|
Post by kimalysong on Feb 26, 2016 19:29:29 GMT
Hard not to enjoy a box with David Warner, Jacqueline Pearce, and of course John Hurt. Almost too much awesomeness at once.
But I have to say Cardinal Ollistra is probably my favorite character. Her philosophy is so frustrating yet you can't help but admire her strength. Jacqueline Pearce has a created a wonderfully complex character. I am loving the back and forth between War and Ollistra. Those two have fantastic chemistry.
|
|
|
Post by aemiliapaula on Feb 26, 2016 20:12:21 GMT
John Hurt reciting Homer...squeeee
|
|
|
Post by elkawho on Feb 27, 2016 5:26:12 GMT
Two nights ago I wrote a long post regarding this release and then...didn't press the reply button. So this is my second attempt, but you may be in luck because it probably won't be as long. This set is soo good. I agree with others that, although I loved the first one, I think I like this one more. Dorney, Mulryne and Fitton, you have really done amazing things. Dorney, why do I love EVERYTHING that you write? It goes without saying that John Hurt was fantastic. It really is quite a boon to have him as part of the Doctor Who legacy, AND working with Big Finish. It's the first time I felt that the Time War was as big and epic as it was portrayed in the RTD era. That being said (here comes the controversial part), it is the high quality of this box set that demonstrates to me why the concept of a War Doctor doesn't work. The Doctor IS The Doctor. He does nothing here that would make him be ashamed of that name. In fact, he's the only one that actually fights for a moral center in the carnage. The argument for the War Doctor is that Eight didn't have the personality to do what was necessary. But I can see 8 in these stories. I actually think he's been put in even worse situations. Because when it comes right down to it, the core of this character MUST remain. And if that is the case, what the hell is the point? It's great having John Hurt, but there is no reason not to call him the Ninth Doctor, have Eccleston be the Tenth and so on. So again, my initial problem with the concept remains. A new Doctor stuffed in where there shouldn't be one for no good reason except that Moffat likes to show people how clever he is and overcomplicate things. (And I don't consider myself a runaway Moffat basher in general, but this one never stops bugging me.)
|
|
|
Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Feb 27, 2016 5:32:10 GMT
Saying War isn't not the Doctor isn't controversial. Rather its the central point of the series, rather he thinks he needs to be monstrous in order to fight rather than pull a Doctor and come up with another solution.
|
|
|
Post by elkawho on Feb 27, 2016 5:39:17 GMT
Saying War isn't not the Doctor isn't controversial. Rather its the central point of the series, rather he thinks he needs to be monstrous in order to fight rather than pull a Doctor and come up with another solution. I'm not saying that he isn't the Doctor. Just the opposite, I'm saying that he is and that the idea of a hidden Doctor who shuns the name due to his heinous and shameful actions during the war doesn't work for me as a concept.
|
|
|
Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Feb 27, 2016 5:44:26 GMT
Which is why I honestly think the reason the others shun him is SOLELY the infanticide of using the Moment snd nothing else.
As Clara says, the Doctor would stop when he hears a crying baby, no matter how furious he is, the War Doctor didn't.
|
|
|
Post by elkawho on Feb 27, 2016 5:54:33 GMT
Which is why I honestly think the reason the others shun him is SOLELY the infanticide of using the Moment snd nothing else. As Clara says, the Doctor would stop when he hears a crying baby, no matter how furious he is, the War Doctor didn't. Then 1) he shouldn't give up the name of The Doctor until AFTER he presses The Moment. Until then he's just The Doctor in a war. 2) Ah, but it can be argued that he hears the babies crying on all the other populated planets in the universe and couldn't take it anymore. It was the only option available that would allow him to help them. The fate of the many vs. the fate of the few. Not a good solution, I admit, but one that he thought was necessary at the time.
|
|
|
Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Feb 27, 2016 8:12:55 GMT
I think War thinks he's a monster because of fighting, but isn't, and the others think he's a monster because of infanticide, but he didn't.
