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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 19:08:26 GMT
Its a good story and i recalled quite a lot of it when listening to first epsiode.
The Bf Companion does say the production was a tough one and relistening after reading these nuggets of information is very enlightening and adds to the story.
If there is another thread i did search back apologies
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 19:12:16 GMT
I do miss the inner sleeve notes that accompanied the original cds and the cast photos.But i suppose its costly and nowadays we rely on Vortex for the info but it does make for a more complete `CD experience
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Post by Tim Bradley on Dec 11, 2018 19:35:30 GMT
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Post by elkawho on Dec 12, 2018 1:32:34 GMT
For the longest time this was in my top 10 BF audios, but it's taken a slight fall due to the sheer amount of wonderful material that has been produced over the years. There is so much I love about this story. Five and Nyssa rarely feel as if they are in this much actual peril, and the effect is striking. Nyssa actually being brutalized at the hands of the police is horrifying. I think of this one as Nyssa's "Caves of Androzani" story. One in which the main characters have no affect on the action or the outcome, and are lucky to get away with their lives.
The structure makes the listener have to pay attention, have to listen to every second of the piece in order to understand the picture that it eventually paints. And that picture is a bleak one. Add to it that it's one of the Doctor's own making, even accidentally, and the power of it is unquestionable. The possible consequences of The Doctor's travels is so alarming, that it makes one wonder what else has accidentally occurred due to his stumbling in to a situation.
As I write this I realize that, although there isn't a Dalek in sight, this story has a very Terry Nation feel to it. Bleak, dark, even hopeless. For me, this is one of Nick Briggs best scripts that he ever wrote for Big Finish.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 6:13:28 GMT
There's something about that initial "season" of Five/Nyssa stories (from Land of the Dead to Circular Time) that really leant into the macabre in an emotionally thoughtful way and nowhere is it more visible than here. It's a rotting carcass of a world, bloated and sickly on the ecological catastrophe that befell it. The Veln people feed off one another with their fatalism and brutality, stringing up anyone who isn't suffering as they are out of jealousy and bitter despair. This might actually be a rather good counterpoint to the optimistic determinism of The Pirates. There, it was all about how one life can make a difference and the good that can come from that. Here, it's what happens in the worst possible scenario, where the mere appearance of the TARDIS causes catastrophe on a global scale.
There's a really nice line from the Doctor in the middle of the play: "Sometimes if you stare at a painting for too long and for too close, all you can see are the brush strokes. The more formless and more meaningless it seems to become." Part of analysing visual art is also to take into account things like where the artwork is placed. The gallery space is arguably just as important as the work itself. It's one of Briggs's nihilistic, but also one of his best. A really stunning bit of Who that makes you think about not just the brush strokes, but the room itself. How just the tiniest addition of information can radically alter the nature of a story.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 6:33:11 GMT
For the longest time this was in my top 10 BF audios, but it's taken a slight fall due to the sheer amount of wonderful material that has been produced over the years. There is so much I love about this story. Five and Nyssa rarely feel as if they are in this much actual peril, and the effect is striking. Nyssa actually being brutalized at the hands of the police is horrifying. I think of this one as Nyssa's "Caves of Androzani" story. One in which the main characters have no affect on the action or the outcome, and are lucky to get away with their lives. The structure makes the listener have to pay attention, have to listen to every second of the piece in order to understand the picture that it eventually paints. And that picture is a bleak one. Add to it that it's one of the Doctor's own making, even accidentally, and the power of it is unquestionable. The possible consequences of The Doctor's travels is so alarming, that it makes one wonder what else has accidentally occurred due to his stumbling in to a situation. As I write this I realize that, although there isn't a Dalek in sight, this story has a very Terry Nation feel to it. Bleak, dark, even hopeless. For me, this is one of Nick Briggs best scripts that he ever wrote for Big Finish. Have to agree Nick Briggs has created a great script and a twist . I find the older stories very engaging and I enjoy four part stories more I like the breathing room for characters and scripts if written well. It also has a slightly darker edge also seen in the 7th Doctor RED.I think 5 works well with Nyssa I do not think she is the perfect companion for him as Iterations Of I and also Loups Garoux and Singularity prove that a decent script and writer and he works with all of them in a group or individually |
