Ashenden, so I assumed that his appearance there was post-Stranded.
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