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Post by number13 on Aug 6, 2019 11:12:12 GMT
Some of my oldest (music) CDs ended up with "disc rot" and became unplayable. And that's a shame because early CDs had much better dynamic range than the crap they put out now, and "remasters" of old titles suffer from this. Anyway, having early discs fail, kind of put the claim of "forever digital" to rest for me. But with BF I've been download from my start. I did buy many on CD because that was the only way to get them.... but I think all of them except early Benny and Sapphire and Steel later acquired download versions. Disc rot, eh? I didn’t know that was possible. But then again, I haven’t tried to play my oldest CDs any time recently, as I always rip the music to my computer. I remember hearing in the 80s that it was thought some early CDs had a problem where the air could eventually get at the aluminium layer and tarnish it. 'Eventually' meant years or even decades apparently, so I was left wondering if any of my collection would be affected.
35 years on, my oldest CDs are all still shiny and play just fine, so I'm guessing it wasn't a general problem.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2019 11:20:30 GMT
Disc rot, eh? I didn’t know that was possible. But then again, I haven’t tried to play my oldest CDs any time recently, as I always rip the music to my computer. I remember hearing in the 80s that it was thought some early CDs had a problem where the air could eventually get at the aluminium layer and tarnish it. 'Eventually' meant years or even decades apparently, so I was left wondering if any of my collection would be affected.
35 years on, my oldest CDs are all still shiny and play just fine, so I'm guessing it wasn't a general problem.
A lot of Island CDs turned gold, but even they seem to still play OK from my experience. What IS a real issue with Disc Rot though is Laserdisc, a lot of them really did just stop working after a few decades. There is still a very niche but very devoted fandom for laserdisc and rot is a big problem for diehards.
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Post by Ela on Aug 6, 2019 15:50:54 GMT
Interesting, Davy. Didn’t know that.
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Post by stcoop on Aug 12, 2019 10:17:24 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2019 10:45:10 GMT
Maybe. They said vinyl LP's were gone years ago and look at the clamour for the 'Limited Edition' vinyl releases of Big Finish stories in 2019. So I think there will always be some physical releases for collectors.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Aug 12, 2019 10:50:52 GMT
Maybe. They said vinyl LP's were gone years ago and look at the clamour for the 'Limited Edition' vinyl releases of Big Finish stories in 2019. So I think there will always be some physical releases for collectors. BF are committed to at least some CD production up to 2023 (4DA series 12 up for pre-order on CD).
Plus, whilst the article is undoubtedly true in terms of the general public and general release CDs/DVDs, BF are a niche product sold to a niche in the market. I think they will continue to buck the trend for a while yet, but not forever.
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Aug 12, 2019 10:54:11 GMT
I just can't wrap my head around "renting" music so to speak from online digital.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2019 11:19:10 GMT
Maybe. They said vinyl LP's were gone years ago and look at the clamour for the 'Limited Edition' vinyl releases of Big Finish stories in 2019. So I think there will always be some physical releases for collectors. An increasingly diminishing market though as per the article. Yes, we like our physical media but what does it expose BF to? -Manufacturing costs, shipping costs to get the stock to the warehouse, pain in the arse international shipping that cost BF money for years (their fault), having to replace lost or damaged goods thus writing off stock and storage costs for unused stock that can lie for years. If they get people digital only all of those costs disappear entirely. I think it's easily missed that BF would surely rather everyone was digital, it's a much easier model for them as a business to sustain. I wouldn't be surprised to see more things like the BF originals range which is both high end pricing and download only. There would always be some wanting hard copies but unless there was enough to justify making them...they'd be disappointed, as those asking for ATA Girl are now. BF cater to, largely, an older demographic so I think they'll be able to sustain physical media longer than most but in an age where OAPs can use smartphones, Netflix and DVDrs, I think even an old fashioned fanbase won't hold the tide back for all that long looking beyond the next few years or so.
