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Post by Timelord007 on Feb 28, 2016 9:05:47 GMT
I've just finished listening to this & what a AWESOME box set.
Volume 2 delivers a epic with strong storytelling from writer's John Dorney Phil Mulryne & Matt Fitton which deal with the true horrors of war & the insane lengths people go too in trying to achieve victory.
John Hurt is simply magnificent, he's giving a excellent performance as the War Doctor while Jacqueline Pearce is wickedly superb as Cardinal Ollistra, her scenes with John Hurt are played magnificently.
Most of all i like how the story doesn't give us a syrupy conclusion & plays to the strengths that in war nobody truly wins.
Big Finish did what Hell Bent failed to do & produce a strongly written drama that doesn't cop out with the payoff.
Timelord Rating. 10/10
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Post by kastoniago on Feb 28, 2016 11:46:46 GMT
I admit the idea of the War Doctor and actually what we got of the War Doctor from Day of the Doctors appear to be two conflicting ideas. The former implied to be a man who would make the decisions that the 'real' Doctor couldn't and as a result was forced to commit heinous crimes during the Time War. Whereas the latter is just a Doctor who thinks that he isn't the Doctor and think he is a monster, this being the version that Big Finish are portraying on audio.
My interpretation of the War Doctor that I've got from the audios is that we're just seeing him at the latter end of the Time War. He's already experienced centuries of conflict and now he's old for his incarnation, he has to live with the decisions he's made. I don't think the War Doctor we've had on audio is the same man whose fought the Time War all those years. I think the younger War Doctor was more akin to the version that we were expecting. I expect he was a head-strong, efficient soldier, more willing and even keen to live up to the warrior title that he bestowed upon himself when he regenerated. He's fought and killed hundreds, committed genocide several times over, performed acts that will make future Doctors look away with shame and disappointment. But by the time he's gotten to the events of Only the Monstrous, he's guilt-ridden, ashamed and has since realised that he was wrong to court warfare so enthusiastically, and he thus dubbed himself a monster for it.
I admit, I would have liked to hear this idea of a Doctor who was willing to make the more brutal decisions as a first resort in war, but I can see why Big Finish would make the decision to play it safe and give us the version already established on-screen. But I do feel that we are only getting to see the final chapter of his life story, when we could have been given the opportunity to see the journey that the War Doctor was forced to go on before he had his epiphany. We're seeing the man who views himself as a monster, but with no context as to why he hates himself.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2016 21:04:20 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2016 21:40:18 GMT
I admit the idea of the War Doctor and actually what we got of the War Doctor from Day of the Doctors appear to be two conflicting ideas. The former implied to be a man who would make the decisions that the 'real' Doctor couldn't and as a result was forced to commit heinous crimes during the Time War. Whereas the latter is just a Doctor who thinks that he isn't the Doctor and think he is a monster, this being the version that Big Finish are portraying on audio.
My interpretation of the War Doctor that I've got from the audios is that we're just seeing him at the latter end of the Time War. He's already experienced centuries of conflict and now he's old for his incarnation, he has to live with the decisions he's made. I don't think the War Doctor we've had on audio is the same man whose fought the Time War all those years. I think the younger War Doctor was more akin to the version that we were expecting. I expect he was a head-strong, efficient soldier, more willing and even keen to live up to the warrior title that he bestowed upon himself when he regenerated. He's fought and killed hundreds, committed genocide several times over, performed acts that will make future Doctors look away with shame and disappointment. But by the time he's gotten to the events of Only the Monstrous, he's guilt-ridden, ashamed and has since realised that he was wrong to court warfare so enthusiastically, and he thus dubbed himself a monster for it.
I admit, I would have liked to hear this idea of a Doctor who was willing to make the more brutal decisions as a first resort in war, but I can see why Big Finish would make the decision to play it safe and give us the version already established on-screen. But I do feel that we are only getting to see the final chapter of his life story, when we could have been given the opportunity to see the journey that the War Doctor was forced to go on before he had his epiphany. We're seeing the man who views himself as a monster, but with no context as to why he hates himself. It's seeing the destination without experiencing the journey. With the Eighth Doctor, we've seen him since his birth in San Francisco, we've witnessed the remarkable changes in his character for good and ill as he's grown old, cynical and lost his wide-eyed idealistic spark. It's why him pressing the button to wipe out Gallifrey made so much sense because we knew how much he had changed as a person. John Hurt's incarnation not so much. I know it's early days yet, but I hope it's something that someone (whether it's the wonderful Big Finish people or the BBC) addresses at some point because otherwise the whole damn thing just falls apart like wet paper.
