mbt66
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 3,081
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Post by mbt66 on Dec 16, 2018 12:52:06 GMT
I finished the series yesterday, which for me speaks volumes...
...unfortunately this new incarnation hasn’t captured my heart.
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Post by jolyon on Dec 16, 2018 13:28:47 GMT
Well, I'm happy to give one mark for every episode of the series that I enjoyed. So, 10 out of 10!
What I will take away from this series is how big everything looked, considering how small the stories were.
Adventures had an impact on the few people present, but weren't on the brink of destroying the planet/universe/all of time.
But the location filming always looked vast.
I've bought books about the partition on the strength of this series, because it's as true today as in 1987, everything I know about history I know from Doctor Who!
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Post by eric009 on Dec 16, 2018 22:23:39 GMT
Apropos of the Soundtrack thread: after the Eleventh Doctor’s sonic screwdriver seemingly never leaving the screen, I had no issue with the number of times the Thirteenth Doctor used hers. Also, it was a vast improvement on sonic sunglasses, which I never really embraced. sonic screwdriver looks wrong but a vast improvement on sonic sunglasses, few weak episode but i give it 9/10 never liked the last dr (the only 1)and she is great too
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Post by shallacatop on Dec 17, 2018 14:45:10 GMT
Okay, so I've had a think about the running order of the series and I think that has been my real "issue" with Series 11, if anything. The series has been great, but it feels like a series of two halves.
We have The Woman Who Fell to Earth - Demons of the Punjab. Each story feels pretty much consecutive in regards to story, but each story also feels quite similar. They're low stakes, small cast and sets and use that to their advantage by making them very character driven, especially the TARDIS team themselves. The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos could fit into this too, especially given the lack of an arc this series, which would make it more appropriate broadcasting it halfway through the series, or earlier.
Then we have Kerblam!, The Witchfinders & it Takes You Away. They stand out amongst the other seven stories. Not in a bad way; they're three brilliant stories. Perhaps my favourite three of the series.
As a result, I have two different running orders for two different ways of handling the series:
Running Order #1
1. The Woman Who Fell to Earth 2. The Ghost Monument 3. The Tsuranga Conundrum * 4. The Witchfinders ** 5. Arachnids in the UK 6. Rosa *** 7. Kerblam! 8. Demons of the Punjab **** 9. It Takes You Away 10. The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos *****
* I think The Tsuranga Conundrum works better before the Doctor successfully manages to get everyone back to Sheffield. The Doctor expresses grave alarm at losing the TARDIS again, which works better coming immediately after The Ghost Monument. As does her looking for parts in which to repair the TARDIS / get a better grasp of flying her again. The episode would also reveal that Cicero was General in the war against the Stenza. ** The Witchfinders has a couple of lines of dialogue which make it better suited to come earlier in the series. One is the Doctor's comment about not interfering with the past, which works better if it's their first time. The other is Graham mentioning they're getting closer to Sheffield, which works with the Doctor's ongoing attempt at getting them home. The episode would reveal that the Morax planet was destroyed by the Stenza. *** An ever so slight edit where you'd cut down the opening bit in which the Doctor's attempting to get the team back to Sheffield. **** The Thijarian planet was destroyed by the Stenza. ***** More mentions of the Stenza have been seeded throughout the series, making it feel more connected and more like a finale.
Basically, Running Order #1 is something that could be done with only a couple of tweaks that provide the series with more of an arc and more of a consistency with regards to the broadcast order of stories.
Running Order #2
1. The Woman Who Fell to Earth 2. The Ghost Monument 3. The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos * 4. The Witchfinders ** 5. The Tsuranga Conundrum *** 6. Arachnids in the UK **** 7. Demons of the Punjab ***** 8. Rosa 9. Kerblam! 10. It Takes You Away
* Ranskoor Av Kolos would be revealed to be Desolation prior to what we see in The Ghost Monument. The TARDIS is still repairing, so can only travel backwards and forwards in time, but cannot change destination; which we see in The Ghost Monument. The fading TARDIS draws the Ux to the planet, viewing it as a sacred artifact of their religion. They see Tim Shaw arriving on the planet and believe he's their God and he has sent the TARDIS, which they drain power from in order to move Desolation out of orbit (as we see in The Ghost Monument) and create the super weapon Tim Shaw uses. ** The Doctor attempts to get them to Sheffield, but hasn't quite got to grips with the TARDIS, not to mention the ongoing repairs from the Doctor's regeneration and Tim Shaw's abuse of it. *** Similar to the original running order, where it makes more sense pre-Sheffield. **** I think this would have a small tweak where we see Yaz pick up her Grandma's watch. ***** I think get rid of the present day scenes between Yaz and her Grandma. Yaz mentions she was given the watch and it's a lucky charm for her, appropriate given her new lifestyle!
