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Post by Ela on Jul 24, 2019 18:02:08 GMT
The issue with Dreyfus isn’t that his view is some opposing “political” opinion. To simply call them “opinions” is undermining how harmful his transphobic views are. Doctor Who means the world to a lot of viewers/listeners, and undoubtedly there’s a considerable portion that identify as trans. I can’t imagine how they feel when a company they love (Big Finish) continues to work with someone, Dreyfus, who’s made it publicly clear that he doesn’t support trans people. It unfortunately adds a sour taste to the whole thing, and makes trans fans feel like they’re outcasts when they feel unwelcome by one of the big actors in a story. Nobody wants to feel unwanted like that. I find it equally disheartening that a few people here are trying to sideline the subject by suggesting that another thread should be made (I’d be curious to see who’d actually follow up and participate in it vs. those who may be just saying it to avoid it). I get it, though: this release sounds awesome and exciting, so I understand the desire to talk about the news, and everyone is completely entitled to do so! No one likes it when someone comes in and ruins the fun. But to quite a few, this release has a big elephant in the room and the fun was already tainted for them when a particular actor decided to say terrible things. I myself am really conflicted on this. I’m excited for the release and want to hear the story, but more importantly I don’t want to support someone who holds such harmful views while they are part of something I love. It’s just an all-around bummer :/ I hope I haven’t come across as “that guy” who’s rained on your parade. I even hate the idea of me doing that. I also want to make it clear that I'm not telling you how to feel. If anything, this is how I feel about it. And I felt there wasn’t a lot of consideration being put forth (at the moment) for those who feel disappointed and saddened by this, and I wanted to at least voice some valid concerns that I worried were being swept away before they were even heard. I don't believe that starting another thread would sideline the issue. It's more likely to highlight the issue, based on my experience with this forum. And I suspect quite a number of people would follow it and comment. We can be a contentious bunch, at times. The fact of the matter is that this is a thread dedicated to discussing new releases themselves. Not politics and/or the controversies surrounding certain potential actors (which I have no doubt exist). I have no problem with separating these posts into a separate thread discussing these issues, if someone wants to suggest an appropriate title for the thread.
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Post by Lafayette on Jul 24, 2019 18:08:35 GMT
Sorry if I disheartened you. My suggestion was based on the assumption that ongoing dialogue could take place on a separate thread without being interrupted by news of other Main Range Details and Discussions, which is the function of this thread. No intention to sideline anything is intended. I'd be obliged if you didn't try to sully my intentions. Thanks. Sorry to misinterpret your intent! I definitely don't want to be putting shame on any individual or negatively characterize them, so again, I apologize for that. And I see where you're coming from. I debated internally for a long time whether or not to even post here, as this thread was originally for main range news and discussions. I do think a topic about separating art from the artist (or whether not to) is a very interesting and complex subject that warrants its own thread; Yet, my ultimate reasoning was that this topic was relevant to the discussion of this particular release.
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Post by levi3o4 on Jul 24, 2019 18:09:55 GMT
The issue with Dreyfus isn’t that his view is some opposing “political” opinion. To simply call them “opinions” is undermining how harmful his transphobic views are. Doctor Who means the world to a lot of viewers/listeners, and undoubtedly there’s a considerable portion that identify as trans. I can’t imagine how they feel when a company they love (Big Finish) continues to work with someone, Dreyfus, who’s made it publicly clear that he doesn’t support trans people. It unfortunately adds a sour taste to the whole thing, and makes trans fans feel like they’re outcasts when they feel unwelcome by one of the big actors in a story. Nobody wants to feel unwanted like that. I find it equally disheartening that a few people here are trying to sideline the subject by suggesting that another thread should be made (I’d be curious to see who’d actually follow up and participate in it vs. those who may be just saying it to avoid it). I get it, though: this release sounds awesome and exciting, so I understand the desire to talk about the news, and everyone is completely entitled to do so! No one likes it when someone comes in and ruins the fun. But to quite a few, this release has a big elephant in the room and the fun was already tainted for them when a particular actor decided to say terrible things. I myself am really conflicted on this. I’m excited for the release and want to hear the story, but more importantly I don’t want to support someone who holds such harmful views while they are part of something I love. It’s just an all-around bummer :/ I hope I haven’t come across as “that guy” who’s rained on your parade. I even hate the idea of me doing that. I also want to make it clear that I'm not telling you how to feel. If anything, this is how I feel about it. And I felt there wasn’t a lot of consideration being put forth (at the moment) for those who feel disappointed and saddened by this, and I wanted to at least voice some valid concerns that I worried were being swept away before they were even heard. I don't believe that starting another thread would sideline the issue. It's more likely to highlight the issue, based on my experience with this forum. And I suspect quite a number of people would follow it and comment. We can be a contentious bunch, at times. The fact of the matter is that this is a thread dedicated to discussing new releases themselves. Not politics and/or the controversies surrounding certain potential actors (which I have no doubt exist). I have no problem with separating these posts into a separate thread discussing these issues, if someone wants to suggest an appropriate title for the thread. I fail to see how this discussion is not a discussion of the release itself. The release features three actors whose presence had a negative impact on some peoples' enjoyment. That is as relevant to the discussion of the release as "oh, nice, the Psychic Circus is back!" (Which, ftr, is a perfectly valid thing to be excited about.) At this point, the only discussion that isn't about the release itself comes down to "should this be on this thread or some other thread."