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Post by icecreamdf on Feb 29, 2016 4:06:03 GMT
I think something important to remember is that we know that the War Doctor has done terrible things because the Doctor told us he did. However, the Doctor is incredibly harsh on himself. He never really stopped being the Doctor. He had too make tough choices sometimes, but he always tried to do the right thing. It just made it easier for the Doctor to make hard choices if he pretended that he was somebody else.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 29, 2016 5:34:42 GMT
I think something important to remember is that we know that the War Doctor has done terrible things because the Doctor told us he did. However, the Doctor is incredibly harsh on himself. He never really stopped being the Doctor. He had to make tough choices sometimes, but he always tried to do the right thing. It just made it easier for the Doctor to make hard choices if he pretended that he was somebody else. You can certainly see elements of that in the Twelfth Doctor's exchange with Ashildr: It's not something I'm a fan of personally because it opens up a whole unintentional can of worms about "the Doctor" being an aspirational state of idolatry (and some incarnations not measuring up to expectations), but there's definitely evidence to support the theory. The thing is though, it extends beyond cattish banter like "a dandy and a clown", "fancypants" into a serious rejection of his own self. It may just be my personal interpretation, but I think the Doctor more often than not tends to own his mistakes. You look at The Face of Evil where he discovers that he himself is responsible for Xoanon, he immediately tries to set things right and after kidnapping Ian and Barbara he did eventually try to get them back home again to England in the twentieth century. If you want to look at NuWho, the Ninth and Tenth Doctor (up until Day, at least) owned the fact that they were responsible for the destruction of their homeworld. This rejection (to me at least) seems antithetical to the characters we have seen up until this point, so I think it had to be something pretty dire in order for them to reject an entire incarnation off-hand. I never thought about it until now, but it really does clash with the shellshocked Doctor we see in the RTD era.
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Post by elkawho on Feb 29, 2016 19:31:21 GMT
I think something important to remember is that we know that the War Doctor has done terrible things because the Doctor told us he did. However, the Doctor is incredibly harsh on himself. He never really stopped being the Doctor. He had to make tough choices sometimes, but he always tried to do the right thing. It just made it easier for the Doctor to make hard choices if he pretended that he was somebody else. You can certainly see elements of that in the Twelfth Doctor's exchange with Ashildr: It's not something I'm a fan of personally because it opens up a whole unintentional can of worms about "the Doctor" being an aspirational state of idolatry (and some incarnations not measuring up to expectations), but there's definitely evidence to support the theory. The thing is though, it extends beyond cattish banter like "a dandy and a clown", "fancypants" into a serious rejection of his own self. It may just be my personal interpretation, but I think the Doctor more often than not tends to own his mistakes. You look at The Face of Evil where he discovers that he himself is responsible for Xoanon, he immediately tries to set things right and after kidnapping Ian and Barbara he did eventually try to get them back home again to England in the twentieth century. If you want to look at NuWho, the Ninth and Tenth Doctor (up until Day, at least) owned the fact that they were responsible for the destruction of their homeworld. This rejection (to me at least) seems antithetical to the characters we have seen up until this point, so I think it had to be something pretty dire in order for them to reject an entire incarnation off-hand. I never thought about it until now, but it really does clash with the shellshocked Doctor we see in the RTD era. Yes, that's one of the many problems I have with the concept. The Doctor has never been one to run away from his mistakes. He owns them, learns from them. It makes up a large part of who he is as a character in all of his incarnations. The War Doctor tells Rejoice in the first set that he feels partly responsible for the Time War because of events in Genesis Of The Daleks. To have The Doctor try and deny who he is and what he has had to do goes against so much of what we know about him. In addition, I always thought that idea of the post-War Doctor trying to get by in the universe without the Time Lords and trying to come to terms with his actions was compelling. What happened in DOTD negates pretty much the entire RTD era, and that really bothers me.