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Post by captainpugwash on Aug 12, 2019 12:50:10 GMT
Maybe. They said vinyl LP's were gone years ago and look at the clamour for the 'Limited Edition' vinyl releases of Big Finish stories in 2019. So I think there will always be some physical releases for collectors. An increasingly diminishing market though as per the article. Yes, we like our physical media but what does it expose BF to? -Manufacturing costs, shipping costs to get the stock to the warehouse, pain in the arse international shipping that cost BF money for years (their fault), having to replace lost or damaged goods thus writing off stock and storage costs for unused stock that can lie for years. If they get people digital only all of those costs disappear entirely. I think it's easily missed that BF would surely rather everyone was digital, it's a much easier model for them as a business to sustain. I wouldn't be surprised to see more things like the BF originals range which is both high end pricing and download only. There would always be some wanting hard copies but unless there was enough to justify making them...they'd be disappointed, as those asking for ATA Girl are now. BF cater to, largely, an older demographic so I think they'll be able to sustain physical media longer than most but in an age where OAPs can use smartphones, Netflix and DVDrs, I think even an old fashioned fanbase won't hold the tide back for all that long looking beyond the next few years or so. Interesting comment. I wonder though how many consumers of BF buy direct from BF? I bet the percentage of ones who purchase from other shops/websites is higher than you imagine. And I’m one of them. Haven’t bought physical from BF in years as their pre order prices can be beaten by other places. For example I pre ordered Legacy of Time from a high street retailer for £39. Now I must admit i don’t know much about buying downloads ( as I don’t as a rule ) but how many other places can you go to, to purchase a BF download? Or can you only purchase a download from BF website? So can I go to amazon and purchase Legacy of Time download? If BF do go down download only, what happens to the consumers who don’t buy from BF? Where do they go?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2019 12:57:58 GMT
An increasingly diminishing market though as per the article. Yes, we like our physical media but what does it expose BF to? -Manufacturing costs, shipping costs to get the stock to the warehouse, pain in the arse international shipping that cost BF money for years (their fault), having to replace lost or damaged goods thus writing off stock and storage costs for unused stock that can lie for years. If they get people digital only all of those costs disappear entirely. I think it's easily missed that BF would surely rather everyone was digital, it's a much easier model for them as a business to sustain. I wouldn't be surprised to see more things like the BF originals range which is both high end pricing and download only. There would always be some wanting hard copies but unless there was enough to justify making them...they'd be disappointed, as those asking for ATA Girl are now. BF cater to, largely, an older demographic so I think they'll be able to sustain physical media longer than most but in an age where OAPs can use smartphones, Netflix and DVDrs, I think even an old fashioned fanbase won't hold the tide back for all that long looking beyond the next few years or so. Interesting comment. I wonder though how many consumers of BF buy direct from BF? I bet the percentage of ones who purchase from other shops/websites is higher than you imagine. And I’m one of them. Haven’t bought physical from BF in years as their pre order prices can be beaten by other places. For example I pre ordered Legacy of Time from a high street retailer for £39. Now I must admit i don’t know much about buying downloads ( as I don’t as a rule ) but how many other places can you go to, to purchase a BF download? Or can you only purchase a download from BF website? So can I go to amazon and purchase Legacy of Time download? If BF do go down download only, what happens to the consumers who don’t buy from BF? Where do they go? They'd buy direct as people do from Audible or Bafflegab, I guess. I mean they would already have to come to BF direct for things like the Doctor Who Short Trips range. Again to add why BF would benefit from people being dowload, in your example Amazon or Forbidden Planet or the Book Depository get their cut so any digital sales get to BF direct without third parties taking a slice. While I too prefer physical media I can see why Jason would rather sell digitally.
