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Post by omega on Dec 9, 2018 1:49:24 GMT
You really like Pretty Little Satin Bottoms, the Eighth Doctor getting amnesia (he really should invest in a diary considering how often he loses his memory), discount Buffy the demon hunter, poor man's satanists and godawful accents that make Dick Van Dyke's cockney sound normal over this? The original Minuet in Hell's rather good. The Doctor's locked up in Bedlam, the rituals have to do with the Hellfire Club and the creatures responsible for fostering it have a very special connection to Gallifrey. It comes off more like the ritualists in Robin of Sherwood then something from Buffy (I wonder if the Satanic Panic of the decade helped with the atmosphere?). I think I might prefer this to the rewrite of Minuet, though, it moves like an art film. Paul Magrs has this very particular style here where it feels like you're swimming through the set pieces, it's very lyrical and fantastical. Dreamlike, almost.
I think it's fine. The Wormery (an important cornerstone for post-Trial Sixie) and The Peterloo Massacre (a grounded story about selfishness and injustice), both by Magrs, will always get me jumping out of my seat going: "This is what it's all about!" It's less earthy than those entries, The Stones of Venice feels like an exploration of those TVM production values in audio form. Like a city about to nod off to sleep. Nice.
It's a shame that the Audio Visuals aren't available through any legal means, because they are unlicensed fan productions. Quite a few of the Big Finish audios use the concepts and storylines from that, with Frozen Time even being a sequel to Endurance. I'd be interested to read about how the stories were changed when reused for Big Finish, which would be very informative with the different approaches the companies took.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2018 2:33:41 GMT
The original Minuet in Hell's rather good. The Doctor's locked up in Bedlam, the rituals have to do with the Hellfire Club and the creatures responsible for fostering it have a very special connection to Gallifrey. It comes off more like the ritualists in Robin of Sherwood then something from Buffy (I wonder if the Satanic Panic of the decade helped with the atmosphere?). I think I might prefer this to the rewrite of Minuet, though, it moves like an art film. Paul Magrs has this very particular style here where it feels like you're swimming through the set pieces, it's very lyrical and fantastical. Dreamlike, almost.
I think it's fine. The Wormery (an important cornerstone for post-Trial Sixie) and The Peterloo Massacre (a grounded story about selfishness and injustice), both by Magrs, will always get me jumping out of my seat going: "This is what it's all about!" It's less earthy than those entries, The Stones of Venice feels like an exploration of those TVM production values in audio form. Like a city about to nod off to sleep. Nice.
It's a shame that the Audio Visuals aren't available through any legal means, because they are unlicensed fan productions. Quite a few of the Big Finish audios use the concepts and storylines from that, with Frozen Time even being a sequel to Endurance. I'd be interested to read about how the stories were changed when reused for Big Finish, which would be very informative with the different approaches the companies took. Funny you say that, I just dusted off my copy of Justyce Served and it looks as though they're still selling copies for charity here. I think you'll get a nice surprise at some of the names and faces that turned up (or would have turned up) on the production team. A lot of them went on in some capacity to work/write on professional Who. Concepts, likewise. If the First Doctor had the Daleks, the Second with the Cybermen and the Third with the Master, Conglomerate was the arch baddie of the AV!Doctor's run. Second only to Justyce in the final series. It would've made wonderful television. Worth the read.
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Post by masterdoctor on Dec 9, 2018 4:13:32 GMT
By far and away worse than Minuet in hell because Minuet tried to do something with its premise. Also Stones isn’t stylish, it’s just a bunch of stylistic ideas thrown together. One of worst 8 and Charley stories and their are a lot of them. You really like Pretty Little Satin Bottoms, the Eighth Doctor getting amnesia (he really should invest in a diary considering how often he loses his memory), discount Buffy the demon hunter, poor man's satanists and godawful accents that make Dick Van Dyke's cockney sound normal over this? Yes I do, for one, because in Minuet, Paul McGann doesn't sound monotonous throughout and has something too do. Other reasons is that I can remember all of those plot points as opposed to Stones where I can't remember the basic plot and characters out side of 8 and Charley even after listening to it at least 5 times over the years I've had it, Minuet knew what it wanted to be, the guest cast sounds like they are having a fun time with the material and therefore actually make there characters, while unoriginal, interesting. Stones of Venice is the equivalent of by the numbers Who becoming a pretentious, rich housewife who's husband is having a midlife crisis and ran off with a stripper for an unspecified amount of time and so she is throwing herself into buying loads of crappy modern art and doing lines of coke in the bathroom while her kids are asleep. Erratic, throwing everything against the wall to see what sticks and completely wasting time and money on worthless junk. Addendum: That seems to come off a bit harsher than intended, so no disrespect was intended if any was had.
