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Post by fingersmash on Apr 12, 2019 15:39:54 GMT
People of the Divergent Universe
I'm doing a paper on toxic fandom for university and I'm looking for anecdotes. Here's the question for everyone: What experiences have you had that made you leave a fandom?
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Post by Digi on Apr 12, 2019 22:59:48 GMT
Well....I have three, but might be that none of them is quite what you're looking for.
One was my exodus due to the creatives, from the Mass Effect franchise. After the first game out, I became a massive superfan. I beat the game over and over to mop up every last achievement. I read every possible comic, every possible novel. I preordered Mass Effect 2 when that became possible, and then proceeded to track down and buy every last piece of retailer-exclusive release content...and beat the game over and over again to nail down every last achievement. I bought all the DLC, and played it over and over. I continued reading the books and comics religiously, the day they came out.
Enter Mass Effect 3: I was as hyped as any human could be, I made sure I was able to play it AS SOON as it was available (I can't recall offhand whether this was lining up to buy or staying up till midnight to buy digitally). I even took time off work so I could sink all of my time into it. And I was having a blast, the game was just everything I wanted. Intense, emotional, sublime. And then the ending happened, and it was just such a complete and utter betrayal of everything that had led up to that point, that I walked away. I finished the game the once, the first time, and was so utterly shocked at the halfassed ending, the ending where every choice you'd made (that were supposed to matter!) was suddenly reduced to 'pick one of three colours.' And I walked away. I never played the game again, I never picked up another book or comic, I never picked up any of the previous games again, I never even considered playing Andromeda. Casey Hudson poisoned Mass Effect for me forever, and I have no interest in ever returning to it.
The second is Call of Duty. I wouldn't go so far as to call myself a giant fan, but I had enjoyed the games at the start. This was early in the WW2 video games phenomenon era, so the series was a lot of fun. And when Modern Warfare 1 came out, it was A Big Thing. The game was terrific, polished, something new. It had set pieces that were just incredible for a video game at the time. On this one I also played through it several times to try to mop up all achievements (I did!). So I was pretty excited for Modern Warfare 2 (though definitely not as hyped as I had been for ME3). I bought it, booted it up on its hardest difficulty, and started to play. It was hard....suspiciously too hard. I got through three or four maps, and by then it became abundantly clear that the programmers of MW2 had simply gotten lazy: rather than program in smart AI, they'd simply given all the AI baddies headshot auto-aim, making the game nigh-on-impossible. And as I'd never cared for multiplayer Call of Duty....I literally returned the game the same day I bought it, and have never touched a Call of Duty game since.
Incident #3 is probably a little bit more what you're looking for, though it didn't spur me to leave fandom entirely: Star Trek! Specifically, back in the mid- to late-90s, there were forums at StarTrek.com. I was young (tween-to-teen) and liked forums at the time, and grew up a Trekkie, so I was enthusiastic in joining them. It quickly became apparent that it was infested with violently homophobic posters. I'm not gay myself, but I was so grossed out and sickened that there were actually people claiming to be Trekkies on there who insisted there were no gays in Trek because "f--gotry is cured by then" (real phrase), that jokes about gays having all been killed in the Eugenics Wars, etc etc etc were rampant and unaddressed by the site staff that I walked away. I didn't stop liking Trek, and I've since re-engaged with fandom, but I was so appalled at it, even as a young teen, that it was quite some time before I was willing to entertain the idea of interacting with other Trek fans online again.