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Dec 12, 2018 12:00:36 GMT
This is one of the two 5/Nyssa stories i'd heard about so much and couldnt wait to listen to (The other being The Game) and it was absolutely amazing. The way the story was told. It worked so well being told non-chronologically. It wouldnt have the same impact otherwise
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 12:56:09 GMT
This is one of the two 5/Nyssa stories i'd heard about so much and couldnt wait to listen to (The other being The Game) and it was absolutely amazing. The way the story was told. It worked so well being told non-chronologically. It wouldnt have the same impact otherwise Am going to do Primeval again and did Land of The Dead and thoroughly enjoyed it |
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ljwilson
Chancellery Guard
It's tangerine....not orange
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Post by ljwilson on Dec 12, 2018 18:56:07 GMT
Up there with the best 5th Doctor BF stories, I loved it.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Dec 13, 2018 9:14:19 GMT
TBH I always thought this was overrated. With a non-chronological story I always ask would it have been as good if told in a straightforward chronological way and if the answer is yes then what is the point in making it non-chronological? If the answer is no, then the cynic in me says the non-chronological structure is just a cheap gimmick to make an otherwise dull story a bit more interesting and distract the audience from its dullness.
(I feel the same way about films like pulp fiction)
That aside it's a good enough story, well above average, but the non-chronological nature just annoys me.
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Post by number13 on Oct 16, 2019 9:57:48 GMT
I walked straight into this one, because I'm working through the as-yet-unheard-by-me early MR in sequence from DLs and almost entirely spoiler-free. I knew nothing about it except it was a Five/Nyssa story and apparently very well thought of....
Amazing story. It's a bleak, brutal and pretty hopeless tale - two worlds almost without hope of a future - and very believable. The performances and sound design were excellent and the unusual out-of-sequence storytelling made for a very involving experience. I'd scheduled this for a couple of late-evening sessions so I could give what I'd heard was rather a classic the attention it deserved - well, I got a late night because there was no way I was waiting to hear the second half!
I did guess the twist ending (most unusually for me) because there was one clue too many around the end of ep3/start of ep4, but this spoiled nothing. It was a real oh NO! moment, followed by a gripping episode of then watching 'history' unfold to the bitter beginning I'd expected, one unchangeable line after another. And no-one in the story ever knows the truth, not even the Doctor. Which for him is probably just as well; he's got enough on his conscience already.
I hope this next bit comes out the right way. I was trying to guess, on and off, who had written this amazing story and only afterwards did I look and find - Nick Briggs. I've never understood the criticism his stories sometimes get ('The Conquest of Far' is pure Third Doctor/Dalek brilliance imo, for example) but the next time I hear any such criticism, I'll have my answer ready: 'Creatures of Beauty'. Outstanding.
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Post by tuigirl on Oct 16, 2019 10:14:47 GMT
I walked straight into this one, because I'm working through the as-yet-unheard-by-me early MR in sequence from DLs and almost entirely spoiler-free. I knew nothing about it except it was a Five/Nyssa story and apparently very well thought of....
Amazing story. It's a bleak, brutal and pretty hopeless tale and very believable. The performances and sound design were excellent and the unusual out-of-sequence storytelling made for a very involving experience. I'd scheduled this for a couple of late-evening sessions so I could give what I'd heard was rather a classic the attention it deserved - well, I got a late night because there was no way I was waiting to hear the second half!
I did guess the twist ending (most unusually for me) because there was one clue too many around the end of ep3/start of ep4, but this spoiled nothing. It was a real oh NO! moment, followed by a gripping episode of then watching 'history' unfold to the bitter beginning I'd expected, one unchangeable line after another. And no-one in the story ever knows the truth, not even the Doctor. Which for him is probably just as well; he's got enough on his conscience already.
I hope this next bit comes out the right way. I was trying to guess, on and off, who had written this amazing story and only afterwards did I look and find - Nick Briggs. I've never understood the criticism his stories sometimes get ('The Conquest of Far' is pure Third Doctor/Dalek brilliance imo, for example) but the next time I hear any such criticism, I'll have my answer ready: 'Creatures of Beauty'. Outstanding.
