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Post by jasonward on Oct 5, 2018 19:29:19 GMT
To conflate Nazism with Communism as both evil is rather strange. Nazism has as an ideology has notion of superiority and inferiority baked right into it, it supports from the get go the idea that treating as inhuman anyone not of the correct "whatever" as OK, even good. Communism does not. Communism starts with the principle we are all equal or should be. That is not to say that evil things have not been done in the name of communism, but equally evil things have been done in the name of democracy.
Am in a good mood so i wont enter a big argument it didn’t work in China it didn’t work in Russia the only way it would work is removing humanity from the face of the planet. Millions dead more than the Nazis killed far far more.Communism failed its principles for the good its practical application by humans a total failure Hmmmm, like I said, evil has been done in the name of communism, and as far as I can tell, communism as practised in Soviet Russia and China is unsustainable and was only sustained over many years by the brutal suppression of people. But communism in of itself does not support these things, communism in isolation is egalitarian in its world view, but it seems human reality is not, and the humans who tried to force this on everyone acted in many undoubted evil ways. But as an ideology, it seems misguided to me, wrong even, to describe Communism as evil in the same way as Nazism is.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2018 19:30:57 GMT
Am in a good mood so i wont enter a big argument it didn’t work in China it didn’t work in Russia the only way it would work is removing humanity from the face of the planet. Millions dead more than the Nazis killed far far more.Communism failed its principles for the good its practical application by humans a total failure Hmmmm, like I said, evil has been done in the name of communism, and as far as I can tell, communism as practised in Soviet Russia and China is unsustainable and was only sustained over many years by the brutal suppression of people. But communism in of itself does not support these things, communism in isolation is egalitarian in its world view, but it seems human reality is not, and the humans who tried to force this on everyone acted in many undoubted evil ways. But as an ideology, it seems misguided to me, wrong even, to describe Communism as evil in the same way as Nazism is. Yes Jason as i said it could only work if Human race wasn’t involved in it am sure in 2O years or so it will be seen as an evil or i hope it will
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2018 19:31:24 GMT
To conflate Nazism with Communism as both evil is rather strange. Nazism has as an ideology has notion of superiority and inferiority baked right into it, it supports from the get go the idea that treating as inhuman anyone not of the correct "whatever" as OK, even good. Communism does not. Communism starts with the principle we are all equal or should be. That is not to say that evil things have not been done in the name of communism, but equally evil things have been done in the name of democracy.
Am in a good mood so i wont enter a big argument it didn’t work in China it didn’t work in Russia the only way it would work is removing humanity from the face of the planet. Millions dead more than the Nazis killed far far more.Communism failed its principles for the good its practical application by humans a total failure Worth looking into Simon Sebag Montefiore's S talin: The Court of the Red Tsar, and indeed Young Stalin, for an insight into how Communism was subverted by a desire for Absolute Power, and the institutionalised mass murder that resulted, not in the name of Communism, but holding onto power, in the same manner that the Younger Stalin, as a Gangster, ensured that anyone perceived as a threat (knowledge, ability, ambition) was disposed of. Corruption is at the heart of the failures of Communism, right through to Venezuela today. It has never worked for the very reasons that George Orwell raised in Animal Farm, and later 1984. Power corrupts and there is no true collective on any large scale thus far proven. Human nature and the quest for power ensures that it is not feasible.
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Post by tuigirl on Oct 5, 2018 19:32:57 GMT
To conflate Nazism with Communism as both evil is rather strange. Nazism has as an ideology has notion of superiority and inferiority baked right into it, it supports from the get go the idea that treating as inhuman anyone not of the correct "whatever" as OK, even good. Communism does not. Communism starts with the principle we are all equal or should be. That is not to say that evil things have not been done in the name of communism, but equally evil things have been done in the name of democracy.
Well, you can twist ANY ideology into evil if you try hard enough. I agree that Communism is not inherently evil. But there also were enough people who twisted (and still twist) the ideology of a famous man who taught "Love each other as I loved you" into something abhorrent.
One example- one of our neighbouring villages in Germany was the place were the last great German witch hunts happened, with around 1000 people burned at the stake. They have a museum there. Still, I do not see the church as evil and they have helped me in the past and I am still a member, even if I do not agree with everything they say and do. I will also argue with people who want to tell me that religion, per se, is the root of all evil.