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Post by fingersmash on Apr 12, 2019 23:30:37 GMT
Well....I have three, but might be that none of them is quite what you're looking for. One was my exodus due to the creatives, from the Mass Effect franchise. After the first game out, I became a massive superfan. I beat the game over and over to mop up every last achievement. I read every possible comic, every possible novel. I preordered Mass Effect 2 when that became possible, and then proceeded to track down and buy every last piece of retailer-exclusive release content...and beat the game over and over again to nail down every last achievement. I bought all the DLC, and played it over and over. I continued reading the books and comics religiously, the day they came out. Enter Mass Effect 3: I was as hyped as any human could be, I made sure I was able to play it AS SOON as it was available (I can't recall offhand whether this was lining up to buy or staying up till midnight to buy digitally). I even took time off work so I could sink all of my time into it. And I was having a blast, the game was just everything I wanted. Intense, emotional, sublime. And then the ending happened, and it was just such a complete and utter betrayal of everything that had led up to that point, that I walked away. I finished the game the once, the first time, and was so utterly shocked at the halfassed ending, the ending where every choice you'd made (that were supposed to matter!) was suddenly reduced to 'pick one of three colours.' And I walked away. I never played the game again, I never picked up another book or comic, I never picked up any of the previous games again, I never even considered playing Andromeda. Casey Hudson poisoned Mass Effect for me forever, and I have no interest in ever returning to it. The second is Call of Duty. I wouldn't go so far as to call myself a giant fan, but I had enjoyed the games at the start. This was early in the WW2 video games phenomenon era, so the series was a lot of fun. And when Modern Warfare 1 came out, it was A Big Thing. The game was terrific, polished, something new. It had set pieces that were just incredible for a video game at the time. On this one I also played through it several times to try to mop up all achievements (I did!). So I was pretty excited for Modern Warfare 2 (though definitely not as hyped as I had been for ME3). I bought it, booted it up on its hardest difficulty, and started to play. It was hard....suspiciously too hard. I got through three or four maps, and by then it became abundantly clear that the programmers of MW2 had simply gotten lazy: rather than program in smart AI, they'd simply given all the AI baddies headshot auto-aim, making the game nigh-on-impossible. And as I'd never cared for multiplayer Call of Duty....I literally returned the game the same day I bought it, and have never touched a Call of Duty game since. Incident #3 is probably a little bit more what you're looking for, though it didn't spur me to leave fandom entirely: Star Trek! Specifically, back in the mid- to late-90s, there were forums at StarTrek.com. I was young (tween-to-teen) and liked forums at the time, and grew up a Trekkie, so I was enthusiastic in joining them. It quickly became apparent that it was infested with violently homophobic posters. I'm not gay myself, but I was so grossed out and sickened that there were actually people claiming to be Trekkies on there who insisted there were no gays in Trek because "f--gotry is cured by then" (real phrase), that jokes about gays having all been killed in the Eugenics Wars, etc etc etc were rampant and unaddressed by the site staff that I walked away. I didn't stop liking Trek, and I've since re-engaged with fandom, but I was so appalled at it, even as a young teen, that it was quite some time before I was willing to entertain the idea of interacting with other Trek fans online again. That last one is exactly the kind of story I'm looking for
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2019 0:11:53 GMT
I might be lucky. I've don't think I've had experiences that've made me actively leave a fandom because of the fans themselves. Gatekeeping against any initial interest, though, that's a common enough trend. It can't possibly be universal, but Star Trek has definitely felt as though the bar of entry to fandom groups -- not to fans, but to fandom groups -- feels unusually high (more than knowing your Intrepid-class from your Excelsior-class). It could be because the main heroes are hierarchical military officers? I'm not sure.
The sensation there was.. How to describe it...? There are certain social situations where you're sitting across from someone; their body language is forward, their eyes wide and they're not blinking much. They're buzzing with this energy to see whether or not you qualify to join their clique. It's difficult to tell whether they're excited to have you in or if they're excited to be running the test. That feeling of power and the gratification of "rightness", so to speak. That's all fine on its own, but when you're in a room of people like that, accepting your participation on a provisional basis (*levels hand* you must be this enthused to ride), it wears thin pretty quickly.