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 24, 2019 18:17:08 GMT
Self-expression is not a problem most people have on this board. The suggestion that a separate thread would be fitting for this discussion isn't an attempt to stifle debate but rather to encourage it where it can happen on its own terms and without being cluttered by the purpose of this particular thread.
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Post by barnabaslives on Jul 24, 2019 20:00:31 GMT
I'd like to see a separate thread about this - not because I think the purpose of this thread has been subverted, but because I think the subject is important enough not to get buried in this thread, and because I think the subject may be important for some time to come.
Another reason I'd be pleased a separate thread see this happen is because I'm interested in such a discussion - I need to sort out how I feel about the matter.
Might such a thread be titled "Unpopular Actor Opinions" or something to that effect?
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Post by fantasticalice on Jul 25, 2019 7:31:34 GMT
Do they? Don’t they? I don’t know. And is this the best place on this forum to have this discussion? Honestly, my first impulse is to respond to this "Do they?" line of questioning... Really negatively. Transphobia is a real thing, and anti-semitism is a real thing. They affect real people. I don't know if you're on the receiving end of either, but for those of us who are, they're a big deal. Working with an actor is, to a certain extent, an endorsement of them as a person. There's a reason bts material tends to always include a section talking about how wonderful each individual actor is. And as for whether this is the appropriate spot to discuss that... Well, it's the thread for the affected product range, isn't it? A separate thread later might be nice, but at the moment, this seems pretty appropriate. This sort of "but should we really be talking about this? And here?" invalidates the urgency of the concern. If you don't see that urgency... Maybe look at it from someone else's point of view. I am Jewish, I was born intersexed and also identify as genderqueer genderfluid. But because I am intersex I have and will get bullied, beaten, teased, insulted, abused, and sexually assaulted for my appearance regardless of whether I attempt male or female. And as an intersex person I am in many ways both. In the last year after nearly a decade of peace I have started facing harassment, nastiness and dirty looks and long stares. Saying trans and intersex people are disgusting freaks and child abusers or that we are trying to take away women's rights or that all transwomen are just men who want to sneak into bathrooms to attack women(which doesnt happen.) makes many many people including both former and future cast and crew members of Big Finish. As well as the writers of recent Doctor Who stories and little girls who are fans of the singer pink and a significant portion of the lesbian community. I know of clubs that have had multiuse unisex bathrooms for 20 years with no problems. If a man wants to attack a woman he will just walk in and do it. And quite frankjly making bathroom laws will force bearded muscular transmen to use the ladies. People Like Buck Angle and Chas Bono will be forced to use the ladies. And when this third rate msiguided hate mongering bathroom law is forcing men who look like me ot use the ladies because of their birth ceritifcate..... then Bearded masculine men will find it even easier to walk into a ladies room. Also until about ten years ago there was no such thing as bathroom laws. Ok I am done ranting but I am really tired of people writing off attitudes that are harming and doing damage to not just trans people, but intersexed people and little kids who hateful adults decide dont look feminine enough to us the bathroom because they cut their hair like a pop singer. 8 years ago I had a long talk with a lesbian friend who had avoided public restrooms for 2 years because she was always harassed. And this hatemongering is that. As a Jew I may not be as into the conversation on the antisemitism denial but you bet that that is harmful. It also probably wouldn't factor as much if not for the fact this is about someone who is not only promoting hateful attitudes that affect every transperson AND also intersex people AND little girls and boys and adults who are deemed not feminine or masculine enough to be treated like the gender they are. The question everyone needs to ask themselves is would you call it "Just an opinion" if the 'opinions' were antigay or racist? Because these 'opinions' do just as much harm. edit: I am also going to cut and paste this statement into my Big Finish and Diversity thread. It's primarily a positive thread but if people want to go into detail on this and other issues on my thread feel free!
