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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 10:46:11 GMT
Again, are we discussing the broader relationship between JNT-Saward or what was happening behind-the-scenes specifically in regards to Revelation? Both. I was responding to Daver's two points that "JNT and Saward thought" and "JNT and Saward did.." when discussing the end of Revelation when by then there was no "JNT and Saward" - they were very much not acting with one voice long before then. Ah, see I was talking about Revelation specifically. Your comment resembled quite strongly the hullabaloo regarding what happened at the end, hence the question. Whatever, in any case, I'm always an advocate of Death of the Author and subjective truths. Intent or not, I find it has a twinkle. ^_^ To answer Nucleus' actual question, yes I quite like the choppy abrupt ending. The sting into the credits really helped. Yet it's kinda impossible to discuss without the politics behind it. The ratings were almost exactly what they had been under Davison so cliffhanger or not, Powell and Grade wanted the show off. The show never had a chance. To this day there's a fallacy that Colin flopped in the ratings but he beat the average for even Davison's much publicised Season 20. More people watched Colin than watched Peter's "A returning character every story" anniversary season. But the behemoth that was Eastenders was in development and a lot of shows were cancelled or rested to build the Albert Square set at great cost. Who was one of the victims though it was only for 18 months according to Auntie. Though as we now know from the Trials And Tribulations doc it was - according to JNT and others including Ian Levine - never the intention of the Beeb to bring it back the next year hence the Doctor In Distress and the Sun campaign etc. The show was off for good as far as those making it knew. The cliffhanger was not gonna play a part in saving the show though even if Saward and Colin mock it now and it is the proverbial bringing a knife to a gunfight...at least it was well intentioned from JNT. What did bring the show back? No one thing IMO. The public outcry, the ratings being reviewed, international sales being an all time high (this was the heyday of PBS showing Who), BBC Worldwide crunching the numbers on revenue....or maybe they weren't lying and the show was indeed always coming back on air. Of course a few years later the Beeb learned from the bad PR. Post S26 they just...stopped making Who. By then the ratings were awful. The scheduling wasn't giving it a chance. Yet they never cancelled it, never put it to rest. They just stopped telling the team to make new Who. By then JNT and Cartmel realised that rather than "cliffhangers", this one seemed final so signing off with a statement overdubbed by McCoy in ADR, was a more dignified way to go. Come on Ace...we've got work to do indeed. By 1989 sales of back catalogue Who and the massive growth of VHS meant they could monetise Who without actually making it. Stations like PBS wanted Tom and Jon anyway - not Sylv. No ending was gonna save that last series sadly. A shame as S26 is the best in a looooong time. Remember: None of this was known to the viewer at the time. Regardless of being a fan or not, this was way before accumulated knowledge from retrospective interviews. It seemed more of an open ending. Frozen at an end of season point of an ongoing narrative and leaving viewers hoping that it would continue at some point. Season conclusions did not typically end on such a note. It seemed at the time designed by Saward and Turner to give viewers the impression of an abrupt break in the series. A subtle political point made, perhaps. I am emphasising here from the perspective of one who watched at the time, without hindsight. I feel that undue emphasis is being given to the nuances of that scene. Watching then, it seemed deliberate that JNT and Saward wanted viewers to feel invested in the future of the series and to hope this was indeed merely a 'pause' button freeze frame, and not the end of the series. What was the hiatus like between the two seasons at the time, from your perspective? The general ethos of the Doctor and the series?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 11:45:57 GMT
Of course, what Colin really said in that cliffhanger was “I’ll take you to bE GETTING A NEW COSTUME WITH ME”, as if it could be any more obvious.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 21:39:42 GMT
What was the hiatus like between the two seasons at the time, from your perspective? The general ethos of the Doctor and the series? My memories of this period was a disappointment that the BBC ceased broadcasting repeats from this point during seasons. I had no video recorder initially but was frustrated by the fact that I had an off air recording of the Five Doctors from when we had one rented. As of early 1986, we purchased one, and I started to buy the releases of Pyramids of Mars, Seeds of Death, Revenge of the Cybermen and Robots of Death. All saved by pocket money in my ceramic Police Box and generous contributions from parents (at £25 a tape, that's over £50 each in today's money, bar Revenge). The only real news was via DWM, as the press only started reporting once Bonnie Langford was announced - presenting the unfortunate Peter Pan and corpulent Colin Baker on stage harness photo-shoot. He clearly seemed to have spent his time enjoying his passion for real ale during his paid(?) leave. For all the talk of the rest being and opportunity to come back better than before, the news from DWM could not