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Post by shallacatop on Aug 12, 2019 13:32:29 GMT
Maybe. They said vinyl LP's were gone years ago and look at the clamour for the 'Limited Edition' vinyl releases of Big Finish stories in 2019. So I think there will always be some physical releases for collectors. I think the demand for the vinyls is created purely because of their limited nature. Up the numbers too much and I think that will alter the demand considerably.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,811
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Post by lidar2 on Aug 12, 2019 13:55:06 GMT
An increasingly diminishing market though as per the article. Yes, we like our physical media but what does it expose BF to? -Manufacturing costs, shipping costs to get the stock to the warehouse, pain in the arse international shipping that cost BF money for years (their fault), having to replace lost or damaged goods thus writing off stock and storage costs for unused stock that can lie for years. If they get people digital only all of those costs disappear entirely. I think it's easily missed that BF would surely rather everyone was digital, it's a much easier model for them as a business to sustain. I wouldn't be surprised to see more things like the BF originals range which is both high end pricing and download only. There would always be some wanting hard copies but unless there was enough to justify making them...they'd be disappointed, as those asking for ATA Girl are now. BF cater to, largely, an older demographic so I think they'll be able to sustain physical media longer than most but in an age where OAPs can use smartphones, Netflix and DVDrs, I think even an old fashioned fanbase won't hold the tide back for all that long looking beyond the next few years or so. Interesting comment. I wonder though how many consumers of BF buy direct from BF? I bet the percentage of ones who purchase from other shops/websites is higher than you imagine. And I’m one of them. Haven’t bought physical from BF in years as their pre order prices can be beaten by other places. For example I pre ordered Legacy of Time from a high street retailer for £39. Now I must admit i don’t know much about buying downloads ( as I don’t as a rule ) but how many other places can you go to, to purchase a BF download? Or can you only purchase a download from BF website? So can I go to amazon and purchase Legacy of Time download? If BF do go down download only, what happens to the consumers who don’t buy from BF? Where do they go? I am totally inventing the numbers below, but it is to make a point
How much of the £39 you paid goes to BF? Say 10% - £3.90
How much of the £40 a downloader paid to buy direct from BF goes to BF? Say 30% - £12
So in terms of pounds, shilling and pence 1 downloader buying direct from BF could be worth as much to them as 3 physical CD buyers buying from 3rd parties. So if they went DL only and only a third of people like you switched over to DL they would break even. If half switched to DL they are better off. And this is before you allow for cost savings of no physical product.
As I said in my opening line, the figures are complete guesswork on my part, and if someone wants to challenge them, they will get no argument back. However I suspect the basic point will still stand regardless of what the actual figures are - BF could probably afford to lose a few customers - not too many, but a few - and still be better off if they went DL only. These are the sorts of judgement calls that JHE gets paid the big bucks for.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2019 15:49:27 GMT
Came across this article today, it seemed apt to throw it up here...
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Post by tuigirl on Aug 12, 2019 19:12:40 GMT
Interesting comment. I wonder though how many consumers of BF buy direct from BF? I bet the percentage of ones who purchase from other shops/websites is higher than you imagine. And I’m one of them. Haven’t bought physical from BF in years as their pre order prices can be beaten by other places. For example I pre ordered Legacy of Time from a high street retailer for £39. Now I must admit i don’t know much about buying downloads ( as I don’t as a rule ) but how many other places can you go to, to purchase a BF download? Or can you only purchase a download from BF website? So can I go to amazon and purchase Legacy of Time download? If BF do go down download only, what happens to the consumers who don’t buy from BF? Where do they go? I am totally inventing the numbers below, but it is to make a point
How much of the £39 you paid goes to BF? Say 10% - £3.90
How much of the £40 a downloader paid to buy direct from BF goes to BF? Say 30% - £12
So in terms of pounds, shilling and pence 1 downloader buying direct from BF could be worth as much to them as 3 physical CD buyers buying from 3rd parties. So if they went DL only and only a third of people like you switched over to DL they would break even. If half switched to DL they are better off. And this is before you allow for cost savings of no physical product.
As I said in my opening line, the figures are complete guesswork on my part, and if someone wants to challenge them, they will get no argument back. However I suspect the basic point will still stand regardless of what the actual figures are - BF could probably afford to lose a few customers - not too many, but a few - and still be better off if they went DL only. These are the sorts of judgement calls that JHE gets paid the big bucks for.
I always admire people with more business sense than me... who can even do all these guesses.
Just to add to the discussion- I just did a weird thing, I saw that the first Dark Eyes was going for 20 Euroes on German Amazon, so I caved in. Yes, I own all these sets as downloads. And I had sworn that I would stop accumulating stuff and to save money and space, stay purely digital. But I am a hoarder and collector at heart. And this one has a special place in my heart since it started my BF addiction. Sentimental value. I might even get it signed some day by someone involved (to make it even more of a collectors item).