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Post by icecreamdf on Feb 29, 2016 20:00:13 GMT
You can certainly see elements of that in the Twelfth Doctor's exchange with Ashildr: It's not something I'm a fan of personally because it opens up a whole unintentional can of worms about "the Doctor" being an aspirational state of idolatry (and some incarnations not measuring up to expectations), but there's definitely evidence to support the theory. The thing is though, it extends beyond cattish banter like "a dandy and a clown", "fancypants" into a serious rejection of his own self. It may just be my personal interpretation, but I think the Doctor more often than not tends to own his mistakes. You look at The Face of Evil where he discovers that he himself is responsible for Xoanon, he immediately tries to set things right and after kidnapping Ian and Barbara he did eventually try to get them back home again to England in the twentieth century. If you want to look at NuWho, the Ninth and Tenth Doctor (up until Day, at least) owned the fact that they were responsible for the destruction of their homeworld. This rejection (to me at least) seems antithetical to the characters we have seen up until this point, so I think it had to be something pretty dire in order for them to reject an entire incarnation off-hand. I never thought about it until now, but it really does clash with the shellshocked Doctor we see in the RTD era. Yes, that's one of the many problems I have with the concept. The Doctor has never been one to run away from his mistakes. He owns them, learns from them. It makes up a large part of who he is as a character in all of his incarnations. The War Doctor tells Rejoice in the first set that he feels partly responsible for the Time War because of events in Genesis Of The Daleks. To have The Doctor try and deny who he is and what he has had to do goes against so much of what we know about him. In addition, I always thought that idea of the post-War Doctor trying to get by in the universe without the Time Lords and trying to come to terms with his actions was compelling. What happened in DOTD negates pretty much the entire RTD era, and that really bothers me. The Doctor has never denied that he and the War Doctor are the same person. He takes full credit for War's actions in the war. There was a moment in Day of the Doctor where Eleven tells the War Doctor that "the day you destroyed Gallifrey" must be pretty recent, before Ten corrects him and says "the day we destroyed Gallifrey." When they say that War isn't the Doctor, they don't mean that he is a different person and they are not responsible for his actions. They mean that his actions were unworthy of the the title of Doctor, and they feel so ashamed of what they did that they find it difficult to even acknowledge that incarnation's exist.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 29, 2016 21:39:13 GMT
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Feb 29, 2016 22:04:17 GMT
So why do they hate him? Easy. He hates himself.
It's implied in "The Innocent" he blew up a refugee fleet to destroy a few Daleks. If that's just a day at the office for him....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2016 0:18:15 GMT
You can certainly see elements of that in the Twelfth Doctor's exchange with Ashildr: It's not something I'm a fan of personally because it opens up a whole unintentional can of worms about "the Doctor" being an aspirational state of idolatry (and some incarnations not measuring up to expectations), but there's definitely evidence to support the theory. The thing is though, it extends beyond cattish banter like "a dandy and a clown", "fancypants" into a serious rejection of his own self. It may just be my personal interpretation, but I think the Doctor more often than not tends to own his mistakes. You look at The Face of Evil where he discovers that he himself is responsible for Xoanon, he immediately tries to set things right and after kidnapping Ian and Barbara he did eventually try to get them back home again to England in the twentieth century. If you want to look at NuWho, the Ninth and Tenth Doctor (up until Day, at least) owned the fact that they were responsible for the destruction of their homeworld. This rejection (to me at least) seems antithetical to the characters we have seen up until this point, so I think it had to be something pretty dire in order for them to reject an entire incarnation off-hand. I never thought about it until now, but it really does clash with the shellshocked Doctor we see in the RTD era. Yes, that's one of the many problems I have with the concept. The Doctor has never been one to run away from his mistakes. He owns them, learns from them. It makes up a large part of who he is as a character in all of his incarnations. The War Doctor tells Rejoice in the first set that he feels partly responsible for the Time War because of events in Genesis Of The Daleks. To have The Doctor try and deny who he is and what he has had to do goes against so much of what we know about him. In addition, I always thought that idea of the post-War Doctor trying to get by in the universe without the Time Lords and trying to come to terms with his actions was compelling. What happened in DOTD negates pretty much the entire RTD era, and that really bothers me. Same here, which is probably why I'm looking so closely into why the War Doctor as a concept just doesn't work for me. The muting of the RTD era actually makes The Day of the Doctor really uncomfortable to watch for me because that's five years of the programme (five years I grew up with) which has just been trampled all over. It may have been for the best of intentions, but it really doesn't feel that way. It's one of a handful of stories ( Who and otherwise) which I just outright hate for what it does. Yes, that's one of the many problems I have with the concept. The Doctor has never been one to run away from his mistakes. He owns them, learns from them. It makes up a large part of who he is as a character in all of his incarnations. The War Doctor tells Rejoice in the first set that he feels partly responsible for the Time War because of events in Genesis Of The Daleks. To have The Doctor try and deny who he is and what he has had to do goes against so much of what we know about him. In addition, I always thought that idea of the post-War Doctor trying to get by in the universe without the Time Lords and trying to come to terms with his actions was compelling. What happened in DOTD negates pretty much the entire RTD era, and that really bothers me. The Doctor has never denied that he and the War Doctor are the same person. He takes full credit for War's actions in the war. There was a moment in Day of the Doctor where Eleven tells the War Doctor that "the day you destroyed Gallifrey" must be pretty recent, before Ten corrects him and says "the day we destroyed Gallifrey." When they say that War isn't the Doctor, they don't mean that he is a different person and they are not responsible for his actions. They mean that his actions were unworthy of the title of Doctor, and they feel so ashamed of what they did that they find it difficult to even acknowledge that incarnation's exist. I really did like that little exchange with the personal pronouns where Ten corrected Eleven from "you" to "we", but it does point out that his Eleventh incarnation has become so far removed from events that he actually doesn't take responsibility. Otherwise, he would have said "we" on instinct as well. Primarily, because I think he believes it's no longer important. He's the kneejerk reaction to Ten in the same way that Eight was to Seven, Eleven is ultimately a Doctor that just wants to belong somewhere. Hence, his repeat trips to the Ponds. Wow. Okay, hang on. What if it's just the Eleventh Doctor who rejects him? Think about it. From memory, the Tenth Doctor more often than not just sits quietly and doesn't really comment on John Hurt's incarnation and considering what he's gone through he's very quick to accept that he was the Doctor. It'd certainly mesh together with a little bit more ease if Nine and Ten had acknowledged him right up until Matt Smith's iteration. He stops regretting, things go well, then Trenzalore happens. The Doctor becomes acutely aware of his own mortality and then the resentment starts to build within him. He resents War because he took away the one home he could return to, the one place where he thinks he would belong above all others. So he doesn't just bury him in his memories like Ten did, but he strips him of what little remains as punishment for what he's done.