hide the sense that the series was being cut down. The reduction in episode length to 25 but remaining a 14 part series. The Slipback radio play reached me by way of DWM previewing and reviewing it as per televised stories and was not exactly glowing. The BBC broadcast the Peter Cushing films on consecutive Saturdays after Saturday Superstore, which were the sole broadcasts of Doctor Who during this period. Outside of the fan club and convention loop, I felt that it was a very long hiatus, and that there was a sense that when the series did return, that one should merely be grateful that it was allowed back at all. There was no sense that it was coming back in anything other than with clipped wings, as DWM noted that there must be less violence (realism?) and that there mas no increase in budget, as far as I can remember being reported. So, it felt less like the series being 'rested' for it's own good, but being given a long period in detention, for poor behaviour. That was the key impression I had of the progress towards season 23.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 22:04:04 GMT
Again, are we discussing the broader relationship between JNT-Saward or what was happening behind-the-scenes specifically in regards to Revelation? Both. I was responding to Daver's two points that "JNT and Saward thought" and "JNT and Saward did.." when discussing the end of Revelation when by then there was no "JNT and Saward" - they were very much not acting with one voice long before then. Not being specific here Davy. Just a shorthand referencing of the production team, who were indeed Saward and Turner, however uncommunicative they were at the time. This was not public knowledge then, and I cannot see who else to lay the scripting and editing decisions of the end of Revelation to.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 22:25:04 GMT
What was the hiatus like between the two seasons at the time, from your perspective? The general ethos of the Doctor and the series? My memories of this period was a disappointment that the BBC ceased broadcasting repeats from this point during seasons. I had no video recorder initially but was frustrated by the fact that I had an off air recording of the Five Doctors from when we had one rented. As of early 1986, we purchased one, and I started to buy the releases of Pyramids of Mars, Seeds of Death, Revenge of the Cybermen and Robots of Death. All saved by pocket money in my ceramic Police Box and generous contributions from parents (at £25 a tape, that's over £50 each in today's money, bar Revenge). The only real news was via DWM, as the press only started reporting once Bonnie Langford was announced - presenting the unfortunate Peter Pan and corpulent Colin Baker on stage harness photo-shoot. He clearly seemed to have spent his time enjoying his passion for real ale during his paid(?) leave. For all the talk of the rest being and opportunity to come back better than before, the news from DWM could not hide the sense that the series was being cut down. The reduction in episode length to 25 but remaining a 14 part series. The Slipback radio play reached me by way of DWM previewing and reviewing it as per televised stories and was not exactly glowing. The BBC broadcast the Peter Cushing films on consecutive Saturdays after Saturday Superstore, which were the sole broadcasts of Doctor Who during this period. Outside of the fan club and convention loop, I felt that it was a very long hiatus, and that there was a sense that when the series did return, that one should merely be grateful that it was allowed back at all. There was no sense that it was coming back in anything other than with clipped wings, as DWM noted that there must be less violence (realism?) and that there mas no increase in budget, as far as I can remember being reported. So, it felt less like the series being 'rested' for it's own good, but being given a long period in detention, for poor behaviour. That was the key impression I had of the progress towards season 23. That's how I recall it too. Also, and this may not be connected, but it was around this time the Doctor Who annuals petered out. I think Colin had one, but that was it. The Doctor Who annuals had been a staple up until then as far as I remember - as had the series. There really was the creeping feeling that the show, that had been on air every year for 22 years which was longer than my life at that time, was slipping away. Not a happy time.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 22:46:59 GMT
My memories of this period was a disappointment that the BBC ceased broadcasting repeats from this point during seasons. I had no video recorder initially but was frustrated by the fact that I had an off air recording of the Five Doctors from when we had one rented. As of early 1986, we purchased one, and I started to buy the releases of Pyramids of Mars, Seeds of Death, Revenge of the Cybermen and Robots of Death. All saved by pocket money in my ceramic Police Box and generous contributions from parents (at £25 a tape, that's over £50 each in today's money, bar Revenge). The only real news was via DWM, as the press only started reporting once Bonnie Langford was announced - presenting the unfortunate Peter Pan and corpulent Colin Baker on stage harness photo-shoot. He clearly seemed to have spent his time enjoying his passion for real ale during his paid(?) leave. For all the talk of the rest being and opportunity to come back better than before, the news from DWM could not hide the sense that the series was being cut down. The reduction in episode length to 25 but remaining a 14 part