Running Order #2 is perhaps a little more heavy handed with regards to changing the structure of the series, with emphasis on miniseries of sorts. The first three give us the Tim Shaw / Stenza story. The following three follow the Doctor's attempts to get the team back to Sheffield. The six combined show us the team develop further, which is why I have delayed Arachnids by a couple of episodes. The final four are all great examples of the new Team TARDIS, I think. They're rich, varied and standalone stories. It Takes You Away is perhaps a little offbeat for a finale, but the point is that it isn't a "proper" finale episode. it just ties up the Graham and Ryan dynamic through the series and the former gets a little bit of closure after seeing Grace.
Two very different ideas; I'd be interested to hear what you think!
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Post by masterdoctor on Dec 17, 2018 23:13:54 GMT
Okay, so I've had a think about the running order of the series and I think that has been my real "issue" with Series 11, if anything. The series has been great, but it feels like a series of two halves. We have The Woman Who Fell to Earth - Demons of the Punjab. Each story feels pretty much consecutive in regards to story, but each story also feels quite similar. They're low stakes, small cast and sets and use that to their advantage by making them very character driven, especially the TARDIS team themselves. The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos could fit into this too, especially given the lack of an arc this series, which would make it more appropriate broadcasting it halfway through the series, or earlier. Then we have Kerblam!, The Witchfinders & it Takes You Away. They stand out amongst the other seven stories. Not in a bad way; they're three brilliant stories. Perhaps my favourite three of the series. As a result, I have two different running orders for two different ways of handling the series: Running Order #11. The Woman Who Fell to Earth 2. The Ghost Monument 3. The Tsuranga Conundrum * 4. The Witchfinders ** 5. Arachnids in the UK 6. Rosa *** 7. Kerblam! 8. Demons of the Punjab **** 9. It Takes You Away 10. The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos ***** * I think The Tsuranga Conundrum works better before the Doctor successfully manages to get everyone back to Sheffield. The Doctor expresses grave alarm at losing the TARDIS again, which works better coming immediately after The Ghost Monument. As does her looking for parts in which to repair the TARDIS / get a better grasp of flying her again. The episode would also reveal that Cicero was General in the war against the Stenza. ** The Witchfinders has a couple of lines of dialogue which make it better suited to come earlier in the series. One is the Doctor's comment about not interfering with the past, which works better if it's their first time. The other is Graham mentioning they're getting closer to Sheffield, which works with the Doctor's ongoing attempt at getting them home. The episode would reveal that the Morax planet was destroyed by the Stenza. *** An ever so slight edit where you'd cut down the opening bit in which the Doctor's attempting to get the team back to Sheffield. **** The Thijarian planet was destroyed by the Stenza. ***** More mentions of the Stenza have been seeded throughout the series, making it feel more connected and more like a finale. Basically, Running Order #1 is something that could be done with only a couple of tweaks that provide the series with more of an arc and more of a consistency with regards to the broadcast order of stories. Running Order #21. The Woman Who Fell to Earth 2. The Ghost Monument 3. The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos * 4. The Witchfinders ** 5. The Tsuranga Conundrum *** 6. Arachnids in the UK ****7. Demons of the Punjab ***** 8. Rosa 9. Kerblam! 10. It Takes You Away * Ranskoor Av Kolos would be revealed to be Desolation prior to what we see in The Ghost Monument. The TARDIS is still repairing, so can only travel backwards and forwards in time, but cannot change destination; which we see in The Ghost Monument. The fading TARDIS draws the Ux to the planet, viewing it as a sacred artifact of their religion. They see Tim Shaw arriving on the planet and believe he's their God and he has sent the TARDIS, which they drain power from in order to move Desolation out of orbit (as we see in The Ghost Monument) and create the super weapon Tim Shaw uses. ** The Doctor attempts to get them to Sheffield, but hasn't quite got to grips with the TARDIS, not to mention the ongoing repairs from the