No idea how much BF did get out of that sale from me... so I once bought it as download, but how much did the seller on Amazon pay for it originally?
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Post by number13 on Aug 14, 2019 13:17:15 GMT
Maybe. They said vinyl LP's were gone years ago and look at the clamour for the 'Limited Edition' vinyl releases of Big Finish stories in 2019. So I think there will always be some physical releases for collectors. An increasingly diminishing market though as per the article. Yes, we like our physical media but what does it expose BF to? -Manufacturing costs, shipping costs to get the stock to the warehouse, pain in the arse international shipping that cost BF money for years (their fault), having to replace lost or damaged goods thus writing off stock and storage costs for unused stock that can lie for years. If they get people digital only all of those costs disappear entirely. I think it's easily missed that BF would surely rather everyone was digital, it's a much easier model for them as a business to sustain. I wouldn't be surprised to see more things like the BF originals range which is both high end pricing and download only. There would always be some wanting hard copies but unless there was enough to justify making them...they'd be disappointed, as those asking for ATA Girl are now. BF cater to, largely, an older demographic so I think they'll be able to sustain physical media longer than most but in an age where OAPs can use smartphones, Netflix and DVDrs, I think even an old fashioned fanbase won't hold the tide back for all that long looking beyond the next few years or so. Interesting discussion everyone (again ) and I don't disagree with any of your points about CD/DL from the business viewpoint Davy - but I did wonder about the 'older demographic' and whether the fanbase is really 'old-fashioned'?
It's relative of course and I don't know how representative this forum is of BF's wider customer base, but I'm mid-50s and I get the strong impression that only a handful of DU members are my age or older. And it's new Who material that really puts the strain on BF's server, by and large (Legacy was the spectacular exception to the 'rule'!) which would imply their customer base is mostly younger, primarily new series fans (who of course have the wisdom to discover and enjoy classic Who too, just as I do new Who.)
While 'older' will certainly be true for some fans, I would guess that of all people, 'Doctor Who' fans are some of the least likely to be 'old fashioned' - what is Time to fans of the Time Lord? Surely people whose imaginations have spent decades ranging across all of Space and Time are likely to be among the most accepting of new ideas and new 'stuff'? (Yes, I know the great Jodie row etc., but in the online world, volume is often a measure of sound, not size!)
So I love the speed and convenience of streaming and DLs - but I still love my collections too! Many Who fans are instinctive collectors, so maybe that CD buying demographic is going to be around for a long, long time. Getting the right business model to make CDs viable is the question, but I'm sure it can be done.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Aug 14, 2019 13:22:55 GMT
An increasingly diminishing market though as per the article. Yes, we like our physical media but what does it expose BF to? -Manufacturing costs, shipping costs to get the stock to the warehouse, pain in the arse international shipping that cost BF money for years (their fault), having to replace lost or damaged goods thus writing off stock and storage costs for unused stock that can lie for years. If they get people digital only all of those costs disappear entirely. I think it's easily missed that BF would surely rather everyone was digital, it's a much easier model for them as a business to sustain. I wouldn't be surprised to see more things like the BF originals range which is both high end pricing and download only. There would always be some wanting hard copies but unless there was enough to justify making them...they'd be disappointed, as those asking for ATA Girl are now. BF cater to, largely, an older demographic so I think they'll be able to sustain physical media longer than most but in an age where OAPs can use smartphones, Netflix and DVDrs, I think even an old fashioned fanbase won't hold the tide back for all that long looking beyond the next few years or so.
While 'older' will certainly be true for some fans, I would guess that of all people, 'Doctor Who' fans are some of the least likely to be 'old fashioned' - what is Time to fans of the Time Lord? Surely people whose imaginations have spent decades ranging across all of Space and Time are likely to be among the most accepting of new ideas and new 'stuff'?
You would think so, wouldn't you? And yet ...
Well, let's just say my wife and children don't think too much of my fashion sense
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Post by number13 on Aug 14, 2019 13:35:39 GMT
While 'older' will certainly be true for some fans, I would guess that of all people, 'Doctor Who' fans are some of the least likely to be 'old fashioned' - what is Time to fans of the Time Lord? Surely people whose imaginations have spent decades ranging across all of Space and Time are likely to be among the most accepting of new ideas and new 'stuff'?