|
|
dorney
Big Finish Creative Team
Likes: 3,063
|
Post by dorney on Feb 27, 2016 8:24:06 GMT
Which is why I honestly think the reason the others shun him is SOLELY the infanticide of using the Moment snd nothing else. As Clara says, the Doctor would stop when he hears a crying baby, no matter how furious he is, the War Doctor didn't. Then 1) he shouldn't give up the name of The Doctor until AFTER he presses The Moment. Until then he's just The Doctor in a war. 2) Ah, but it can be argued that he hears the babies crying on all the other populated planets in the universe and couldn't take it anymore. It was the only option available that would allow him to help them. The fate of the many vs. the fate of the few. Not a good solution, I admit, but one that he thought was necessary at the time. I'd argue that the Doctor being a nominal soldier in a war is probably enough for him to not want to use the name. Thanks for the kind words by the way!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2016 9:11:19 GMT
That being said (here comes the controversial part), it is the high quality of this box set that demonstrates to me why the concept of a War Doctor doesn't work. The Doctor IS The Doctor. He does nothing here that would make him be ashamed of that name. In fact, he's the only one that actually fights for a moral center in the carnage. The argument for the War Doctor is that Eight didn't have the personality to do what was necessary. But I can see 8 in these stories. I actually think he's been put in even worse situations. Because when it comes right down to it, the core of this character MUST remain. And if that is the case, what the hell is the point? It's great having John Hurt, but there is no reason not to call him the Ninth Doctor, have Eccleston be the Tenth and so on. So again, my initial problem with the concept remains. A new Doctor stuffed in where there shouldn't be one for no good reason except that Moffat likes to show people how clever he is and overcomplicate things. (And I don't consider myself a runaway Moffat basher in general, but this one never stops bugging me.) I've got to admit that's the bit that bothers me. I do not see the Ninth, Tenth and Eleventh Doctors condemning their predecessor because of a single (albeit cataclysmic incident) incident, particularly the Eleventh Doctor who's moved beyond a large portion of the guilt created by the Time War. I think we saw a glimmering of what the War Doctor ideally would become in To the Death when the Eighth Doctor is pondering whether the initial ruthlessness of his first incarnation is something worth returning to keep the universe safe. Honestly, the David Collings incarnation in Full Fathom Five seems more like what we'd see in the Time War, a Doctor whose conduct has become so twisted by conflict that he lies, cheats and murders to defend others against the Daleks. The Seventh Doctor after all was responsible for a great deal of atrocities in the name of a greater good, but even he became haunted by the choices he made. What if the War Doctor was a step further? The Doctor who showed no remorse for his dubious actions in the name of peace? Who maybe even a sense of pride in his darkest moments, while still retaining some of the fundamental traits we recognise him for? Because I think in order for this concept to truly work you have eventually to turn him into someone who believes necessity knows no law.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2016 9:55:50 GMT
That being said (here comes the controversial part), it is the high quality of this box set that demonstrates to me why the concept of a War Doctor doesn't work. The Doctor IS The Doctor. He does nothing here that would make him be ashamed of that name. In fact, he's the only one that actually fights for a moral center in the carnage. The argument for the War Doctor is that Eight didn't have the personality to do what was necessary. But I can see 8 in these stories. I actually think he's been put in even worse situations. Because when it comes right down to it, the core of this character MUST remain. And if that is the case, what the hell is the point? It's great having John Hurt, but there is no reason not to call him the Ninth Doctor, have Eccleston be the Tenth and so on. So again, my initial problem with the concept remains. A new Doctor stuffed in where there shouldn't be one for no good reason except that Moffat likes to show people how clever he is and overcomplicate things. (And I don't consider myself a runaway Moffat basher in general, but this one never stops bugging me.) I've got to admit that's the bit that bothers me. I do not see the Ninth, Tenth and Eleventh Doctors condemning their predecessor because of a single (albeit cataclysmic incident) incident, particularly the Eleventh Doctor who's moved beyond a large portion of the guilt created by the Time War. I think we saw a glimmering of what the War Doctor ideally would become in To the Death when the Eighth Doctor is pondering whether the initial ruthlessness of his first incarnation is something worth