I gave up when it became clear not only were there sacred cows, there were Judas goats for the tigers. It wasn't as brazen as Digi's example, but the idea of being obligated to hate something didn't sit well with me, so I left. I've stuck with the occassional Trekker instead (my boss is one; she runs a good ship) and that arrangement's been nicely rewarding. I still watch a lot of Trek, talk a lot of Trek, but I'm not in the Trek fandom. I suppose you could call me a Federation sympathiser. Well....I have three, but might be that none of them is quite what you're looking for. One was my exodus due to the creatives, from the Mass Effect franchise. After the first game out, I became a massive superfan. I beat the game over and over to mop up every last achievement. I read every possible comic, every possible novel. I preordered Mass Effect 2 when that became possible, and then proceeded to track down and buy every last piece of retailer-exclusive release content...and beat the game over and over again to nail down every last achievement. I bought all the DLC, and played it over and over. I continued reading the books and comics religiously, the day they came out. Enter Mass Effect 3: I was as hyped as any human could be, I made sure I was able to play it AS SOON as it was available (I can't recall offhand whether this was lining up to buy or staying up till midnight to buy digitally). I even took time off work so I could sink all of my time into it. And I was having a blast, the game was just everything I wanted. Intense, emotional, sublime. And then the ending happened, and it was just such a complete and utter betrayal of everything that had led up to that point, that I walked away. I finished the game the once, the first time, and was so utterly shocked at the halfassed ending, the ending where every choice you'd made (that were supposed to matter!) was suddenly reduced to 'pick one of three colours.' And I walked away. I never played the game again, I never picked up another book or comic, I never picked up any of the previous games again, I never even considered playing Andromeda. Casey Hudson poisoned Mass Effect for me forever, and I have no interest in ever returning to it. [...] *brrr* I just got 'Nam flashbacks those were exactly my experiences come Mass Effect 3 as well.
As a sci-fi fan, you become accustomed to the idea that many of the stories you'll find will not have conclusive endings. Nowadays, it's very different, but back then it was considered an inevitability of television or film. Video games, however, were blessed with avoiding that bit of executive meddling. We could get the ending we wanted, no strings attached, and then we found out about BioWare's acquisition by Electronic Arts. EA Games has a reputation for souring the experiences of its subsidiaries and generally being rather unpleasant to work for. I've never gone anywhere near Mass Effect again primarily because of EA's meddling in the game (some additions stick out like poor skin grafts) and their subsequent responses to its release. They first denied they'd made such a claim in marketing. Then, they admitted they lied and said they were under no obligation to provide the content they'd promised. Enough pressure was brought to bear that eventually two DLCs were brought out: one that added a few vignettes to the ending and a Beach Episode interlude. By then, the damage had been well and truly done. It didn't help that I'd also played the original Deus Ex... and noticed that the endings were surprisingly similar to those you had to choose there. From a game that was a decade behind ME3. It gives one pause as a writer...
I still have fond memories of the first two games and the characters there. It is the final culmination of everything they set out to do in Knights of the Old Republic: the blending of every popular sci-fi property into a cohesive whole. But Mass Effect 3 is the titan of executive meddling gone wrong for me. They'd do exactly the same to the Command & Conquer franchise with Tiberian Twilight not long after. That wasn't as raw, though, as you didn't get to know the characters as personally in an RTS as an RPG.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Apr 13, 2019 0:19:08 GMT
Probably not what you're looking for but toxicity is the reason I've never really gotten involved in any kind of fandom. Growing up in a small city on an island at the tail end of an isolated country I never really knew many other fans of stuff I liked and most of my opinions and knowledge came from books and magazines (we also only had two tv channels and four cinema screens in town as well). My first real exposure to what fans were like was from the letters page of DWM. The naked hatred that some people had for what they professed to love was baffling to me. And as I got older and became interested in other things, those sorts of fans were everywhere: not just SF and Fantasy but in literature circles, sports, theatre, film, music... Bloody hell, music fans are the WORST! - just go onto any AC/DC forum and suggest that Brian Johnston isn't a bad frontman for the band and see what you get. It didn't stop me from engaging with content but it did stop me from finding other like-minded people for a long time because sooner or later, someone was going to come along and piss on my sandcastle. So I enjoyed stuff on my own largely: it's only been in the last decade or so that I've felt comfortable enough to really engage with other fans about my interests. On the plus side, it's made me focus largely on the books and shows without too much distraction but it has been a lonely kind of fannish life.