As I keep banging on about- if we kept more of an open mind, many of our petty squabbles would be moot.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2018 19:32:57 GMT
Am in a good mood so i wont enter a big argument it didn’t work in China it didn’t work in Russia the only way it would work is removing humanity from the face of the planet. Millions dead more than the Nazis killed far far more.Communism failed its principles for the good its practical application by humans a total failure Worth looking into Simon Sebag Montefiore's S talin: The Court of the Red Tsar, and indeed Young Stalin, for an insight into how Communism was subverted by a desire for Absolute Power, and the institutionalised mass murder that resulted, not in the name of Communism, but holding onto power, in the same manner that the Younger Stalin, as a Gangster, ensured that anyone perceived as a threat (knowledge, ability, ambition) was disposed of. Corruption is at the heart of the failures of Communism, right through to Venezuela today. It has never worked for the very reasons that George Orwell raised in Animal Farm, and later 1984. Power corrupts and there is no true collective on any large scale thus far proven. Human nature and the quest for power ensures that it is not feasible. Yes the human race is the problem with most things we have a natural ability to turn everything into shit 🤭 But we also have the ability to turn shit into gold if we really work against our natural inclinations 🤪
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Post by jasonward on Oct 5, 2018 19:35:04 GMT
Hmmmm, like I said, evil has been done in the name of communism, and as far as I can tell, communism as practised in Soviet Russia and China is unsustainable and was only sustained over many years by the brutal suppression of people. But communism in of itself does not support these things, communism in isolation is egalitarian in its world view, but it seems human reality is not, and the humans who tried to force this on everyone acted in many undoubted evil ways. But as an ideology, it seems misguided to me, wrong even, to describe Communism as evil in the same way as Nazism is. Yes Jason as i said it could only work if Human race wasn’t involved in it am sure in 2O years or so it will be seen as an evil or i hope it will Its evil, not because of it's own nature, but because the people around it are evil.
That doesn't work for me.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2018 19:35:57 GMT
Anyways very deep conversation lets all go make a cuppa 😘
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Post by tuigirl on Oct 5, 2018 19:39:44 GMT
Am in a good mood so i wont enter a big argument it didn’t work in China it didn’t work in Russia the only way it would work is removing humanity from the face of the planet. Millions dead more than the Nazis killed far far more.Communism failed its principles for the good its practical application by humans a total failure Hmmmm, like I said, evil has been done in the name of communism, and as far as I can tell, communism as practised in Soviet Russia and China is unsustainable and was only sustained over many years by the brutal suppression of people. But communism in of itself does not support these things, communism in isolation is egalitarian in its world view, but it seems human reality is not, and the humans who tried to force this on everyone acted in many undoubted evil ways. But as an ideology, it seems misguided to me, wrong even, to describe Communism as evil in the same way as Nazism is. Well, to cite the famous words of Edward O. Wilson (one of my idols and the most famous ant researcher) "Karl Marx and Lenin were right. They just looked at the wrong species".
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2018 19:44:47 GMT
Cuppa made so its off to play The Mouthless Dead ideal bedtime and cold weather material.Good night to you all.GB
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2018 19:45:52 GMT
Yes Jason as i said it could only work if Human race wasn’t involved in it am sure in 2O years or so it will be seen as an evil or i hope it will Its evil, not because of it's own nature, but because the people around it are evil.
That doesn't work for me.
The Communism conundrum brings to mind Goodfellas. The fact that they all supposedly work together as a 'family' of thieves and murderers, looked after benevolently by the elders, but when they are threatened, anyone perceived as a threat, purely on the grounds that they may have knowledge useful to the Law or are indiscreet, ensures that meet a needlessly grisly execution. Protectionism of those who hold the actual power matters most, not the community as a whole. It is a classic, I feel, because it encapsulates, through real life testimony, these Shakespearean themes of Humanity as a self-serving animal who works as a group for ultimately personal gain and survival.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2018 20:32:43 GMT
This thread has gone a bit heavy duty, so here's a cute Kitten picture to make everyone smile...
Ooops, looks like the kitten got exterminated... now that is evil. Meowww!
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Post by Ela on Oct 5, 2018 20:35:07 GMT
Stereotyping much? Surely not? Fwiw I don't mind at all being from a nation of screen villains famed for their style, accents, suavity etc. Many's the time in America that someone has been kind enough to say 'I love your British accent'. Though sadly I don't have the undersea base etc. to go with it. My serious point was that, if 'Doctor Who' had originated in 50s/60s America it would likely have turned out more like 'Star Trek' for the same reasons that 'Star Trek' did - I believe the original pitch was something along the lines of 'Wagon train to the stars.'
And the 'hot dog stand' was a genuine attempt to think of something very American and small enough to be movable, but large enough for a few actors to run into and slam the door on whatever was chasing them!
It's a bit stereotyped.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2018 21:17:05 GMT
Surely not? Fwiw I don't mind at all being from a nation of screen villains famed for their style, accents, suavity etc. Many's the time in America that someone has been kind enough to say 'I love your British accent'. Though sadly I don't have the undersea base etc. to go with it. My serious point was that, if 'Doctor Who' had originated in 50s/60s America it would likely have turned out more like 'Star Trek' for the same reasons that 'Star Trek' did - I believe the original pitch was something along the lines of 'Wagon train to the stars.'
And the 'hot dog stand' was a genuine attempt to think of something very American and small enough to be movable, but large enough for a few actors to run into and slam the door on whatever was chasing them!