returning to keep the universe safe. Honestly, the David Collings incarnation in Full Fathom Five seems more like what we'd see in the Time War, a Doctor whose conduct has become so twisted by conflict that he lies, cheats and murders to defend others against the Daleks. The Seventh Doctor after all was responsible for a great deal of atrocities in the name of a greater good, but even he became haunted by the choices he made. What if the War Doctor was a step further? The Doctor who showed no remorse for his dubious actions in the name of peace? Who maybe even a sense of pride in his darkest moments, while still retaining some of the fundamental traits we recognise him for? Because I think in order for this concept to truly work you have eventually to turn him into someone who believes necessity knows no law. I think if Big Finish were to act on this well-thought idea here, they would need to do it in a time set before Only the Monstrous, as the War Doctor at this point is already haunted by the unspeakable things he's done in the Time War. He acts maturer now than what he probably was like because of the things he's experienced, and at the same self-loathing. Oh yeah, if we're having these discussions and varied opinions about his character, how exactly did the Elixir of Life in The Night of the Doctor even affect the War Doctor's character? I thought he was supposed to be a hardened warrior.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2016 14:08:06 GMT
I've got to admit that's the bit that bothers me. I do not see the Ninth, Tenth and Eleventh Doctors condemning their predecessor because of a single (albeit cataclysmic incident) incident, particularly the Eleventh Doctor who's moved beyond a large portion of the guilt created by the Time War. I think we saw a glimmering of what the War Doctor ideally would become in To the Death when the Eighth Doctor is pondering whether the initial ruthlessness of his first incarnation is something worth returning to keep the universe safe. Honestly, the David Collings incarnation in Full Fathom Five seems more like what we'd see in the Time War, a Doctor whose conduct has become so twisted by conflict that he lies, cheats and murders to defend others against the Daleks. The Seventh Doctor after all was responsible for a great deal of atrocities in the name of a greater good, but even he became haunted by the choices he made. What if the War Doctor was a step further? The Doctor who showed no remorse for his dubious actions in the name of peace? Who maybe even a sense of pride in his darkest moments, while still retaining some of the fundamental traits we recognise him for? Because I think in order for this concept to truly work you have eventually to turn him into someone who believes necessity knows no law. I think if Big Finish were to act on this well-thought idea here, they would need to do it in a time set before Only the Monstrous, as the War Doctor at this point is already haunted by the unspeakable things he's done in the Time War. He acts maturer now than what he probably was like because of the things he's experienced, and at the same self-loathing. Oh yeah, if we're having these discussions and varied opinions about his character, how exactly did the Elixir of Life in The Night of the Doctor even affect the War Doctor's character? I thought he was supposed to be a hardened warrior. My personal theory has always been that the Elixir was a means of exercising power over the Doctor's new incarnation by binding him to the Sisterhood on Karn. After all, given how close the War eventually got, it'd make sense for them to have an agent to observe and act on their behalf in the proceedings to prevent the Daleks from entering the Kasterborous constellation.As to the Renegade's character? I don't have a theory because the journey between his initial persona and his Grandfather Battlefield persona seem miles apart to be almost unrecognisable, but then so was G'Kar on As to the Renegade's character? I don't have a theory because the journey between his initial persona and his Grandfather Battlefield persona seem miles apart to be almost unrecognisable, but then so was G'Kar on Babylon 5 when all was said and done. Maybe his successors were disappointed rather than ashamed by him. Maybe he had the opportunity once he'd realised his mistake and decreed "No More" to turn himself around, except that at the critical juncture he faltered. He's the Warrior. He's a murderer by nature, even if healer by nurture. It'd be an interesting twist: he is blamed, derided and forgotten by those who come after him because he was true to his own nature, rather than pretending to be someone he was not.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2016 15:04:38 GMT
My physical copy arrived this morning...
Erm... Does anyone else have all three of their CD spines in black and white?
|
|
|
Post by mark687 on Feb 27, 2016 15:14:55 GMT
My physical copy arrived this morning... Erm... Does anyone else have all three of their CD spines in black and white? You mean the Pictures of War Doc on top?