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Post by Digi on Jul 25, 2019 18:38:39 GMT
NEW THREAD STARTS HERE
Hello all, this is the new thread created from posts split off from the Monthly Range thread. You're all more than welcome to continue discussing the topic here. As always with sensitive subjects, please remember to be civil to one another and remember that these are deeply-held and -felt beliefs for many people, so 'do unto others' and all that good stuff. Basically, just remember to be kind.
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Post by Digi on Jul 25, 2019 18:40:09 GMT
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Post by barnabaslives on Jul 25, 2019 19:58:04 GMT
If everyone will please pardon my ignorance - I like to think my ignorance is what sometimes comes with just trying to mind my own business and hopefully not going out of my way to make other people miserable, such as my not knowing sometimes when certain words have begun to be considered slurs - but I'm wondering how to respond to this.
Maybe I don't have an excuse for ignorance, because in a way I think maybe it is my business. People expressing hurtful views affects the world I live in whether I happen to be a specific target of a particular remark or not, and I guess I'm of the opinion that when people are willing to harbor prejudice, that prejudice may not be content for long to confine itself to any particular group of targets. (As a disabled person, I've often been the victim of prejudice, although further details don't need to be part of the present discussion).
I'm still very much at a loss to explain some of the people involved with Doctor Who who are making hurtful remarks or expressing hurtful opinions. I understand that politicians are often all too willing to engage in the disgusting practice of making capital out of intolerance and xenophobia, but it still eludes me what people in entertainment hope to gain with such indulgences. Is there really any chance that engaging in such behavior broadens anyone's fanbase or increases their opportunities for employment?
I looked at some of the Twitter posts and am saddened to see the idea of intolerance keep getting turned around to say that people are being intolerant for objecting to expressions of hateful or harmful views and attitudes. It's saddening to see how often people seem to still be in need of reminding that free speech does not mean the right to say anything to anyone, anytime or anywhere. I was also saddened by the responses from Dreyfus that I saw, I don't think it would hurt him to apologize if he's very understandably offended anyone, instead of apparently trying to act justified, or trivializing the opinions of people who've been offended.
Anyway, I'm wondering what might be done to help discourage such behavior. I'm not sure I want to hold Big Finish responsible for the opinions or attitudes of people they employ, but I'm not sure if it's enough to simply speak up and say that personally I find such things unacceptable. I tend think that if the people in question were adverse to negative feedback, they probably wouldn't be airing such views in the first place.
I'd be just as happy to take a pass on The Psychic Circus if I thought it would help, but it will probably come as part of a subscription and I'm not quite sure what to do about that. I'm not sure if I should want to avoid purchasing it as a way of discouraging people from making hurtful remarks, so much as that I just tend to quickly lose interest if I have to think that while someone is providing me with happiness though Doctor Who, they're off somewhere actively making other people unhappy, and many of those other people being fans themselves. At least for me, I think the expression "sour taste" really does hold true here.
On that account I am simply just not so keen to revisit Gareth Roberts' work after some of the remarks he's made, and to be perfectly honest I wasn't that impressed with his contributions in the first place, and the same goes for Dreyfuss' portrayal of The Master (nor was I really that keen to revisit The Psychic Circus). Whether or not I'm one of their targets personally, the unfortunate remarks in question really do have a way of taking a lot of enjoyment out of work that such people were involved in, which is worse when I wasn't getting that much enjoyment to begin with.
I hope I haven't offended anyone myself with this, but I wanted to try to offer at least this much in hope of solidarity. I would be happy to hear suggestions, though, of how to help discourage such harmful remarks from taking place.
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Post by frisby78 on Jul 25, 2019 20:38:24 GMT
Anti semetism in the Labour Party is a nebulous thing. A lot of prominent people have said its rife while a lot of prominent people in the Jewish community have said its utter nonsense. You also have to take into account how much of the press reports are true. Until we know the facts we don't know the facts. So Jury and Reddington are, arguably, expressing an opinion which they hope is true. On the other hand, we know for a fact what Dreyfuss and Roberts have said. They have admitted to it. There opinions are both abhorrent and dangerous. In my opinion they should not work for BF again. I honestly think the Dreyfuss Master will be quickly forgot about.