Doctor's regeneration and Tim Shaw's abuse of it. *** Similar to the original running order, where it makes more sense pre-Sheffield. **** I think this would have a small tweak where we see Yaz pick up her Grandma's watch. ***** I think get rid of the present day scenes between Yaz and her Grandma. Yaz mentions she was given the watch and it's a lucky charm for her, appropriate given her new lifestyle! Running Order #2 is perhaps a little more heavy handed with regards to changing the structure of the series, with emphasis on miniseries of sorts. The first three give us the Tim Shaw / Stenza story. The following three follow the Doctor's attempts to get the team back to Sheffield. The six combined show us the team develop further, which is why I have delayed Arachnids by a couple of episodes. The final four are all great examples of the new Team TARDIS, I think. They're rich, varied and standalone stories. It Takes You Away is perhaps a little offbeat for a finale, but the point is that it isn't a "proper" finale episode. it just ties up the Graham and Ryan dynamic through the series and the former gets a little bit of closure after seeing Grace. Two very different ideas; I'd be interested to hear what you think! I love Running Order #2, I think it actually would strengthen the entire series as well as each episode individually. In fact, I think I might just stick to that order.
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Post by barnabaslives on Dec 18, 2018 0:55:56 GMT
As a result, I have two different running orders for two different ways of handling the series: I like both of those, as well as some other possible ways of arranging the episodes. Aside from of course minor continuity issues I think it's probably true one could more or less arrange the stories to their own liking. Also, this sort of makes me wonder whether there were last minute decision about the order of the episodes and how much effect it might have had on them.
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Post by shallacatop on Dec 18, 2018 8:18:19 GMT
As a result, I have two different running orders for two different ways of handling the series: I like both of those, as well as some other possible ways of arranging the episodes. Aside from of course minor continuity issues I think it's probably true one could more or less arrange the stories to their own liking. Also, this sort of makes me wonder whether there were last minute decision about the order of the episodes and how much effect it might have had on them. Yeah, there’s little bits of continuity, but on the whole they’re little trims, etc. that could be made without much issue. The only episode I do know was changed is The Witchfinders. It should have been episode 4, which would’ve made it the “Halloween episode”, but editing issues caused it to be pushed back to episode 8. Graham’s line about being closer to Sheffield would make more sense as episode 4, and the Doctor’s insistence on not interfering would come straight after they did interfere, albeit for good reasons, in Rosa. I’m not sure if that meant the following episodes moved on one, or they took it as an opportunity to change the latter half of the series.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 18, 2018 12:06:15 GMT
Now, since sooner or later this'll crop up here, let's talk the ratings and why there was just a constant downward (though not uncommon in terms of British TV or NuWho period) trend: 1) Outside factors: Starting from Rosa, almost every week, something divided audience attention. F1 coverage, Bonfire Night, Remembrance Sunday etc. Not to mention, Dynasties arriving meant pushing Who back up to a whole half hour in the schedule, which may have a small but definite impact.
2) Tough subjects: no beating around the bush, stories like Rosa and Demons were always going to be tough sells. It's not unlikely, especially with Rosa, that many did not tune in out of concern over the handling, waiting until after to hear how they did. And for some, it may have still been too sensitive to watch after that. That, and arachnophobia being a common phobia may have not helped Arachnids' chances either (whether it would've done better with scorpions instead, since they are also aracs, I leave to you).
3) Marketing: BBC & Little Hawk had a lot of good ideas starting out and clearly it worked, given how strong 1-4 were. After that, however, the marketing started to thin, not helped by overly secretive next time trailers. Yes, not being spoiled was nice, but it also didn't leave much incentive to tune in if you were more casual or fence-sitty about the series.