Yes I do
Regards
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2016 17:30:34 GMT
My physical copy arrived this morning... Erm... Does anyone else have all three of their CD spines in black and white? You mean the Pictures of War Doc on top?
Yes I do
Regards
It looks a bit strange having my Only the Monstrous box set in colour alongside my black and white Infernal Devices box set. Wonder why they did that?
|
|
|
Post by elkawho on Feb 27, 2016 18:56:28 GMT
He's a murderer by nature, even if healer by nurture. It'd be an interesting twist: he is blamed, derided and forgotten by those who come after him because he was true to his own nature, rather than pretending to be someone he was not. But he's NOT a murderer by nature. In these last 2 boxed sets he could have taken that route so easily. It is a war, after all. But this he goes out of his way to find a solution that risks the least amount of lives. He's also the only one who wants to save the folks stuck in the weird time loop thing. To be honest, for this concept to play out in a way that would make sense, the character of The Doctor would have to change so fundamentally that I don't know if he could come back from that, both in story and with the audience.
|
|
|
Post by barnabaslives on Feb 27, 2016 21:10:13 GMT
I'm not saying that he isn't the Doctor. Just the opposite, I'm saying that he is and that the idea of a hidden Doctor who shuns the name due to his heinous and shameful actions during the war doesn't work for me as a concept. It's a really good point... I had a major moment listening to this where I said, "Aha, he really is the Doctor we all know and love after all" which was absolutely wonderful, but of course the next logical thing to do does seem to be to wonder why he's so down on himself and his name if he hasn't fundamentally changed. Maybe that is the way it is though and maybe he knows what he's eventually going to have to do and is angry at himself essentially for something he hasn't actually done yet and for not being able to find some other clear course along the way yet? Or could be disdainful of himself because something uncharacteristic that he already did in the past to try to prevent the Time War has already failed? I keep thinking that it makes some sense that The Doctor does know the Time War is on its way and it casts a long shadow backward across his incarnations, making perhaps for not only a change in the Fourth Doctor's tone but also the reputation that Seven has for being manipulative. For me, I think there's a real sense of Seven sometimes tossing others into the fray because he wants others to be able to fend for themselves in the event of his absence, as opposed to the unsavory notion of simply wanting others to fight his battles. Maybe it's telling that The War Doctor so far doesn't seem to me to be terribly keen on the idea of companions as if there is a limit on what he wants to ask of others even (or especially?) under these dire circumstances. Also I think Dorney's response here could well be a viable direction with this. I've been thinking so far that The Doctor must be trying to distance himself from the name purely over something awful that he must have done already by the time of these stories, but he does have a history of having some distance from military matters (adviser to UNIT vs UNIT agent and some obvious disdain for the Brig's way of doing things or for the militaristic misuse of Torchwood, for example). It may also make some sense for him to try to shun the name partly for strategic purposes, just because we all know what happens when the Daleks figure out what The Doctor's latest incarnation looks like. I'm hoping maybe some clarification will come out of the final installment - I really don't know if The War Doctor and the Warrior of the Sevateem are most likely to blow stuff up or philosophize (lots of both I hope) but I think there's great potential there for some heartfelt discussions about ethics that could paint any clearer picture of why The War Doctor is what he is that might still be desirable by then, and I do already consider Leela to be one of the wisest philosophers on Gallifrey.