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Post by constonks on Jul 25, 2019 20:58:27 GMT
I wonder if that "unreleased"/"unconfirmed" Baker/Dreyfus story will ever see the light of day or if it will miraculously become a Baker/Beevers story in post-production.
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Post by frisby78 on Jul 25, 2019 21:09:40 GMT
You also have to think that I imagine that there are a few regulars who would flatly refuse to work with him now that it's all out there.
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Post by cwm on Jul 25, 2019 21:23:05 GMT
I wonder if that "unreleased"/"unconfirmed" Baker/Dreyfus story will ever see the light of day or if it will miraculously become a Baker/Beevers story in post-production. My suspicion is that it will be released, but will be very low-key with publicity not mentioning it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2019 21:37:27 GMT
If everyone will please pardon my ignorance - I like to think my ignorance is what sometimes comes with just trying to mind my own business and hopefully not going out of my way to make other people miserable, such as my not knowing sometimes when certain words have begun to be considered slurs - but I'm wondering how to respond to this. Maybe I don't have an excuse for ignorance, because in a way I think maybe it is my business. People expressing hurtful views affects the world I live in whether I happen to be a specific target of a particular remark or not, and I guess I'm of the opinion that when people are willing to harbor prejudice, that prejudice may not be content for long to confine itself to any particular group of targets. (As a disabled person, I've often been the victim of prejudice, although further details don't need to be part of the present discussion). I'm still very much at a loss to explain some of the people involved with Doctor Who who are making hurtful remarks or expressing hurtful opinions. I understand that politicians are often all too willing to engage in the disgusting practice of making capital out of intolerance and xenophobia, but it still eludes me what people in entertainment hope to gain with such indulgences. Is there really any chance that engaging in such behavior broadens anyone's fanbase or increases their opportunities for employment? I looked at some of the Twitter posts and am saddened to see the idea of intolerance keep getting turned around to say that people are being intolerant for objecting to expressions of hateful or harmful views and attitudes. It's saddening to see how often people seem to still be in need of reminding that free speech does not mean the right to say anything to anyone, anytime or anywhere. I was also saddened by the responses from Dreyfus that I saw, I don't think it would hurt him to apologize if he's very understandably offended anyone, instead of apparently trying to act justified, or trivializing the opinions of people who've been offended. Anyway, I'm wondering what might be done to help discourage such behavior. I'm not sure I want to hold Big Finish responsible for the opinions or attitudes of people they employ, but I'm not sure if it's enough to simply speak up and say that personally I find such things unacceptable. I tend think that if the people in question were adverse to negative feedback, they probably wouldn't be airing such views in the first place.
I'd be just as happy to take a pass on The Psychic Circus if I thought it would help, but it will probably come as part of a subscription and I'm not quite sure what to do about that. I'm not sure if I should want to avoid purchasing it as a way of discouraging people from making hurtful remarks, so much as that I just tend to quickly lose interest if I have to think that while someone is providing me with happiness though Doctor Who, they're off somewhere actively making other people unhappy, and many of those other people being fans themselves. At least for me, I think the expression "sour taste" really does hold true here. On that account I am simply just not so keen to revisit Gareth Roberts' work after some of the remarks he's made, and to be perfectly honest I wasn't that impressed with his contributions in the first place, and the same goes for Dreyfuss' portrayal of The Master (nor was I really that keen to revisit The Psychic Circus). Whether or not I'm one of their targets personally, the unfortunate remarks in question really do have a way of taking a lot of enjoyment out of work that such people were involved in, which is worse when I wasn't getting that much enjoyment to begin with. I hope I haven't offended anyone myself with this, but I wanted to try to offer at least this much in hope of solidarity. I would be happy to hear suggestions, though, of how to help discourage such harmful remarks from taking place. Honestly, talking about it helps. In situations like these, it's important for those who are unaware to be willing to learn and those who are aware to be willing to teach. Voicing disapproval of an abhorrent viewpoint tends to get the "You gonna go cry to mommy?" response from detractors. It sounds silly, I know, and it does get dressed up in other things, but ultimately, it's a response analogous to small kids trying to dissuade you from taking the action higher/further. The trick, more often than not, when putting your opinion out there is finding a sympathetic (or an evenhanded) ear and remembering that moderates do exist. Find someone who is willing to discuss the argument with the same level of respect that you give it. If they're not prepared to listen, there's no point. Edit: In terms Big Finish... If they're like any other organisation, they employ people primarily based on their professional merit rather than their private lives. What's on their CV, rather than their Twitter feed. Ideally, they'd look at both, but other responsibilities of production would get in the way. With any company, I'd find their reaction to the news -- both as an organisation and through production heads -- and make an assessment from there. Typically, organisations cannot address particular instances due to concerns with liable, however they can issue a general statement on the subject that addresses the concern indirectly. I've heard it call the CYA policy in some places: "covering your own 'apple'." They can't act based on an absence of information, but the fact that you've voiced your discomfort with it -- as a member of their consumer base -- helps to contribute evidence to their response. It can also assist other people who feel similarly uncomfortable to speak up as well.
