|
Post by nucleusofswarm on May 4, 2019 0:42:33 GMT
Beyond the quality of the work, what is it about your favourite creators, in whatever medium, that really has stuck with you and makes them have such meaning for you? Maybe recurring themes in their work that really speak to you, or maybe something about the creator's own life or outlook that maybe inspires you or makes you think?
|
|
|
Post by Digi on May 4, 2019 1:24:19 GMT
Honestly I'm pretty wary of creatives. After finding out some that I've quite enjoyed the writing or acting from are actual complete asshats in real life, I'm somewhat reluctant to invest too much into finding out about them for fear of it souring my enjoyment of their work. (Fortunately it turns out that most of the Big Finish crowd seem to be pretty decent folks).
|
|
shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,649
|
Post by shutupbanks on May 4, 2019 2:20:33 GMT
Discovering that they are decent or interesting human beings is always a bonus. A few examples:
Guy Gavriel Kay is a magnificent writer who is also very astute about people and history and his Twitter feed is a delight for his interest in politics, sport, whisky and very bad puns..
Ben Acker and Ben Blacker, the writing team behind The Thrilling Adventure Hour (possibly my favourite podcast series) as well as many other projects, are passionate about developing new writers but their writing is also hilarious with great wordplay and so much heart.
The late David Gemmell described himself as "slightly to the right of Margaret Thatcher" and was a great admirer of Ronald Reagan. Unlike many writers who resign from their jobs to concentrate on their writing, he was fired from his for naming characters after colleagues that he wasn't fond of. However he was one of the first writers of bestselling heroic fantasy to include minority characters, or female protagonists and he also threw in a few LGBT characters as well, way back in the 80s and 90s before "being PC" was seen as a "thing."
Anne McCaffrey wrote about gay characters in her Pern novels long before many other SF writers did and they were there as part of the background rather than for a plot point or to fill a quota. They were heroic and had roles in the story that didn't depend on their sexuality. Their depiction really doesn't stand up to today's standards of representation but she put them in her novels without making a big fuss about things. She did have some funny (Morgan Freeman's voice: "they really weren't that funny") ideas about homosexuality but I prefer to remember her for showing me a world where nobody cares about your orientation. She was also a big champion of new writers, so much so that at least two authors she gave a hand to featured her as a cameo in their novels.
Chris Evans is an actor of great ability but he is a thoroughly decent human being as well. He works with children's charities, often going to hospitals in costume, and works hard to combat injustice through his social media feed. He lends his voice and time to causes for people in a way that makes you wonder how much acting he is doing when he plays Captain America.
Terry Pratchett was an all-round fabulous human being too. Back in the 90s he lent his name to several charities that worked to save orangutans with no expectation of return. He fought his Alzheimer's disease all the way to the very bitter end and became an advocate for assisted dying as well as bringing so much awareness to it from the public. He advocated for the environment and renewable energies way back in the 80s and he also, when he received his knighthood, smelted and crafted his own sword from meteoric iron, or "sky metal" as they call it in fantasy! He had a real joy in life that was infectious.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on May 4, 2019 4:34:04 GMT
Discovering that they are decent or interesting human beings is always a bonus. A few examples: [...] Terry Pratchett was an all-round fabulous human being too. Back in the 90s he lent his name to several charities that worked to save orangutans with no expectation of return. He fought his Alzheimer's disease all the way to the very bitter end and became an advocate for assisted dying as well as bringing so much awareness to it from the public. He advocated for the environment and renewable energies way back in the 80s and he also, when he received his knighthood, smelted and crafted his own sword from meteoric iron, or "sky metal" as they call it in fantasy! He had a real joy in life that was infectious. Oh, Sir Terry... Our world's a little darker without him. He's an interesting example, he was indeed an all-round fabulous human being. He was also a phenomenally angry one. A very particular kind of anger that you can see all over his Discworld books and elsewhere besides. He had a very strong sense of what was right and what was wrong. He loathed injustice, shortsightedness, selfishness and all the other cruelties that humankind is capable of vesting upon itself. It fuels a great deal of his writing and is probably most prevalent in the Watch books like Snuff.