4) No big arc/mystery: while I personally don't agree as arcs didn't stop past seasons having wildly fluctating ratings, I can see an argument in how the series wasn't building to something big, thus not giving it a sense of 'priority'. You can also chalk 'no classic monsters' in here for similar reasons I stated as not and maybe.
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Post by shallacatop on Dec 18, 2018 14:11:26 GMT
Okay, so I've had a think about the running order of the series and I think that has been my real "issue" with Series 11, if anything. The series has been great, but it feels like a series of two halves. We have The Woman Who Fell to Earth - Demons of the Punjab. Each story feels pretty much consecutive in regards to story, but each story also feels quite similar. They're low stakes, small cast and sets and use that to their advantage by making them very character driven, especially the TARDIS team themselves. The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos could fit into this too, especially given the lack of an arc this series, which would make it more appropriate broadcasting it halfway through the series, or earlier. Then we have Kerblam!, The Witchfinders & it Takes You Away. They stand out amongst the other seven stories. Not in a bad way; they're three brilliant stories. Perhaps my favourite three of the series. As a result, I have two different running orders for two different ways of handling the series: Running Order #11. The Woman Who Fell to Earth 2. The Ghost Monument 3. The Tsuranga Conundrum * 4. The Witchfinders ** 5. Arachnids in the UK 6. Rosa *** 7. Kerblam! 8. Demons of the Punjab **** 9. It Takes You Away 10. The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos ***** * I think The Tsuranga Conundrum works better before the Doctor successfully manages to get everyone back to Sheffield. The Doctor expresses grave alarm at losing the TARDIS again, which works better coming immediately after The Ghost Monument. As does her looking for parts in which to repair the TARDIS / get a better grasp of flying her again. The episode would also reveal that Cicero was General in the war against the Stenza. ** The Witchfinders has a couple of lines of dialogue which make it better suited to come earlier in the series. One is the Doctor's comment about not interfering with the past, which works better if it's their first time. The other is Graham mentioning they're getting closer to Sheffield, which works with the Doctor's ongoing attempt at getting them home. The episode would reveal that the Morax planet was destroyed by the Stenza. *** An ever so slight edit where you'd cut down the opening bit in which the Doctor's attempting to get the team back to Sheffield. **** The Thijarian planet was destroyed by the Stenza. ***** More mentions of the Stenza have been seeded throughout the series, making it feel more connected and more like a finale. Basically, Running Order #1 is something that could be done with only a couple of tweaks that provide the series with more of an arc and more of a consistency with regards to the broadcast order of stories. Running Order #21. The Woman Who Fell to Earth 2. The Ghost Monument 3. The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos * 4. The Witchfinders ** 5. The Tsuranga Conundrum *** 6. Arachnids in the UK ****7. Demons of the Punjab ***** 8. Rosa 9. Kerblam! 10. It Takes You Away * Ranskoor Av Kolos would be revealed to be Desolation prior to what we see in The Ghost Monument. The TARDIS is still repairing, so can only travel backwards and forwards in time, but cannot change destination; which we see in The Ghost Monument. The fading TARDIS draws the Ux to the planet, viewing it as a sacred artifact of their religion. They see Tim Shaw arriving on the planet and believe he's their God and he has sent the TARDIS, which they drain power from in order to move Desolation out of orbit (as we see in The Ghost Monument) and create the super weapon Tim Shaw uses. ** The Doctor attempts to get them to Sheffield, but hasn't quite got to grips with the TARDIS, not to mention the ongoing repairs from the Doctor's regeneration and Tim Shaw's abuse of it. *** Similar to the original running order, where it makes more sense pre-Sheffield. **** I think this would have a small tweak where we see Yaz pick up her Grandma's watch. ***** I think get rid of the present day scenes between Yaz and her Grandma. Yaz mentions she was given the watch and it's a lucky charm for her, appropriate given her new lifestyle! Running Order #2 is perhaps a little more heavy handed with regards to changing the structure of the series, with emphasis on miniseries of sorts. The first three give us the Tim Shaw / Stenza story. The following three follow the Doctor's attempts to get the team back to Sheffield. The six combined show us the team develop further, which is why I have delayed Arachnids by a couple of episodes. The final four are all great examples of the new Team TARDIS, I think. They're rich, varied and standalone stories. It Takes You Away is perhaps a little offbeat for a finale, but the point is that it isn't a "proper" finale episode. it just ties up the Graham and Ryan dynamic through the series and the former gets a little bit of closure after seeing Grace. Two very different ideas; I'd be interested to hear what you think! I love Running Order #2, I think it actually would strengthen the entire series as well as each episode individually. In fact, I think I might just stick to that order. Thanks for your kind words. I have the Series 11 steelbook pre-ordered and I think I’ll be watching it in Running Order #2 when it arrives to see how it flows. Even without the changes I propose to The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos, it will watch better following the first two episodes. There’s nothing wrong with Arachnids of the UK and Demons of the Punjab in their current state either. You can have a gap during those two adventures, once they’ve cemented themselves as Team TARDIS. In fact, that’s a perfect gap for the likes of DWM, Titan, etc. to slot in! All the other stories don’t have any proposed story alterations; they’ve just been changed in running order to make it flow better.