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Post by subconiandreamer on Jul 25, 2019 21:39:21 GMT
This "statement" is a load of waffling nonsense that fails to directly address anything at all. I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they were just putting out work that had been recorded ages ago (as nice as it would be in principle, I don't actually expect a company to throw stuff out like that), but this Seventh Doctor story with Dreyfus was only recorded a few months ago according to their site. I'm officially done buying Big Finish at this point. Into the bin with the lot of them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2019 21:54:15 GMT
Big Finish have posted a statement on diversity and equality. While it doesn't directly mention any names or releases, it is undoubtedly related to the flurry of replies to the tweet announcing The Psychic Circus. This "statement" is a load of waffling nonsense that fails to directly address anything at all. ... and typically Big Finish, doesn't actually get on top of the issue or put out any fires ... while the tweets from some angry customers continue to pile up (those that don't get deleted that is) and The Psychic Circus - which has a lot of promise as a story - now becomes a controversial release.
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Post by frisby78 on Jul 25, 2019 22:07:08 GMT
This "statement" is a load of waffling nonsense that fails to directly address anything at all. I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they were just putting out work that had been recorded ages ago (as nice as it would be in principle, I don't actually expect a company to throw stuff out like that), but this Seventh Doctor story with Dreyfus was only recorded a few months ago according to their site. I'm officially done buying Big Finish at this point. Into the bin with the lot of them. In there defense, he may have been contracted for it for a while. Cancelling that could have been a legal mess BF were unwilling to get into.
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Post by frisby78 on Jul 25, 2019 22:08:09 GMT
This "statement" is a load of waffling nonsense that fails to directly address anything at all. ... and typically Big Finish, doesn't actually get on top of the issue or put out any fires ... while the tweets from some angry customers continue to pile up (those that don't get deleted that is) and The Psychic Circus - which has a lot of promise as a story - now becomes a controversial release. As a matter of interest would you publicly say you wouldn't work with him again?
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Post by sherlock on Jul 25, 2019 22:11:16 GMT
This "statement" is a load of waffling nonsense that fails to directly address anything at all. I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they were just putting out work that had been recorded ages ago (as nice as it would be in principle, I don't actually expect a company to throw stuff out like that), but this Seventh Doctor story with Dreyfus was only recorded a few months ago according to their site. I'm officially done buying Big Finish at this point. Into the bin with the lot of them. In there defense, he may have been contracted for it for a while. Cancelling that could have been a legal mess BF were unwilling to get into. Indeed Dreyfus has already raised the possibility of legal action on his twitter account today, so if BF were to remove him they would almost definitely face legal retaliation from him. Honestly this situation is a stain on Big Finish, I will be steering clear of any release featuring Dreyfus. (Though honestly wasn’t particulary interested in his incarnation of the Master anyway).
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Post by frisby78 on Jul 25, 2019 22:14:39 GMT
In there defense, he may have been contracted for it for a while. Cancelling that could have been a legal mess BF were unwilling to get into. Indeed Dreyfus has already raised the possibility of legal action on his twitter account today, so if BF were to remove him they would almost definitely face legal retaliation from him. Honestly this situation is a stain on Big Finish, I will be steering clear of any release featuring Dreyfus. (Though honestly wasn’t particulary interested in his incarnation of the Master anyway). You have to wonder that if BF claimed he had brought their product into disrepute or some such would he have a legal leg to stand on. I suppose that BF could and probably will just not hire him if and when any existing contracts are up.
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