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Post by J.A. Prentice on Jul 18, 2019 6:47:42 GMT
A good debate. I always rate out of 10, where 5 is average (because it is in the middle), 6 is good, 7 very good, etc. 10 is flawless, because you can't go above 10. I don't think I have ever given a 10, but a few 9's definitely because the stories were so good they were brilliant. What does my head in, is the awarding of 10 out of 10 for any old story (which a few do on the **********.com, which must do imperialheathen's head in, not to mention the 1's). Or, someone will score a story a 7, and then moan now bad it is. A 7? That's only 3 away from being perfect and a distant 7 away from being the worst story ever!? Surely a 7 is a very good, but with niggles and other bits etc that hold it back from being excellent (at 8 in case you are wondering). If everyone used ljwilson's amazingly logical scoring system the world would be much simpler, and I would rule! I'll get mi coat.. The whole "What does X/10 actually mean?" issue cropped up when a friend and I were doing podcasts for the latest series of TV shows. I've since decided to drop rating things with number scores entirely. As subjective as "I liked it" or "I loved it" or "I hated it" can be, it's still more meaningful than an "6" which can mean anything from "good but flawed" to "bad but not irredeemable." To answer the original question, I'd agree "good" is the standard. Most stories are enjoyable, but not anything incredible. I find it depends on the range – the Fourth Doctor Adventures tend to be on the blander side, The War Master has been remarkable, etc. – but Big Finish doesn't make much that's actually bad, although there are a few spinoffs that just don't appeal to me at all.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jul 20, 2019 0:02:41 GMT
Huh. I was going to post up something similar. Well shucks, a lot of good points already here.
I will say, I think BF's niche-ness does play a role in perception of the stories: how many of even BF's hardcore devotees, never mind people who review releases, have radio drama, or really non-visual narrative media, as part of their regular entertainment diet? Because we are, to an extent, exposed and conditioned to visual forms like film, TV and theatre and how they work. You may not be able to explain, but you just know when soemthing's wrong with a movie or episode.
With audio dramas, what can be argued to be problems with the stories can be chalked up to 'part of this strange medium I am not as familiar with': overlong, expositional dialogue can be seen as a 'necessary evil', given you can't see what the characters can. Issues with pacing can be brushed off as, again, lack of experience with the medium. Even the format: well, it's more like Classic Who with its serialized multi-parters, so some of the concessions made to those stories are transferred over, even though that was then and BF is now and has changed and tinkered with said format plenty. As a result, a very run-of-the-mill, predictable Who story on audio can have a veneer that its comparable TV counterpart would not have, by comparison, because you're processing it in a different fashion.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2019 9:10:40 GMT
Huh. I was going to post up something similar. Well shucks, a lot of good points already here. I will say, I think BF's niche-ness does play a role in perception of the stories: how many of even BF's hardcore devotees, never mind people who review releases, have radio drama, or really non-visual narrative media, as part of their regular entertainment diet? Because we are, to an extent, exposed and conditioned to visual forms like film, TV and theatre and how they work. You may not be able to explain, but you just know when soemthing's wrong with a movie or episode. With audio dramas, what can be argued to be problems with the stories can be chalked up to 'part of this strange medium I am not as familiar with': overlong, expositional dialogue can be seen as a 'necessary evil', given you can't see what the characters can. Issues with pacing can be brushed off as, again, lack of experience with the medium. Even the format: well, it's more like Classic Who with its serialized multi-parters, so some of the concessions made to those stories are transferred over, even though that was then and BF is now and has changed and tinkered with said format plenty. As a result, a very run-of-the-mill, predictable Who story on audio can have a veneer that its comparable TV counterpart would not have, by comparison, because you're processing it in a different fashion.Oh, I didn't even think of that, that's very true. A large part of the appeal, why its so accessible, is also that we are ultimately the production designers. We get to decide what the story looks like and the only limiting factor there is the sound design. How many people listening to The Reaping conjured up New Series production values in 16:9? How many went for the '85 grunge of Edge of Darkness or the '79 of Halloween? Does Sixie wear a blue coat when he's travelling with Charley or not? Is the Second Doctor's hair greying in Helicon Prime? Tiny little details that we just take as writ, but can be radically different from how the next listener over visualises it all. It's not a Big Finish example, but I remember The Ark -- a First Doctor story -- in colour because that's how I first read it in the novelisation. Someone who'd gone through the reverse, television then Target, would naturally have a different picture in their head. (Same with a lot of stories come to think of it, I think Doctor Who went "colour" for me circa Galaxy Four...)
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Jul 22, 2019 10:28:06 GMT
Like others have said this is a very interesting discussion and a lot of good points made.
I suppose the "standard" depends on whatever else you are comparing it to. If you are comparing a BF release to general entertainment / media purchases then most of the 8/9/10 out of 10 reviews are (imho) justified because BF is so much better than a lot of the stuff out there. If you are comparing BF to other BF then the reviews are too good. As others have remarked, 90% of what BF release cannot be "one of the best things BF have ever done" - it simply doesn't make logical sense.