He did write some awesome stories. He did write Dark Eyes for gods sake! I also do not understand why many people do not rate him higher and always drag out his worst work to make a point. Yes, he wrote the worst bit of Doctor Who fiction in history ("Exile"), but we all have bad days and sometimes make catastrophic mistakes.
As I said, "Dark Eyes". I rest my case.
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Post by polly on Oct 16, 2019 19:46:35 GMT
I love Creatures of Beauty. It's a wonderfully designed puzzle and once the final piece slots into place the full picture takes your breath away. I look forward to reaching it in my grand listen/relisten.
As far as Nick's writing ability goes, I don't think it's that he's a bad writer, as we can plainly see here and in things like Dark Eyes as tuigirl mentioned. But I do think he often doesn't challenge himself and writes nostalgic comfort food, which doesn't do a lot for me personally. But when he does go above and beyond the results can be impressive.
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Post by barnabaslives on Oct 16, 2019 20:49:00 GMT
I hope this next bit comes out the right way. I was trying to guess, on and off, who had written this amazing story and only afterwards did I look and find - Nick Briggs. I've never understood the criticism his stories sometimes get ('The Conquest of Far' is pure Third Doctor/Dalek brilliance imo, for example) but the next time I hear any such criticism, I'll have my answer ready: 'Creatures of Beauty'. Outstanding.
Agreed about The Conquest of Far. I've never understood the criticism that his Laan stories from the 4DAs seem to get (so far it sounds like I'm their biggest fan), I thought they'd have made for a rather stunning television story. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2019 16:59:36 GMT
I walked straight into this one, because I'm working through the as-yet-unheard-by-me early MR in sequence from DLs and almost entirely spoiler-free. I knew nothing about it except it was a Five/Nyssa story and apparently very well thought of....
Amazing story. It's a bleak, brutal and pretty hopeless tale and very believable. The performances and sound design were excellent and the unusual out-of-sequence storytelling made for a very involving experience. I'd scheduled this for a couple of late-evening sessions so I could give what I'd heard was rather a classic the attention it deserved - well, I got a late night because there was no way I was waiting to hear the second half!
I did guess the twist ending (most unusually for me) because there was one clue too many around the end of ep3/start of ep4, but this spoiled nothing. It was a real oh NO! moment, followed by a gripping episode of then watching 'history' unfold to the bitter beginning I'd expected, one unchangeable line after another. And no-one in the story ever knows the truth, not even the Doctor. Which for him is probably just as well; he's got enough on his conscience already.
I hope this next bit comes out the right way. I was trying to guess, on and off, who had written this amazing story and only afterwards did I look and find - Nick Briggs. I've never understood the criticism his stories sometimes get ('The Conquest of Far' is pure Third Doctor/Dalek brilliance imo, for example) but the next time I hear any such criticism, I'll have my answer ready: 'Creatures of Beauty'. Outstanding.
He did write some awesome stories. He did write Dark Eyes for gods sake! I also do not understand why many people do not rate him higher and always drag out his worst work to make a point. Yes, he wrote the worst bit of Doctor Who fiction in history ("Exile"), but we all have bad days and sometimes make catastrophic mistakes.
As I said, "Dark Eyes". I rest my case.
Well I do Like his writing and think he writes a mean old story .Sure he has crap ones and I have not as yet heard EXILE but even their best BF writers have had poor days .It cannot be easy to come up with ideas for a show that has run for nearly fifty years. Nick may not be high on my acting score card but he gave Tom Baker my favourite lines in THE FINAL PHASE the first time I heard it I thought that’s Tom that’s the Doctor I knew.So Nick scores highly for that. I ain’t going to rip the guy apart as I cannot write and I cannot act.(even badly) |
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Post by mark687 on Jan 26, 2021 21:56:58 GMT
Narrative its one of the better experiments, Some very good Performances (particularly David Decker)
4/5
Regards
mark687
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Post by grinch on Jan 26, 2021 21:59:38 GMT
This one is such a masterpiece. And you’ll definitely get the most out of it if you go in without knowing anything about it. Definitely ranks up there with not only some of the best Fifth Doctor stories but also one of the best productions to come out of Big Finish.