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Post by eric009 on Dec 9, 2018 6:32:34 GMT
By far and away worse than Minuet in hell because Minuet tried to do something with its premise. Also Stones isn’t stylish, it’s just a bunch of stylistic ideas thrown together. One of worst 8 and Charley stories and their are a lot of them. I Played stones 2 times on play list the whole thing is for me one of worst of the main range minute in hell i like 7 time on my play list
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Post by drj on Dec 9, 2018 8:55:40 GMT
Well, you know what all this discussion means? I’m going to have to listen to Minuet in Hell again as see how it does! I haven’t heard it for a LONG time so should be interesting. Good to see different views on it and Stones. I’m going to try to take this on board on my relisten.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2018 9:19:44 GMT
I remember it was this and Night Thoughts i bought when i first got into Big Finish I haven’t played it in a while but it did not put me off enough not to continue with the Big Finish experience.
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Post by elkawho on Dec 12, 2018 1:38:22 GMT
As much as I dislike Stones, Minuet is sooo much worse for me. Maybe it's because of the HORRIBLE way it portrays my country and it's accents. Maybe because if it were possible to create another state, there is no way in hell (see what I did there) that it would be called Malebolgia. Maybe because of the ridiculous story and the waste of the Brig. Maybe because of the laziness of giving Eight amnesia AGAIN. Oh, I could go on and on.
Whew. Sorry. I kind of let things get away from me there.
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melkur
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Post by melkur on May 12, 2019 0:17:52 GMT
I've been re-listening to this today & whilst it's not a favourite release of mine, I do like the 'atmosphere' of the piece and like to listen to it every once in a while...
Today's listen has annoyed me slightly (ok, putting it strongly, but-), mainly due to the lack of female representation... Outside of Charley there's only one. And guess who is revealed to be 'the big love' in part four? Hmm... I know it was recorded in 2001, but it would have been nice to have an extra female presence in the story (maybe taking a leaf out of Pennant Roberts' book?)
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ljwilson
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It's tangerine....not orange
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Post by ljwilson on May 12, 2019 10:20:26 GMT
One of the BF stories where I've never made it to the end of part 1.
I will give it another go me thinks.
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Post by mark687 on May 12, 2019 10:25:25 GMT
One of the BF stories where I've never made it to the end of part 1. I will give it another go me thinks. McGann's 1st ever Recorded BF.
Regards
mark687
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Post by mark687 on May 12, 2019 10:30:57 GMT
I've been re-listening to this today & whilst it's not a favourite release of mine, I do like the 'atmosphere' of the piece and like to listen to it every once in a while... Today's listen has annoyed me slightly (ok, putting it strongly, but-), mainly due to the lack of female representation... Outside of Charley there's only one. And guess who is revealed to be 'the big love' in part four? Hmm... I know it was recorded in 2001, but it would have been nice to have an extra female presence in the story (maybe taking a leaf out of Pennant Roberts' book?) That's interesting the performance after the reveal is one of its high points for me so the representation seems fine.
Regards
mark687
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zebediahdoe
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"I will not be defeated by a fence!"
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Post by zebediahdoe on May 12, 2019 16:59:02 GMT
It's certainly got the great imagery, a fantastic score and some really fun ideas, but it's my least favourite of that first McGann season, mainly because I don't like the way the Doctor is written in it. I guess this is because the script was originally written for Tom Bakers Doctor, and a lot of it - even though this is McGanns second ever performance as The Doctor - just doesn't fit well, or play to his strengths.
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melkur
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Post by melkur on May 12, 2019 17:14:02 GMT
I've been re-listening to this today & whilst it's not a favourite release of mine, I do like the 'atmosphere' of the piece and like to listen to it every once in a while... Today's listen has annoyed me slightly (ok, putting it strongly, but-), mainly due to the lack of female representation... Outside of Charley there's only one. And guess who is revealed to be 'the big love' in part four? Hmm... I know it was recorded in 2001, but it would have been nice to have an extra female presence in the story (maybe taking a leaf out of Pennant Roberts' book?) That's interesting the performance after the reveal is one of its high points for me so the representation seems fine.
Regards
mark687
Mrs Lavish is a good role, yes, it's just... Ignoring Charley she's the only female character. The story itself is good, all the characters are written & performed well (though Mark Gattis seems a little hammy at times? But then there isn't much you can do with "religious fanatic"), I guess it would have been nice to have another female character in there somewhere? (Shrug) Maybe that's just me...
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melkur
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Post by melkur on May 12, 2019 17:19:51 GMT
It's certainly got the great imagery, a fantastic score and some really fun ideas, but it's my least favourite of that first McGann season, mainly because I don't like the way the Doctor is written in it. I guess this is because the script was originally written for Tom Bakers Doctor, and a lot of it - even though this is McGanns second ever performance as The Doctor - just doesn't fit well, or play to his strengths. 'Never knew that this story was written for Tom. Well, "you learn something knew everyday!" 'Definitely agree with you about the story. Great atmosphere, fun story idea, but yeah, I don't know if it's my favourite story of McGann's first series (I'd happily still give it a listen every once in a while though)...