|
|
|
Post by barnabaslives on Feb 27, 2016 21:43:51 GMT
This shouldn't have been a postscript but re: The Seventh Doctor, I think nothing says you sincerely expect that the universe could soon be one Time Lord short like trying to ship your companion off to Time Lord School. It's almost as if he really does expect something especially terrible is in the making and isn't sure if he should expect to survive it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2016 1:01:58 GMT
I'm not saying that he isn't the Doctor. Just the opposite, I'm saying that he is and that the idea of a hidden Doctor who shuns the name due to his heinous and shameful actions during the war doesn't work for me as a concept. It's a really good point... I had a major moment listening to this where I said, "Aha, he really is the Doctor we all know and love after all" which was absolutely wonderful, but of course the next logical thing to do does seem to be to wonder why he's so down on himself and his name if he hasn't fundamentally changed. Maybe that is the way it is though and maybe he knows what he's eventually going to have to do and is angry at himself essentially for something he hasn't actually done yet and for not being able to find some other clear course along the way yet? Or could be disdainful of himself because something uncharacteristic that he already did in the past to try to prevent the Time War has already failed? I keep thinking that it makes some sense that The Doctor does know the Time War is on its way and it casts a long shadow backward across his incarnations, making perhaps for not only a change in the Fourth Doctor's tone but also the reputation that Seven has for being manipulative. For me, I think there's a real sense of Seven sometimes tossing others into the fray because he wants others to be able to fend for themselves in the event of his absence, as opposed to the unsavory notion of simply wanting others to fight his battles. Maybe it's telling that The War Doctor so far doesn't seem to me to be terribly keen on the idea of companions as if there is a limit on what he wants to ask of others even (or especially?) under these dire circumstances. Also I think Dorney's response here could well be a viable direction with this. I've been thinking so far that The Doctor must be trying to distance himself from the name purely over something awful that he must have done already by the time of these stories, but he does have a history of having some distance from military matters (adviser to UNIT vs UNIT agent and some obvious disdain for the Brig's way of doing things or for the militaristic misuse of Torchwood, for example). It may also make some sense for him to try to shun the name partly for strategic purposes, just because we all know what happens when the Daleks figure out what The Doctor's latest incarnation looks like. I'm hoping maybe some clarification will come out of the final installment - I really don't know if The War Doctor and the Warrior of the Sevateem are most likely to blow stuff up or philosophize (lots of both I hope) but I think there's great potential there for some heartfelt discussions about ethics that could paint any clearer picture of why The War Doctor is what he is that might still be desirable by then, and I do already consider Leela to be one of the wisest philosophers on Gallifrey. That's very true. I haven't listened to the boxsets themselves yet, I'm just critiquing the core concept (i.e. What we saw in The Day of the Doctor and The Night of the Doctor). The amount of talent behind Only the Monstrous and Infernal Devices is staggering, so I'll probably check it out eventually when I have the cash. Nevertheless, Dorney definitely has a point. Names do have power, even aliases like the Doctor. This shouldn't have been a postscript but re: The Seventh Doctor, I think nothing says you sincerely expect that the universe could soon be one Time Lord short like trying to ship your companion off to Time Lord School. It's almost as if he really does expect something especially terrible is in the making and isn't sure if he should expect to survive it. Eighth Man Bound. Towards the end of the New Adventures, he was having a midlife crisis and was really frightened of the fact that maybe this time he won't regenerate. Maybe this time he'll die. Maybe he deserves to die. It tied into how he was manipulated into believing the Sixth Doctor died: a murder-suicide of the first rank as Sixy describes it. Now, whether or not that's true is up for debate. Head Games is in the title of the book after all. In truth, the Seventh Doctor seemed to have access to quite a lot of information about Gallifrey's past that he previously kept under wraps, including the Time Wars that had already been waged (i.e. probably the Black Sun War and the temporal arms race against the Charon, respectively). Perhaps he thought that Gallifrey's more active role in the universe might start something that they eventually couldn't stop? Alternatively, there's a running theory floating around that the Time Lords' Second War in Heaven with the Enemy crippled them in such a way that, when they were eventually restored by the Eighth Doctor, they were still in a weak enough position for them to be targeted by the Daleks (who were probably significantly strengthened in their absence) and other temporal powers.
|
|
|
Post by seeley on Feb 28, 2016 7:55:40 GMT
Re War's ignominy: To my mind, his great "crime" is that of hopelessness. The other Doctors aren't warriors because they believe there's a better way. They may occasionally take extreme measures (e.g. Seeds of Death, Remembrance of the Daleks,) but these are aberrations.
The War Doctor doesn't believe there's a better way. He may even be right. But his successors can't come to terms with an outlook so antithetical to their own.
John Hurt's incarnation, is, I think, the only one that would scoff at the notion that "where there's life, there's hope."
|
|