Slight digression, but whenever I am involved in recruitment exercises HR always want us to mark every answer out of 10. To me this is worse than meaningless as, for instance, how do you sensibly and meaningfully draw the line between a 6/10 and a 7/10 answer to a question. I always annoy HR by refusing to do so and insist upon a score out of 5 with only 3 options available 1 for poor, 3 for average/standard and 5 for excellent. It is much simpler, more meaningful, more black and white, and more likely to produce a clear "winner". Perhaps this would be a better scale to use when reviewing BF?
In terms of my own personal enjoyment I genuinely enjoy 99% of what I hear from BF, and my negative criticisms tend to be minor niggles more than anything else. However it could be argued that I am akin to an addict getting a fix and my critical faculties therefore do not function properly where BF is concerned.
The other thing I have noticed about my enjoyment of BF (and all media content) is that I use it for escapism and when I look back on what I really enjoyed or did not enjoy, it often correlates to what was going on in my life at the time I listened/watched/read. I enjoy BF a lot more if there is something moderately stressful going on in my life at the time and BF serves as a means of escape compared to the level of enjoyment I get when the backdrop is just the ordinary run of the mill humdrum routine of daily living. If there is something very stressful (or very good) going on I do not enjoy BF at all, but that is because my mind is preoccupied with whatever is going on and I am tuning in and out of BF, with the result that I fail to follow the story and know what is going on - but that is my fault, not BF's.
And as for DWM reviews? They have never been as good since Gary Russell stopped doing them. Bring back Off the Shelf ...
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Post by muckypup on Jul 22, 2019 11:13:46 GMT
I actually think we have too much of a good thing from big finish and forget just how competent they are delivering great well written well produced content as often as they do. When radio 4 was the benchmark for audio 20 years ago, listen today and you will realise just how good big finish has got.
Other companies come nowhere close to BF, with there little understanding of drama, delivering narration, exposition Heavy, speech bubbles and stock music releases
Sure sometimes the stories less than wow us, but that goes for most things in life.......
Personally I would pitch most releases at 8 (boxes usually 7),
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Post by elkawho on Jul 23, 2019 5:44:40 GMT
I actually think we have too much of a good thing from big finish and forget just how competent they are delivering great well written well produced content as often as they do. When radio 4 was the benchmark for audio 20 years ago, listen today and you will realise just how good big finish has got. Other companies come nowhere close to BF, with there little understanding of drama, delivering narration, exposition Heavy, speech bubbles and stock music releases Sure sometimes the stories less than wow us, but that goes for most things in life....... Personally I would pitch most releases at 8 (boxes usually 7), Agreed. I have been listening to other audio drama recently and while I enjoy quite a lot of it what really stands out for me is how much better BF is at almost everything. I recently listened to another company's Blake 7 audio. I enjoyed the story and it was a good listen, but it wasn't the same. There's a standard that BF seems to have in the writing. A depth of character and story that others miss, add to that the quality of the acting and production values and they are way above other audio I've heard. But BF also release so much more product at a faster pace than most, so they have had a lot of time to perfect what they do. All this is why I have come to expect a certain quality from BF that I might not expect from another company. There are releases that I hear that I think are good for BF, but might consider very good or excellent if they came from someone else. That may not be fair, but BF themselves have raised the bar, more frequently than not seem to at least meet it.
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Post by tuigirl on Jul 23, 2019 6:16:10 GMT
Another comparison that comes to mind (at least for a German) are the audio dramas in my country. I grew up with audio dramas and I am one of the German generation of "Kassettenkinder" (kids that have been raised on audio drama). It is immensely popular over here, and live shows of our heroes fill whole sports arenas. This month is also the 40th anniversary of the most popular German series, and they also did a live stream event and had a 5 hour release.
But this German series, although it has been going on for so long, is made by a much smaller company with a much smaller studio- and the music and sound design is often repeated in all the ongoing episodes. You can hear car and bird sounds for example straight out of the tin over and over again.
Now that I have come to love Big Finish, I can see the differences- BF is just another step up. I think I can only compare the early Big Finish releases with the German series, what we have now is much more cinematic. Maybe that is why I was so WOWed(!) when I first heard Dark Eyes. However, I still love the German stuff, too. How could I not? It is basically in my blood.
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Post by number13 on Aug 1, 2019 0:34:24 GMT
Interesting thread Whovitt and sorry I haven't contributed sooner, busy summer.
I know you weren't aiming this thread at anyone in particular, but I did see myself in your brilliant / fantastic / excellent starting post. My contributions tend to suffer from incurable hyperbolitis and I know it! But what am I to do when I enjoy BF so much - and not only the DW ranges but the Originals, the Avengers, the Classics etc. Truth is, BF are just so good at what they do - quality drama in exactly the sort of genres I enjoy most - excellence is their business.