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Post by mark687 on May 12, 2019 21:03:37 GMT
It's certainly got the great imagery, a fantastic score and some really fun ideas, but it's my least favourite of that first McGann season, mainly because I don't like the way the Doctor is written in it. I guess this is because the script was originally written for Tom Bakers Doctor, and a lot of it - even though this is McGanns second ever performance as The Doctor - just doesn't fit well, or play to his strengths. 'Never knew that this story was written for Tom. Well, "you learn something knew everyday!" 'Definitely agree with you about the story. Great atmosphere, fun story idea, but yeah, I don't know if it's my favourite story of McGann's first series (I'd happily still give it a listen every once in a while though)... Actually it was a ghost script for Peter Davison in case McGann pulled out.
Regards
mark687
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zebediahdoe
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Post by zebediahdoe on May 13, 2019 12:55:19 GMT
'Never knew that this story was written for Tom. Well, "you learn something knew everyday!" 'Definitely agree with you about the story. Great atmosphere, fun story idea, but yeah, I don't know if it's my favourite story of McGann's first series (I'd happily still give it a listen every once in a while though)... Actually it was a ghost script for Peter Davison in case McGann pulled out.
Regards
mark687
Yes, you are indeed right. Apologies. What I was referring to was the script outline, which Paul Magrs said was knocked up rather hastily as a "Season 14 type thing" when Gary Russell thought Tom Baker would be available, alongside Liz Sladen (ah, what could have been) - along with early versions of the scripts for Spectre of Lanyon Moor and The Holy Terror. The outline, I understand, then became a script for 5 and Nyssa, before being hurriedly re-formatted to an Eighth Doctor and Charley story, when Paul McGann miraculously agreed to join in. All that comes across to me, is that the Eighth Doctor just doesn't feel right in this story, despite Uncle Tewwance's assertion that all Doctors are basically inter-changeable, and when you think of his lines being spoken by Tom Baker, its' hard to shake that, especially when the whole set-up is such a love letter to the Hinchcliffe era.
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Post by tuigirl on May 13, 2019 18:22:26 GMT
Actually it was a ghost script for Peter Davison in case McGann pulled out.
Regards
mark687
Yes, you are indeed right. Apologies. What I was referring to was the script outline, which Paul Magrs said was knocked up rather hastily as a "Season 14 type thing" when Gary Russell thought Tom Baker would be available, alongside Liz Sladen (ah, what could have been) - along with early versions of the scripts for Spectre of Lanyon Moor and The Holy Terror. The outline, I understand, then became a script for 5 and Nyssa, before being hurriedly re-formatted to an Eighth Doctor and Charley story, when Paul McGann miraculously agreed to join in. All that comes across to me, is that the Eighth Doctor just doesn't feel right in this story, despite Uncle Tewwance's assertion that all Doctors are basically inter-changeable, and when you think of his lines being spoken by Tom Baker, its' hard to shake that, especially when the whole set-up is such a love letter to the Hinchcliffe era. I totally get what you mean, now that I think about this. I actually had exactly the same problem with the BF version of Shada- the 8th Doctor just does not feel right in it at all. Maybe this is the reason why Stones of Venice never really clicked with me.
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melkur
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Post by melkur on May 13, 2019 23:07:57 GMT
Actually it was a ghost script for Peter Davison in case McGann pulled out.
Regards
mark687
Yes, you are indeed right. Apologies. What I was referring to was the script outline, which Paul Magrs said was knocked up rather hastily as a "Season 14 type thing" when Gary Russell thought Tom Baker would be available, alongside Liz Sladen (ah, what could have been) - along with early versions of the scripts for Spectre of Lanyon Moor and The Holy Terror. The outline, I understand, then became a script for 5 and Nyssa, before being hurriedly re-formatted to an Eighth Doctor and Charley story, when Paul McGann miraculously agreed to join in. All that comes across to me, is that the Eighth Doctor just doesn't feel right in this story, despite Uncle Tewwance's assertion that all Doctors are basically inter-changeable, and when you think of his lines being spoken by Tom Baker, its' hard to shake that, especially when the whole set-up is such a love letter to the Hinchcliffe era. With some editing, I can see it as a 5/Nyssa story... It definitely would have been interesting to have seen (heard?) it and 'Lanyon Moor' as a 4/Sarah-Jane story (as well how the Conglomorate storyline would have differed had Sarah had been in the opening story instead of Leela) had Tom decided to sign on a few years earlier...
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ljwilson
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It's tangerine....not orange
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Post by ljwilson on Mar 30, 2021 15:25:04 GMT
One of the BF stories where I've never made it to the end of part 1. I will give it another go me thinks. And I have, quite a few times! It still isn't more than a 6 out of 10 for me, but I've warmed to the sleepy yet stylish atmosphere of it all and it's a good story to listen to just before sleep.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2021 17:57:25 GMT
This is an easy relisten the weathers been atrocious and i never have trouble Imagining Venice as i have been twice and both were magical experiences and i could totally imagine the sadness of it sinking...the characters are so weirdly over the top and exaggerated .Given this was the first McGann and Charley i think to be recorded it seems they always have been together.How a city of people going to their doom with the city i sometimes imagine that the rest of the earth is desolated and that Venice is the last settlement to fall...helps in a way as it explains the doom laden atmosphere going through the story.
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