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Post by mrperson on Dec 18, 2018 19:28:00 GMT
Apparently I'd accidentally voted for 3/10? No idea how that one happened. Bumped up to 8/10, subject to reconsideration whenever I happen to get around to rewatching the whole thing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2018 11:35:46 GMT
I voted the season 7/10 in the poll. I thought S11 was way more enjoyable than Peter Capaldi's last season, and I actually liked Capaldi's Doctor! Some of the stories and plots of his episodes left a lot to be desired though. S11 generally had nothing to follow apart from a decent story each week that were mostly very enjoyable. I liked the return to some historical elements too. Jodie's Doctor hasn't set the world on fire for me yet, but as a whole unit this TARDIS team is jolly good fun. So not a bad season at all and plenty of room for improvement as the characters grow.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2018 13:02:54 GMT
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Post by number13 on Dec 21, 2018 10:44:23 GMT
Overall I'd give it 7/10, with several excellent episodes and only one turkey (P'ting, I'm looking at you! ) Maybe the moral of the season is - keep writing and production duties separate?
I liked Jodie's Doctor but I would like a bit more 'edge' more often - to see the Doctor putting her foot down firmly (without needing to go all 'Oncoming Storm' about it) and a bit more moral outrage from time to time. I'd like more menacing villains the next time around and it really needs more for Yaz to do. Ryan and Graham, just keep doing what you're doing, two great Companions Friends for this or any Doctor.
I'm still not keen on the costume and I've decided I don't like the TARDIS interior at all, it looks like a very small geological museum in there now, very strange, but overall the design and look of the series has been outstanding imo.
Episode ranking was easier than I thought it would be, I've enjoyed reading other people's lists and seeing how we all saw the series differently (and being polite about it too, good old DU!) so here's mine:
Demons of the Punjab The Witchfinders It Takes You Away Rosa (the historical elements)
The Woman Who Fell to Earth Kerblam! Arachnids in the UK Rosa (the sci-fi elements i.e. Krasko)
The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos The Ghost Monument
The Tsuranga Conundrum
Yes, I have cheated by including 'Rosa' twice but it's my list and I thought Krasko could have been improved by actually being stage scenery...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2018 6:24:05 GMT
I think my fave bit of dialogue of the year is.
Doctor: "It's already tried to lure Graham"
Graham "I wasn't lured, it's not like I gave it my credit card details".
But then Rosa's "No." is so impossibly powerful it's hard to say a jokey line is better.
Love it. Add on the frog, Jodie's lovely blowing a kiss walking backwards into the light (my fave visual of the year), the setting, the Guillermo Del Toro like other-world and it really is an ep that's just stuck with me really hard. Rosa, Punjab, this and Witchfinders. Four eps out of ten that I really consider instant classics. A 40% ratio will do for me! And only the Tsrunga ep really dropped the ball, that's the only one I can't ever imagine wanting to spend an hour on again.
I would say I dislike the TARDIS design - and I do, it's cluttered, dark and dull, far too in debt to the RTD era one (like many Chib choices) - but since they've used the TARDIS much more like the classic series where it's purely to get them to the adventures then away again it's not like it's been intergal. Moffat's really the only head writer who seemed to really want to use the TARDIS consistently in the stories, and utilise the time and space aspects in the middle of the adventures but Chibnall seems, like most of the head honchos before him, to just like it to be the reason they are where they are. Fair enough. Still ugly design though. Wonder how many times they've bashed their heads on those yellow beams?