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Post by Kestrel on Mar 27, 2021 19:53:18 GMT
- Easily one of the very best stories I've listened to in the Monthly Range so far. Really, really, really good! Though, granted, this was also the first story I listened to after Nekromanteia, so I might be overstating the MR 044's quality here.
- Love how the story hits the ground running. While this is ultimately a consequence of the nonlinear narrative structure, it still gives the immediate impression that the writer(s) are very confident in their story and cannot afford to waste any time.
- The first episode also does some semi-epistolary storytelling, with the interrogation tapes, which is something I almost-always enjoy.
- Also love how everyone involved on the planet are depicted as morally gray—there are no good guys here, no bad guys, just a bad situation with no good solutions.
- And I definitely need to give a shout-out to the excellent vocal performances here. It's a very small but vitally important thing that every single character speaks with a very distinctive and unique cadence and accent—it makes everyone immediately identifiable, which is not something that is always easy in audio.
- I don't think the whole beauty/ugly aspect of this story really works for me. How, exactly, is this dynamic relevant to the plot? It just feels like something that ought to have some thematic weight or relevance to it... but it doesn't. Or, at least, if it does—I'm not seeing it. It's also a really weird concept to bring to a medium like this: beauty and ugliness are essentially meaningless distinctions when constrained entirely to an audio medium.
- That said, I can definitely think of some interesting ways they could have worked with the beauty/ugly dynamic in a different story. Just imagine an SF premise based on cosmetic surgery—and rather than resentment between classes being an issue, imagine instead the cosmetic surgery afforded to the wealthy eventually evolved into very different sets of beauty standards between social classes, to the extent where neither agree on which attributes are desirable and which are not. Beauty standards have always bent under the weight of culture and class—why not take that to an extreme? There's definitely some potential for social commentary here, so it's a shame to see this premise reduced to something like, "aliens made us ugly, so we mad."
- Nitpick time: where do these SF writers come from who think waste management would ever be an issue for a spacefaring civilization? Nah. Not possible. Even ignoring the potential for recycling matter, hazardous waste could easily be dumped into a star, or tossed into a black hole, or even just set aside at some random point in the void between stars: taking waste matter and dumping it on a planet is just... incredibly stupid.
- Favorite moment? The Doctor recognizing the Kteem after struggling to remember where he'd heard of them for a bit: "The Kteem? Aren't they extinct or something?" It's a wonderfully funny line in the moment, and it becomes pretty powerful once the ending reveals that the Doctor was responsible for the accident that precipitated this extinction.
- And he never even realized!
- "There's nothing inherently dangerous about his physiology." Is now my favorite quote describing the Doctor.
- I really do enjoy the nonlinear structure of the story—it comes together perfectly at the end, but there are parts throughout where it's perhaps a little too confusing. Ending the third episode with the Doctor dematerializing the TARDIS and leaving the planet, in particular, seems like an odd choice.
- Absolutely one of the best Monthly Range stories I've listened to so far. And also one of the very best 5th Doctor stories, I think—it just perfectly encapsulates his character: he's curious, he wants to help, but he's also kinda weary and depressed and maybe not as careful or attentive as he ought to be, and no matter what he thinks or intends he winds up leaving nothing but tragedy in his wake.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2021 7:31:27 GMT
TBH I always thought this was overrated. With a non-chronological story I always ask would it have been as good if told in a straightforward chronological way and if the answer is yes then what is the point in making it non-chronological? If the answer is no, then the cynic in me says the non-chronological structure is just a cheap gimmick to make an otherwise dull story a bit more interesting and distract the audience from its dullness. (I feel the same way about films like pulp fiction) That aside it's a good enough story, well above average, but the non-chronological nature just annoys me. Yes, what you said. |
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Post by Kestrel on Mar 29, 2021 1:12:01 GMT
I wonder if it maybe works better on CD, where each episode has its own disc? If I'd been a bit less attentive I could easily have deleted the file and written it off as a confusing mess after episode 3.
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