If you didn't know Pratchett or his works, just heard that he was angry, he'd sound like a pretty lousy human being. But that'd betray the joy and love he had for people, things and life in general. The man lived. He thrived in what time he had here. And even writers like Harlan Ellison, named as a thunder god by Gaiman (another lovely writer) for good reason, walked into the middle of a metropolitan no man's land to give a homeless woman money for the evening. His original script for City on the Edge of Forever was all about how even in the darkest specimens of humanity were capable of doing good. It was a belief he clung very heavily to.
I'm very against the concept of idealising people. I think that's a road to ruin and broken pedestals. At the end of the day, creatives are just people and people are fundamentally grey. They're not static or ciphers. It's all about keeping that balance, alongside overcoming preconceptions and prejudices. One of the big ones is that you don't need to suffer to make good art. That's a big one across creatives and audiences alike. Personal suffering does not equal good art.
|
|
|
Post by tuigirl on May 4, 2019 6:26:00 GMT
Honestly I'm pretty wary of creatives. After finding out some that I've quite enjoyed the writing or acting from are actual complete asshats in real life, I'm somewhat reluctant to invest too much into finding out about them for fear of it souring my enjoyment of their work. (Fortunately it turns out that most of the Big Finish crowd seem to be pretty decent folks). I used to be like this. But as I grew older, I am somehow able to separate art from the artist. Two of my most famous examples- During my youth, one of my favorite German books was about a detective who hunts a racist/ fascist super-villain. It is a great book, with fantastic ideas, humour and a fascinating dark villain with a good origin story. The way it is presented sucks you in. Back in the day, it was a bestseller in Germany and they even made a movie out of it. Sadly, it is written by an author who is now famous as a speaker on Alt Right/ Nazi Rallies. All German publishers have cut their ties with him and it is now impossible to buy his books anywhere, not even on Amazon.
I also quite like Enders Game (both the book and the movie, although the book is better) for its powerful message. The author however is a homophobic *****.
I still enjoy both books, independently of what has become of the authors.
I am intrigued how the people who created books with such powerful messages could be completely different from those messages. Did they mean something else? Did I misunderstand the messages? Was a powerful anti-racist story just a vehicle to secretly transport the violent and hateful message of the villain?
What has happened that the people who created this changed so much? Or did they change at all? Can art be seen separate from its creator? Or are they intrinsically linked? Is great art with a good message created by someone perceived as "bad" bad?
Really fascinating questions.
Just one more example that creators are just human and not black and white and subject to change.
It is especially ironic that the book by the (later Nazi/ White Supremacist) closes with the words by the villain: "The world is full of darkness. There is light, but also so much darkness. I have become evil. But remember that I once was good."
Sums it up perfectly for me.
Okay, now I think I did my philosophy for the day.
|
|
|
Post by tuigirl on May 4, 2019 6:28:41 GMT
Discovering that they are decent or interesting human beings is always a bonus. A few examples: [...] Terry Pratchett was an all-round fabulous human being too. Back in the 90s he lent his name to several charities that worked to save orangutans with no expectation of return. He fought his Alzheimer's disease all the way to the very bitter end and became an advocate for assisted dying as well as bringing so much awareness to it from the public. He advocated for the environment and renewable energies way back in the 80s and he also, when he received his knighthood, smelted and crafted his own sword from meteoric iron, or "sky metal" as they call it in fantasy! He had a real joy in life that was infectious. Oh, Sir Terry... Our world's a little darker without him. He's an interesting example, he was indeed an all-round fabulous human being. He was also a phenomenally angry one. A very particular kind of anger that you can see all over his Discworld books and elsewhere besides. He had a very strong sense of what was right and what was wrong. He loathed injustice, shortsightedness, selfishness and all the other cruelties that humankind is capable of vesting upon itself. It fuels a great deal of his writing and is probably most prevalent in the Watch books like Snuff.
