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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2019 7:26:36 GMT
The thing is...Gareth didn't just make these two tweets, it's been something he's been called out on many times before. He also had major heat when he responded to the Zygon 2-parter in Series 9 with some very troubling views about Islamic terror. His Twitter has become a lot more toxic over the years.
Yet, he can think these things all he wants. He can post them all he wants. He can say them all he wants. Just like we can all say he's a moron for doing so. Just like BBC Books are entitled to cut him out. Just like other artists are entitled to say they don't want to be associated with him. No-ones taking his free speech away but just exercising their free speech in return.
I've never been a fan of his work overall (did his work really deserve a deluxe box set?) but I'd like to think I would say the same of my favourite Who writers if they were in Gareth's boat.
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Post by frisby78 on Jun 8, 2019 8:39:02 GMT
You also have to think many of us would suffer some form of punishment in our places of employment if we said such idiotic and upsetting things. Why should he be any different because he's a highly regarded, God knows why, author.
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Post by project37 on Jun 8, 2019 19:33:04 GMT
This is all very disappointing news to me. I honestly had no idea that he'd held these views and was out of the loop regarding some of his other statements. I enjoyed things like The One Doctor, Only Human, and his appearances on the various DW DVD documentaries during their heyday - he seemed like a good guy. It just sucks to see people so dismissive and harshly intolerant about the experiences of our fellow human beings.
My heart was genuinely broken reading about the bus attack in London this week. I don't get how people can be so cruel about others just living their lives. Those attackers (children!) didn't get that hate from nowhere. Words count for a lot when it comes to establishing and reinforcing ideas and as a writer he should know that. His self-serving piece on Medium was just that.
I'll echo what others have said - the man has every right to his opinion. The publisher has every right to make their own decisions as they see fit. I'm not shedding any tears for his getting bumped from the project.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jun 8, 2019 20:21:14 GMT
Terrible. Speaking of the Beeb, they did a bit on a transwoman who fought in WW2 (Fitting time, too):
Speaking of history I suggest people look up the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft, a pioneer facility in gay and trans research in early 20th century Germany, destroyed by the Nazis.
And, alas, in the same time-frame as the bus attack, another transwoman's been killed in America. The ninth this year:
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Post by dasmaniac on Jun 9, 2019 21:47:11 GMT
I was not aware that he has a history of making anti-trans remarks. That's a shame.
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Post by mark687 on Jun 14, 2019 21:44:19 GMT
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jun 14, 2019 21:49:01 GMT
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Post by Star Platinum on Jun 14, 2019 21:55:45 GMT
if the first article was him shooting himself in the foot, this one is the equivalent of blowing off the other leg for good measure.
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Jun 14, 2019 22:21:11 GMT
Interesting read.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2019 22:46:17 GMT
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Post by Digi on Jun 14, 2019 23:04:14 GMT
So he's 'evolved' from TV-length pity party to feature length pity party. Yawn.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2019 7:26:54 GMT
if the first article was him shooting himself in the foot, this one is the equivalent of blowing off the other leg for good measure. He also tweeted that RTD's new show Years And Years is "lefty nonsense" this week but then deleted the tweet the next day. So he does have some level of self censorship! His article is quite illuminating - completely misrepresenting what he said and the impact of it. It's amazing how often people in his position will try and turn it into themselves who have been victimised. You don't need to be "woke" to think making life as comfortable as possible for a whole group in society struggling to do nothing more than exist is a good thing. You don't need to be "woke" to think that if other groups want to define their own terms, even if you don't agree, that staying quiet and just letting people define their own futures is a good thing. You don't need to be "woke" to realise that you've turned into that middle aged bald fat guy down the pub who has an opinion on everything - and usually quite aggressive, patronising ones. If there's anything I truly hate these days, with the rise of popularism, it's the notion that being decent, being yes.... "politically correct" is somehow wrong. I'd be quite happy going about my day making as few people feel terrible about themselves as possible.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jun 15, 2019 12:43:30 GMT
Its a facepalm moment on the double down of stupidity
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Post by stcoop on Jun 15, 2019 15:54:11 GMT
It's weird but the most transphobic people I've met have been gay men and hardcore feminists; two groups who you would expect to sympathise most with discriminated and abused groups of people.
In Robert's case he seems to be totally blind to the fact that his arguments are very same ones that the MRA brigade would make against him and his existence.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2019 16:14:41 GMT
It seemed quite a well reasoned article to me. Judging by the feedback it would appear to have struck a chord with many concerned about the way the series has been appropriated by a niche but very vocal element of the so called 'fan community'. I think that Gareth suggests that he would not have been so vocal himself if so called 'woke' interest groups have not been so hyper sensitive to 'hate thought' in recent years. It all brings to mind The Prisoner: Attachments:
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Post by sherlock on Jun 15, 2019 16:33:10 GMT
Oh he doubled down. Moving swiftly on...