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Post by mark687 on Jan 1, 2019 20:34:10 GMT
Now Series 11 is properly over I can make this conclusion
Chris Chibnail of 1987 your older self has written for a series in a style that Pip and Jane Baker could've wrote if Uncle Terrance was Script Editor do you owe them an apology?
To be clear I find Pip and Jane Bakers stuff average not great overall but Terrance Dicks can smooth over cracks to make stories watchable
Regards
mark687
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jan 1, 2019 21:58:54 GMT
Now Series 11 is properly over I can make this conclusion Chris Chibnail of 1987 your older self has written for a series in a style that Pip and Jane Baker could've wrote if Uncle Terrance was Script Editor do you owe them an apology? To be clear I find Pip and Jane Bakers stuff average not great overall but Terrance Dicks can smooth over cracks to make stories watchable Regards mark687 The thought of Pip and Jane writing Rosa or Punjab fills me with unimaginable terror and I will be suffering crippling nightmares as a result for the next two weeks.
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Post by mark687 on Jan 1, 2019 22:10:08 GMT
Now Series 11 is properly over I can make this conclusion Chris Chibnail of 1987 your older self has written for a series in a style that Pip and Jane Baker could've wrote if Uncle Terrance was Script Editor do you owe them an apology? To be clear I find Pip and Jane Bakers stuff average not great overall but Terrance Dicks can smooth over cracks to make stories watchable Regards mark687 The thought of Pip and Jane writing Rosa or Punjab fills me with unimaginable terror and I will be suffering crippling nightmares as a result for the next two weeks. I did say it applied to the Chibnall written EPS (as co-writer on Rosa I'd be very surprised if he wasn't responsible for Krasko a prime example of 80s era Who type of subtly)
Regards
mark687
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Post by eric009 on Jan 1, 2019 22:17:43 GMT
well it's only next year
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2019 23:42:46 GMT
I have to say S11 hasn't been a bad season at all, I think the best episode was saved til last but I really enjoyed the majority of the stories this year.
The New Year Special Resolution is my favourite episode - if we are classing that as part of S11 for this discussion - but Demons of the Punjab, The Witchfinders The Woman Who Fell to Earth, Arachnids in the UK and Rosa are not too far behind. They were all very enjoyable and made Doctor Who interesting again. It Takes You Away was probably the weakest episode of S11 for me but even so there were no real stinkers this season.
Jodie has done well as The Doctor and it's quite clear that this is the Doctor we all know and love. She still seems a bit Tennanty to me at times, but her Doctor having similarities with another incarnation of the same character is not that odd; they are the same person after all. The main star of this season for me though is Bradley Walsh. Graham is so untypical as a Doctor Who companion, yet he works wonderfully in the role and Bradley nails the part. What a great actor. Alan Cumming's guest appearance was top notch too. (I would love to see his character return again.) The new theme grew on me, although I still don't like the TARDIS interior, or the box at the front thing we get when we see inside but that sort of thing is only a minor niggle. The Doctor was good, her team were good and the only way is up for all of them. Overall I thought S11 was a very entertaining season.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jan 2, 2019 6:15:41 GMT
I'm thinking that we've seen the biggest change in writing styles since Season 18 and the start of the JNT/Bidmead stories. It's recognisably Who but different to what we've gotten before. For those who've got the time and the DVDs, compare The Horns Of Nimon (Shada has too much baggage to be considered properly part of the era and for many of us Nimon ended Season 17) with The Leisure Hive and do a similar thing with Twice Upon A Time/ The Woman Who Fell To Earth. The stories are catering to a slightly different televisual literacy and viewer shorthand than previously while still trying to be the same thing as it was. I've said previously that this series we've had some fantastic television but not necessarily fantastic Doctor Who but I'm prepared to revise that to I still think that Who as a format is still struggling with modern television styles and storytelling techniques: endings in particular, but story arcs seem to be a bit hit and miss as do multipart stories.
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