If you didn't know Pratchett or his works, just heard that he was angry, he'd sound like a pretty lousy human being. But that'd betray the joy and love he had for people, things and life in general. The man lived. He thrived in what time he had here. And even writers like Harlan Ellison, named as a thunder god by Gaiman (another lovely writer) for good reason, walked into the middle of a metropolitan no man's land to give a homeless woman money for the evening. His original script for City on the Edge of Forever was all about how even in the darkest specimens of humanity were capable of doing good. It was a belief he clung very heavily to.
I'm very against the concept of idealising people. I think that's a road to ruin and broken pedestals. At the end of the day, creatives are just people and people are fundamentally grey. They're not static or ciphers. It's all about keeping that balance, alongside overcoming preconceptions and prejudices. One of the big ones is that you don't need to suffer to make good art. That's a big one across creatives and audiences alike. Personal suffering does not equal good art.
Very well said.
|
|
|
Post by tuigirl on May 4, 2019 6:47:19 GMT
As for a Who- example- for a long while I never voluntarily watched the series, but was forced to by my flatmates (and basically thought of it as bullsh*t). But I fell in love with the series Sherlock. I just adore Stephen Moffat's writing. He just totally clicks with me, and apart from the obvious... "not so good" episodes, I liked most of what he had done. In a moment of mindless nostalgia, I decided to check out "this other series he had been doing". I mean, what could possibly go wrong? And no one was forcing me this time, so I could stop watching it any time I liked.
Famous last words.
So yeah, I guess Stephen Moffat has changed a part of my life. I just adore his non-linear storytelling and have grown fond of his humour. I also think his "Day of the Doctor" book is some really clever writing, since it manages to keep a story which I have already seen a dozen times exciting and expanding on it and adding a new spin and surprises to it. Plus, he created River Song. What more can I say?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on May 4, 2019 11:15:28 GMT
Hmmmmm I not sure about this...... We seem to make allowances, for bad and down right wrong behaviour just because we like their work. We seem to think it’s ok to troll and persecute people for silly tweets, but think it’s fine to heap praise on long dead artists and writers whos actions were thoroughly reprehensible by today’s standards. The older I get the more I feel we heap praise and admire too much and the wrong people receive it........ The people who keep the sewers flowing, get food on your table and the ones who make you better when you are ill.......warrant my admiration much more than people who spend their lives playing pretend or sit indoors and write some words..... Not to say I don’t enjoy their work, but no more than the work from the people who built my house....... I'm sorry... Playing pretend? Write some words? That's a bit disingenuous. Stories make up the fundamental fabric of human societies as much as home utilities. More so, in some respects, narratives are ultimately what drive people to do what they do. Build houses, cure the sick, run charitable causes or literally chain themselves together around a building to keep people safe from harm.
Look at this forum, for instance. If all it were just some words, why have so many people linked together under these stories? Why do we come home from work at the end of the day and open a book/turn on the television/boot up the computer? Stories. Shared values that have the power to fashion whole communities. They've a phenomenal influence. Despite appearances, it's also just as taxing as any other occupation where people are "seen" to be doing things.
It's not easy. If it were, we'd never be surprised by anything. And besides, without stories and storytellers... Who's going to champion those the sanitation workers, farmers and doctors? Who tells their story? I know it's not intended as malicious. I know. But, don't disparage it. It actually takes a lot of work to make a good story.
|
|
|
Post by nucleusofswarm on May 4, 2019 12:04:01 GMT
Hmmmmm I not sure about this...... We seem to make allowances, for bad and down right wrong behaviour just because we like their work. We seem to think it’s ok to troll and persecute people for silly tweets, but think it’s fine to heap praise on long dead artists and writers whos actions were thoroughly reprehensible by today’s standards. The older I get the more I feel we heap praise and admire too much and the wrong people receive it........ The people who keep the sewers flowing, get food on your table and the ones who make you better when you are ill.......warrant my admiration much more than people who spend their lives playing pretend or sit indoors and write some words..... Not to say I don’t enjoy their work, but no more than the work from the people who built my house....... And when did any one say writers and artists cancel out the efforts of builders and plumbers? Why can't we admire both? There is such a thing as relativity.