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Post by stcoop on Jun 15, 2019 16:34:15 GMT
It seemed quite a well reasoned article to me. Judging by the feedback it would appear to have struck a chord with many concerned about the way the series has been appropriated by a niche but very vocal element of the so called 'fan community'. I think that Gareth suggests that he would not have been so vocal himself if so called 'woke' interest groups have not been so hyper sensitive to 'hate thought' in recent years.
What is the correct balance of discrimination versus non-discrimination that you think the series should employ? If there's an episode that suggests that it's wrong to be a nazi, should there be one that's pro-White Supremacy to balance it out?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2019 16:59:26 GMT
It seemed quite a well reasoned article to me. Judging by the feedback it would appear to have struck a chord with many concerned about the way the series has been appropriated by a niche but very vocal element of the so called 'fan community'. I think that Gareth suggests that he would not have been so vocal himself if so called 'woke' interest groups have not been so hyper sensitive to 'hate thought' in recent years.
What is the correct balance of discrimination versus non-discrimination that you think the series should employ? If there's an episode that suggests that it's wrong to be a nazi, should there be one that's pro-White Supremacy to balance it out?
That's precisely the thing that gets many peoples backs up. Anyone who disagrees is a 'Nazi' these days. A middle aged guy out on parliament square surrounded by a hate filled mob screaming 'Nazi Scum' before attacking him. Gareth Roberts was not refusing to share a platform with anyone he disagreed with, but was easily no-platformed himself. Is Martina Navratilova a Nazi too? Or Sharron Davies? Gareth does raise the point himself. Did Martina deserve to be removed from the advisory board of Athlete Ally for raising concerns about transgender athletes competing in women only sporting contests? Who is doing the hate? Who is demanding retribution and punishment for disagreeing?
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jun 15, 2019 17:02:28 GMT
It seemed quite a well reasoned article to me. Judging by the feedback it would appear to have struck a chord with many concerned about the way the series has been appropriated by a niche but very vocal element of the so called 'fan community'. I think that Gareth suggests that he would not have been so vocal himself if so called 'woke' interest groups have not been so hyper sensitive to 'hate thought' in recent years.
What is the correct balance of discrimination versus non-discrimination that you think the series should employ? If there's an episode that suggests that it's wrong to be a nazi, should there be one that's pro-White Supremacy to balance it out?
Right. I'm hoping (and assuming) you're taking a sarcastic swipe here, but if you're not then I'm going to do something that I don't normally do, just be as blunt as can be to get the message out: Don't talk crap. Everything has a side, but in some cases it's a right side and a wrong, and pro discrimination is a wrong side. It doesn't warrant or deserve any equal billing to anti discrimination and should never be given any. Its only existence should be as an object lesson of what to oppose. There's no imaginary balance here. Gareth Roberts has had his little tantrum on twitter, and then doubled down further: oh wasn't it all bants anyway, oh, I'm being called on it and there are consequences, how could that ever happen to me? Aren't I a minority too? No opinion of mine could (a) be wrong and (b) be hurtful, because reasons. Oh, you can't engage with that lot anyway when you're a cis white male. Oh, the inhumanity of it all, those petty 'woke' pretend fans, not REAL fans like me. F**K OFF. (Above not aimed at stcoop or daver)
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jun 15, 2019 17:08:07 GMT
What is the correct balance of discrimination versus non-discrimination that you think the series should employ? If there's an episode that suggests that it's wrong to be a nazi, should there be one that's pro-White Supremacy to balance it out?
That's precisely the thing that gets many peoples backs up. Anyone who disagrees is a 'Nazi' these days. A middle aged guy out on parliament square surrounded by a hate filled mob screaming 'Nazi Scum' before attacking him. Gareth Roberts was not refusing to share a platform with anyone he disagreed with, but was easily no-platformed himself. Is Martina Navratilova a Nazi too? Or Sharron Davies? Gareth does raise the point himself. Did Martina deserve to be removed from the advisory board of Athlete Ally for raising concerns about transgender athletes competing in women only sporting contests? Who is doing the hate? Who is demanding retribution and punishment for disagreeing? Well done for whataboutery. That's exactly what Roberts himself is doing. What do any of those other situations have to do with it? Roberts is responsible for his own actions, as are they.
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