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Post by elkawho on Mar 1, 2016 3:11:46 GMT
Same here, which is probably why I'm looking so closely into why the War Doctor as a concept just doesn't work for me. The muting of the RTD era actually makes The Day of the Doctor really uncomfortable to watch for me because that's five years of the programme (five years I grew up with) which has just been trampled all over. It may have been for the best of intentions, but it really doesn't feel that way. It's one of a handful of stories ( Who and otherwise) which I just outright hate for what it does. I really did like that little exchange with the personal pronouns where Ten corrected Eleven from "you" to "we", but it does point out that his Eleventh incarnation has become so far removed from events that he actually doesn't take responsibility. Otherwise, he would have said "we" on instinct as well. Primarily, because I think he believes it's no longer important. He's the kneejerk reaction to Ten in the same way that Eight was to Seven, Eleven is ultimately a Doctor that just wants to belong somewhere. Hence, his repeat trips to the Ponds. Wow. Okay, hang on. What if it's just the Eleventh Doctor who rejects him? Think about it. From memory, the Tenth Doctor more often than not just sits quietly and doesn't really comment on John Hurt's incarnation and considering what he's gone through he's very quick to accept that he was the Doctor. It'd certainly mesh together with a little bit more ease if Nine and Ten had acknowledged him right up until Matt Smith's iteration. He stops regretting, things go well, then Trenzalore happens. The Doctor becomes acutely aware of his own mortality and then the resentment starts to build within him. He resents War because he took away the one home he could return to, the one place where he thinks he would belong above all others. So he doesn't just bury him in his memories like Ten did, but he strips him of what little remains as punishment for what he's done. wolfie, you and I are of similar minds on this. I feel the same way about what DOTD does to the RTD era. I really like you're theory about 11 being the one that rejects War. The only problem with that is why then didn't Nine call himself 10 if he wasn't going to reject his previous incarnation? But it's a very good theory.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2016 9:57:31 GMT
Well, I enjoyed this. If I'm honest, though, I think I preferred the first set. It had an overall style of story-telling that seemed to run at a different pace than many other releases, exclusive to The War Doctor's weary disposition and the epic umberella of the Time War. While this second set was good, it was more reminiscent of the style of other 'box-set spectaculars' like Doom Coalition, or Dark Eyes. John Hurt is excellent - that is a given really, Jacqueline Pearce is tremendous, but David Warner I felt was wasted.
Still, I'm subscribed to the rest of The War Doctor to date and don't regret that. Looking forward to more.
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Post by Ela on Mar 8, 2016 17:58:17 GMT
I listened to this over the weekend. Enjoyed it, but so far, I think I liked the first set more, also. I'm going to re-listen, though.
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
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Post by aztec on Mar 9, 2016 17:00:35 GMT
Really liked this (especially Dorney's episode), not sure if I liked it more than Only The Monstrous, I'll have to relisten...
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Mar 16, 2016 5:09:06 GMT
Funny to think that by the time these box sets are completed, along with the 50th Anniversary special, John Hurt would have spent more time playing the Doctor than did CE as the 9th incarnation of the character.
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Post by mark687 on Mar 16, 2016 10:00:58 GMT
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Post by TinDogPodcast on Mar 17, 2016 8:08:47 GMT
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Post by eric009 on Mar 19, 2016 19:31:55 GMT
first box set 10 of 10 second one 9 1/2 of 10 so very good so far just a dam shame we have to wait for the other 2 box set 1 of 10
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2016 16:30:19 GMT
I was a little disappointed by Ollistra's characterisation. In the first box set, she is the careful arch manipulator of The Doctor - ensuring his continued presence in the fight - but Infernal Devices had her being more overt and less subtle, even trying to bring him to 'heel' at the end!
It's still a great set, but a little bit disappointing.
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