I'm giving you benefit of the doubt here, but saying ''people who spend their lives playing pretend or sit indoors and write some words'' is not just disingenious, but more than a little disresecptful to the very long and labour-intensive process of making any media. Games, music, books, movies, TV, radio, comics, these don't come out of thin air or get made overnight. And there's more than a little crossover with 'real' jobs: both filmmakers and engineers or architects have to plan their projects in thorough detail, researching and calculating and trialing, and then pitch it to a client to get said thing made. If it gets made. After that, getting the thing made takes a lot of manpower, hours and expense. All that could be anywhere from a few months to years of your life, dedicated to this one project, whether it's a hospital or a sewer or a film or a song or a video game.
|
|
|
Post by muckypup on May 4, 2019 12:59:09 GMT
I think you guys are miss understanding me or I am not put what I mean correctly ........
But I am not sure how to put it a different way.........
I am not trying to be disrespectful........so will delete original post......
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on May 4, 2019 22:39:07 GMT
I think you guys are miss understanding me or I am not put what I mean correctly ........ But I am not sure how to put it a different way......... I am not trying to be disrespectful........so will delete original post...... I think it's a bit of both. Look, if you didn't mean it to be disrespectful, then alright. That can be understood. But, also understand creatives get remarks phrased that way all the time.
In the very worst cases, I've seen people try (and fail) to bully artists into providing content, it's taken for granted. It happens to us, to our friends, to our colleagues. In fact, here's a phrase that will make some people twitch: "Why don't you get a real job?" Ha. Real... This forum and the love we show to the wonderful BF people is a very nice, very real phenomenon. It's certainly not unique, but it takes an awful lot of effort to get to that point.
Ironically, getting back to the beginning of the thread, some of the bitterness exhibited in creatives comes from exactly stuff like this. People treating other people's vocation like crap. Like commodities. Because it isn't "real" (i.e. a manual labour job; nevermind that we work like admin). And again, you've not done it deliberately and that can be understood.
This isn't about getting you to feel shame. That serves no purpose and is a pretty crappy way of resolving problems, so I want this to be understood. Creatives are people, vocations take effort and its all about keeping that balance. Just as much effort is put into a creative endeavour as putting grout in the brickwork.
|
|
|
Post by muckypup on May 5, 2019 10:43:31 GMT
I think you guys are miss understanding me or I am not put what I mean correctly ........ But I am not sure how to put it a different way......... I am not trying to be disrespectful........so will delete original post...... I think it's a bit of both. Look, if you didn't mean it to be disrespectful, then alright. That can be understood. But, also understand creatives get remarks phrased that way all the time.
In the very worst cases, I've seen people try (and fail) to bully artists into providing content, it's taken for granted. It happens to us, to our friends, to our colleagues. In fact, here's a phrase that will make some people twitch: "Why don't you get a real job?" Ha. Real... This forum and the love we show to the wonderful BF people is a very nice, very real phenomenon. It's certainly not unique, but it takes an awful lot of effort to get to that point.
Ironically, getting back to the beginning of the thread, some of the bitterness exhibited in creatives comes from exactly stuff like this. People treating other people's vocation like crap. Like commodities. Because it isn't "real" (i.e. a manual labour job; nevermind that we work like admin). And again, you've not done it deliberately and that can be understood.
This isn't about getting you to feel shame. That serves no purpose and is a pretty crappy way of resolving problems, so I want this to be understood. Creatives are people, vocations take effort and its all about keeping that balance. Just as much effort is put into a creative endeavour as putting grout in the brickwork.
First thanks for taking time to reply..... but my point was not really about the work, even though that’s how it read......I still don’t really know how to put it, so I will just leave it......but I respect and honour everyone equally....... and my hero’s used to be entrainment based but they have constantly been shown & by their actions to not be worthy of my adoration.
|
|
|
Post by nucleusofswarm on May 5, 2019 14:21:14 GMT
Voice actor Marissa Lentl says it best:
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on May 5, 2019 23:19:34 GMT
Voice actor Marissa Lentl says it best: To add to that: There comes a point in the life of children when they cease to be defined by their parents. Same is true of characters and authors. Those feelings of inspiration, those good vibes you got from their work, are just as real now as they were then. You don't need someone's permission to feel good about something. Disappointment or no, always remember that.
|
|