It's a bit stereotyped. Has anyone listened to this? An 'English' Doctor, who does not regenerate, but inherits the role through primogeniture. I enjoyed it. As an aside, I always imagined a 'US Who' as having an anachronistic, Jon Pertwee style father figure, telling witty anecdotes and tall tales and name dropping paternalistic-ally to his unnaturally appreciative earth team of young, multiracial, photogenic, wisecracking, encyclopedic-ally knowledgeable, useful companions who nevertheless solve problems through car chases and shoot-outs, with witty rejoiners and the voice of experience from 'The Doctor' as the head of the 'Unit'. Who always has the final words of wisdom and experience - a message for all of us, on some moral point scrabbled together by the writers at the end of a writing session. With a corny 80's Cagney and Lacey, wailing guitars and synth style theme tune. But no stereotyping.. Attachment Deleted
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Post by number13 on Oct 5, 2018 21:24:35 GMT
Surely not? Fwiw I don't mind at all being from a nation of screen villains famed for their style, accents, suavity etc. Many's the time in America that someone has been kind enough to say 'I love your British accent'. Though sadly I don't have the undersea base etc. to go with it. My serious point was that, if 'Doctor Who' had originated in 50s/60s America it would likely have turned out more like 'Star Trek' for the same reasons that 'Star Trek' did - I believe the original pitch was something along the lines of 'Wagon train to the stars.'
And the 'hot dog stand' was a genuine attempt to think of something very American and small enough to be movable, but large enough for a few actors to run into and slam the door on whatever was chasing them!
It's a bit stereotyped. The hot dog stand? Oh I see, the Star Trek comparison.
EDIT: Actually, a yellow school bus would be the perfect US TARDIS - that is an American icon surely? (We had a good friend in the west, now passed away, who drove one for many, many years and knew everyone. Happy memories.)
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Post by Jeedai on Oct 5, 2018 21:26:16 GMT
My serious point was that, if 'Doctor Who' had originated in 50s/60s America it would likely have turned out more like 'Star Trek' for the same reasons that 'Star Trek' did - I believe the original pitch was something along the lines of 'Wagon train to the stars.' I think it would have turned out more like Lost In Space. Leaning into the kid-friendly aspects of the concept to avoid competing with The Twilight Zone and The Outer Limits.
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Post by barnabaslives on Oct 5, 2018 21:58:05 GMT
And the 'hot dog stand' was a genuine attempt to think of something very American and small enough to be movable, but large enough for a few actors to run into and slam the door on whatever was chasing them! I think the hot dog stand is brilliant, and it's really funny. Either that or I think we'd try to make a TARDIS out of an old Chevrolet - maybe Doc Brown is American Doctor Who?
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Post by aemiliapaula on Oct 5, 2018 22:11:41 GMT
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyagers! I used to watch Voyagers! In the 80s. They travel through time and fix history. They travel via a gizmo called Omni. They tend to meet famous people, so the little boy's knowledge of history hepled. They also had a nemesis called Drake who was always trying to thwart them, a bit like the Master
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Post by number13 on Oct 5, 2018 23:08:50 GMT
And the 'hot dog stand' was a genuine attempt to think of something very American and small enough to be movable, but large enough for a few actors to run into and slam the door on whatever was chasing them! I think the hot dog stand is brilliant, and it's really funny. Either that or I think we'd try to make a TARDIS out of an old Chevrolet - maybe Doc Brown is American Doctor Who?
Doc Brown would be a brilliant Doctor, like the Second blended with the Twelfth.
I love all those movies, complete with cliff-hanger endings and a recurring 'villain' - though Biff's hardly the Master is he?!
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Post by Jeedai on Oct 5, 2018 23:54:49 GMT
If we're getting into casting the baddies, my choice for the Master would be John Calicos (Commander Kor on Trek, Baltar on Battlestar Galactica). For that sense of malicious entitlement oozing out of every pore.
And my top pick for The Meddler (I don't think Monk would fly as a villain name) would be Roger C Carmel. (Harry Mudd on Trek, Colonel Gumm on Batman). Watch as his pretense of superior schemery slowly crumbles each time he's thwarted to show the overgrown child beneath.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2018 1:29:11 GMT
If we're getting into casting the baddies, my choice for the Master would be John Calicos (Commander Kor on Trek, Baltar on Battlestar Galactica). For that sense of malicious entitlement oozing out of every pore. And my top pick for The Meddler (I don't think Monk would fly as a villain name) would be Roger C Carmel. (Harry Mudd on Trek, Colonel Gumm on Batman). Watch as his pretense of superior schemery slowly crumbles each time he's thwarted to show the overgrown child beneath. What about Eric Roberts as the Master? His pleasure in playing up the pantomime villainy of the role is a highlight of the TVM for me (and many more, I suspect). I would love to see him again on screen as much as Paul McGann. That US Pilot relaunch had a lot of potential in terms of what might have been developed. Despite of studio and BBC interference, the writers had a good grasp of their source material. Watching it live, with an expectation of a series to follow, after the 1989 cancellation was a mind-rush of ideas and anticipation, tempered by a sense that it was somehow too good to be true. No time back then to consider the weaknesses of the film, just hope.
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