When I say 'excellent', I mean 'this release pleased me a lot, I regard the listening time and money as well spent and I will certainly be listening to it again'. So most of BF is "excellent" (I can't help it, BF brings out the Cyberleader in me) and I think myself so lucky to have found a source of entertainment which gives the impression of being tailored personally for me. Bankruptcy and my CD collection growing to the point where it collapses under gravity to form a black hole are possible drawbacks, but I'm willing to take the risk.
A few releases are 'ho-hum' non-events, nothing to dislike but nothing memorable and there certainly are releases I do dislike, not many but they exist and I'm willing to say so (one day I will post my comments on 'The Holy Terror'... ). Recent examples have been (in no particular order) TNCM: 'The Splintered Man', TW:'Night of the Fendahl', 1DAs:'Tick-Tock World' but even listing those few I can hear hackles rising as some reader or other thinks "I LOVE that story". And on a second listen MR:'The Helliax Rift' came across to me as an anti-UNIT story in a way it hadn't first time round, which of course doomed it in my opinion!
Then, what do I say about the very, very best? Well, there are some BF releases which for me have been well beyond "excellent" - audios which are totally unforgettable experiences for one reason or another. There's a fairly long list of these! This year so far I think the 3DAs, Missy, the 4DAs Series 8 and the Comic Strip adaptations are at the top of that list for 2019. Stunning! Superb! Outstanding! Magnificent! etc etc
And of course, 'The Legacy of Time', of which I'm on my second listen of parts 1-5, with the finale still waiting for me to discover it... How can I comment on that story without my keyboard going into an enthusisasm-induced meltdown?
EDIT: If any of that came across as a bit sarky, it really wasn't meant to be!
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ljwilson
Chancellery Guard
It's tangerine....not orange
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Post by ljwilson on Aug 9, 2019 17:27:09 GMT
Interesting thread Whovitt and sorry I haven't contributed sooner, busy summer.
I know you weren't aiming this thread at anyone in particular, but I did see myself in your brilliant / fantastic / excellent starting post. My contributions tend to suffer from incurable hyperbolitis and I know it! But what am I to do when I enjoy BF so much - and not only the DW ranges but the Originals, the Avengers, the Classics etc. Truth is, BF are just so good at what they do - quality drama in exactly the sort of genres I enjoy most - excellence is their business.
When I say 'excellent', I mean 'this release pleased me a lot, I regard the listening time and money as well spent and I will certainly be listening to it again'. So most of BF is "excellent" (I can't help it, BF brings out the Cyberleader in me) and I think myself so lucky to have found a source of entertainment which gives the impression of being tailored personally for me. Bankruptcy and my CD collection growing to the point where it collapses under gravity to form a black hole are possible drawbacks, but I'm willing to take the risk.
A few releases are 'ho-hum' non-events, nothing to dislike but nothing memorable and there certainly are releases I do dislike, not many but they exist and I'm willing to say so (one day I will post my comments on 'The Holy Terror'... ). Recent examples have been (in no particular order) TNCM: 'The Splintered Man', TW:'Night of the Fendahl', 1DAs:'Tick-Tock World' but even listing those few I can hear hackles rising as some reader or other thinks "I LOVE that story". And on a second listen MR:'The Helliax Rift' came across to me as an anti-UNIT story in a way it hadn't first time round, which of course doomed it in my opinion!
Then, what do I say about the very, very best? Well, there are some BF releases which for me have been well beyond "excellent" - audios which are totally unforgettable experiences for one reason or another. There's a fairly long list of these! This year so far I think the 3DAs, Missy, the 4DAs Series 8 and the Comic Strip adaptations are at the top of that list for 2019. Stunning! Superb! Outstanding! Magnificent! etc etc
And of course, 'The Legacy of Time', of which I'm on my second listen of parts 1-5, with the finale still waiting for me to discover it... How can I comment on that story without my keyboard going into an enthusisasm-induced meltdown?
EDIT: If any of that came across as a bit sarky, it really wasn't meant to be!
I've revisited The Splintered Man and it was much better than my first impression.
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Tony Jones
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Professor Chronotis
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Post by Tony Jones on Aug 9, 2019 19:49:11 GMT
I always try to find a positive angle in stories I don't like when I review them and on the few occasions I have been particularly negative I have let Big Finish know as the review goes up. The whole scoring thing is hard work sometimes and for me a 3.5 start review out of 5 is still a good story with reservations I spell out in the text.
I do feel the standard is generally in the upper-quartile though there are times you can see the joins in the story. I might have a particular insight as I've written a couple, plus I occasionally talk to BF people. Of course it can't all be perfect. It's certainly easy to over-praise some of the earlier Big Finish stories, and even suggest the main range is getting a bit stale then along comes the recent 7th Doctor / Mags trilogy. I had no expectations for this and in the end felt it one of the best things the main range has done for years!
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