series. The Slipback radio play reached me by way of DWM previewing and reviewing it as per televised stories and was not exactly glowing. The BBC broadcast the Peter Cushing films on consecutive Saturdays after Saturday Superstore, which were the sole broadcasts of Doctor Who during this period. Outside of the fan club and convention loop, I felt that it was a very long hiatus, and that there was a sense that when the series did return, that one should merely be grateful that it was allowed back at all. There was no sense that it was coming back in anything other than with clipped wings, as DWM noted that there must be less violence (realism?) and that there mas no increase in budget, as far as I can remember being reported. So, it felt less like the series being 'rested' for it's own good, but being given a long period in detention, for poor behaviour. That was the key impression I had of the progress towards season 23. That's how I recall it too. Also, and this may not be connected, but it was around this time the Doctor Who annuals petered out. I think Colin had one, but that was it. The Doctor Who annuals had been a staple up until then as far as I remember - as had the series. There really was the creeping feeling that the show, that had been on air every year for 22 years which was longer than my life at that time, was slipping away. Not a happy time. Spot on. I got Colin's second and last annual (1986) and treasured it as there was so little coming out bar Target novels at the time. It was this 18 month period that cemented my lifelong 'obsession' with the show. Edit of above: I also got Day of the Daleks this period too, via Sheffield Space Centre (£25). Fans today have no idea what it was like to have to save newspaper clippings (collected by considerate friends too) as a source of Dr Who material, as it seemed to be fading away right at the point that it began to seem so much more important to me. Sad eh? But that's life - we all have to have some form of hobby, and that's what the show became to me - a collecting thing, when there was nothing guaranteed on screen at the time. I blame Michael Grade for all of this long term expenditure..
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2018 1:07:32 GMT
That's how I recall it too. Also, and this may not be connected, but it was around this time the Doctor Who annuals petered out. I think Colin had one, but that was it. The Doctor Who annuals had been a staple up until then as far as I remember - as had the series. There really was the creeping feeling that the show, that had been on air every year for 22 years which was longer than my life at that time, was slipping away. Not a happy time. Spot on. I got Colin's second and last annual (1986) and treasured it as there was so little coming out bar Target novels at the time. It was this 18 month period that cemented my lifelong 'obsession' with the show. Edit of above: I also got Day of the Daleks this period too, via Sheffield Space Centre (£25). Fans today have no idea what it was like to have to save newspaper clippings (collected by considerate friends too) as a source of Dr Who material, as it seemed to be fading away right at the point that it began to seem so much more important to me. Sad eh? But that's life - we all have to have some form of hobby, and that's what the show became to me - a collecting thing, when there was nothing guaranteed on screen at the time. I blame Michael Grade for all of this long term expenditure.. I think the hiatus might've been part of what initially drew me to Sixie during the Wilderness Years. Stepping back into the mid-80s with absolutely no knowledge of what was going on, it felt like a very tangible mystery. The kind of thing that a kid's mind really enjoys teasing out. Something had happened, but with nothing initially to go on, it was impossible to say. I can still remember the extrapolation I made from an illustrated diary we had on the shelf. There were two images on either side -- one of The Mysterious Planet and Mindwarp, both with captions. Only knowing stories like The Deadly Assassin, I thought the Doctor had just been arrested by the Chancellery Guard as a thief and Peri was hidden away on Gallifrey with some Outlers (Yrcarnos and Dorf, as it turned out). Turned out I was way off the mark, but I still really enjoyed the theorising and speculation. Filling in what had been left unsaid (or unproduced in this case). It was like a museum where everything was draped under a cloth and you couldn't help but guess before you could look at it.
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Post by Ela on Sept 30, 2018 17:43:10 GMT
I do, divorced from all the behind-the-scenes drama, like the sudden cut off of ''I'll take you to-'' I feel, in an odd way, it just perfectly sums up the show and its unpredictability. Even the fact that it's so sudden and choppy feels very inkeeping with Classic Who. Anybody else agree? Or would you have prefered Colin say ''to Blackpool''?
I have to admit I never really thought about it when I first saw the episode. I didn't know about the politics till much later.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2018 19:26:51 GMT
I didn't - and still haven't - given much thought about it either! It's irrelevant to me whether Colin says Blackpool or not.
I don't think the politics of it all reached me over here in Ireland until a long time afterwards. We could tune our TV's to get BBC1 (Well, the NI version anyway.) but internal BBC politics and Doctor Who programming decisions wouldn't have been newsworthy events here.
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