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Apr 13, 2019 1:55:03 GMT
early/mid 90's.. I was on a music forum for a legendary rock band.. Something happened, about 20 people got involved in Jerry Springerish verbal sparring... People were being slandered etc.. Someone got a lawyer involved who somehow got the owners of the forums internet provider involved- a legal letter demanding IP addresses (similar to the Metallica/Napster situation) of the idiots who were talking disgusting filth.. Eventually the site just shot down immediately with no warning exactly like the BF forum did.
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Post by barnabaslives on Apr 13, 2019 3:57:57 GMT
I'm sure I must not have what you're really looking for but I think any steering clear of fiction fandoms that I did was much less to do with the fandoms themselves and more the way they are sometimes viewed with prejudice. I think there was probably more than one SNL skit to cast Trekkies in a fairly bad light. One was Shatner playing himself at a Trek convention telling everyone to grow up and move out of their parent's basements, as if watching Trek makes you want to live with your parents or renders you incapable of anything else. (I dimly remember another where two nerds are about come to blows over warp drive specs or something).
I was suddenly a lot less interested in conventions or merchandise or paraphernalia or anything that would publicly announce that I was a fan, after seeing those. I used to think it was great fun that someone had fleshed out the mythology so much as for there to be starship diagrams or Klingon dictionaries, and after the parodies of fans I probably started to think of things like that as excessive.
Music fandom I have been chased away from somewhat by fans, mainly because of people who insist on being accusatory toward artists - "They're only in it for the money" or "This latest thing is just a money-grubbing tactic" until someone makes the traditional rebuttal that artists have a right to earn a living which often only holds off the cynical fans until about the count of five. One of the funniest things I ever saw was when someone replied to accusations against a band of profiteering with "and they'd have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids" - because they were the very same words I was looking for myself. Cynical fans really were sort of acting like a crime had taken place and they were sleuths.
That sort of got old, constantly feeling called upon to defend the artist's reputations from other fans. I think it can drag people down, too - you try to find a few negative things to say so you can try to show you're fair and balanced and not a sycophant, and if you're not lucky next you're offending less cynical fans and starting to sound more like the cynics, the more you try to convince the cynics that they're being too cynical.
I was mainly just trying to rejoice in bands still being together for this long and artists still going out and putting on a show at their respective ages, and trying to offer support for the artists while we're lucky enough to still be able to.
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Post by TinDogPodcast on Apr 25, 2019 15:00:48 GMT
People of the Divergent Universe I'm doing a paper on toxic fandom for university and I'm looking for anecdotes. Here's the question for everyone: What experiences have you had that made you leave a fandom? When I first started anothet podcast really started having a go at me personally and dedicated entire shows to insulting me. I almost stopped podcasting
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Post by Ela on Apr 25, 2019 17:44:02 GMT
People of the Divergent Universe I'm doing a paper on toxic fandom for university and I'm looking for anecdotes. Here's the question for everyone: What experiences have you had that made you leave a fandom? When I first started anothet podcast really started having a go at me personally and dedicated entire shows to insulting me. I almost stopped podcasting Sounds like the other podcasters needed to get a life. I can't imagine what possible motivation someone would have to dedicate an entire podcast to insulting another podcaster.
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Post by fingersmash on Apr 26, 2019 1:59:42 GMT
My paper is due tomorrow, so I'd like to extend my thanks to everyone who replied and gave stories. You've really assisted me here.
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Post by doctorkernow on Apr 28, 2019 14:14:12 GMT
Hello again.
Sorry Fingersmash missed this thread so this isn't much use to you now but I thought I'd post it anywa.
I follow some sport as a interested neutral. I love the Six Nations rugby, Wimbledon and a bit of football. For toxic fandoms you only have to visit the BBC Have your say comments after a Premiership football match.
My goodness the vitriol between fans against each others clubs has to be seen to be believed. The rivalries go back years, decades even. Some comments are positive, praising good teamwork or management. However, there are lot of commentators who are intolerant and downright rude beyond normal banter.
This years competition has been a two horse race with two teams who have been incredibly consistent. Whoever is second will still have gained more points than the winning team from some years.
Anyway, hope your paper went well, Fingersmash.
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