You would think so, wouldn't you? And yet ...
Well, let's just say my wife and children don't think too much of my fashion sense
I grew up in the 70s, when the words 'fashion' and 'sense' never belonged in the same sentence, so imo being 'trendy' in matters of dress can be a big mistake whatever your age or the age you live in!
With all of Space and Time to choose their clothes from, most Doctors look most at home in early 20thC UK. So I follow their example in that I define my clothes, not the reverse.
And now I can be right on trend and say I'm rejecting the 'throwaway' fashion culture to help save the planet.
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ljwilson
Chancellery Guard
It's tangerine....not orange
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Post by ljwilson on Aug 14, 2019 19:46:41 GMT
Came across this article today, it seemed apt to throw it up here...
Now this is interesting...I have two 'living rooms' in my house (generically called Front Rooms up north), the smaller one being a bit of a snug with floor to ceiling shelves each side of the chimney brest; one full of books, the other DVDs, CDs and of course BF stuff. The snug is going. If the bank say yes the whole of the back of the house is being knocked out to create a kitchen/dining/chill space, which of course will be great. But, I can almost see the glint in my lovely wife's eyes which says 'and you are going to have to do something about all those DVDs and CDs you never watch or listen to!' I'd like to keep them...but do I need to? Time will tell I suppose...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2019 21:51:47 GMT
An increasingly diminishing market though as per the article. Yes, we like our physical media but what does it expose BF to? -Manufacturing costs, shipping costs to get the stock to the warehouse, pain in the arse international shipping that cost BF money for years (their fault), having to replace lost or damaged goods thus writing off stock and storage costs for unused stock that can lie for years. If they get people digital only all of those costs disappear entirely. I think it's easily missed that BF would surely rather everyone was digital, it's a much easier model for them as a business to sustain. I wouldn't be surprised to see more things like the BF originals range which is both high end pricing and download only. There would always be some wanting hard copies but unless there was enough to justify making them...they'd be disappointed, as those asking for ATA Girl are now. BF cater to, largely, an older demographic so I think they'll be able to sustain physical media longer than most but in an age where OAPs can use smartphones, Netflix and DVDrs, I think even an old fashioned fanbase won't hold the tide back for all that long looking beyond the next few years or so. Interesting discussion everyone (again ) and I don't disagree with any of your points about CD/DL from the business viewpoint Davy - but I did wonder about the 'older demographic' and whether the fanbase is really 'old-fashioned'?
It's relative of course and I don't know how representative this forum is of BF's wider customer base, but I'm mid-50s and I get the strong impression that only a handful of DU members are my age or older. And it's new Who material that really puts the strain on BF's server, by and large (Legacy was the spectacular exception to the 'rule'!) which would imply their customer base is mostly younger, primarily new series fans (who of course have the wisdom to discover and enjoy classic Who too, just as I do new Who.)
While 'older' will certainly be true for some fans, I would guess that of all people, 'Doctor Who' fans are some of the least likely to be 'old fashioned' - what is Time to fans of the Time Lord? Surely people whose imaginations have spent decades ranging across all of Space and Time are likely to be among the most accepting of new ideas and new 'stuff'? (Yes, I know the great Jodie row etc., but in the online world, volume is often a measure of sound, not size!)
So I love the speed and convenience of streaming and DLs - but I still love my collections too! Many Who fans are instinctive collectors, so maybe that CD buying demographic is going to be around for a long, long time. Getting the right business model to make CDs viable is the question, but I'm sure it can be done.
When I say "older", forgive me, I'm talking in marketing and polling terms where anyone not in the lucrative 18-35 market is "older" - so I'm certainly not saying BF's fanbase are pushing 60 but I do think I'd disagree that they're mostly younger new series fans. Yeah, the forum is a small sample but a sample nonetheless - but we also have Twitter and Facebook to gauge an average BF-er (I know you don't bother with them) and the fans there also tend to skew "older" (by the over 35 metric again). We also have BF days to look at and that too skews older. Are there lots of BF fans under 36? Yep, I'm one (by only 2 years now....gulp!) but I think you only have to look at what licences BF buy to see what age they're after. Space 1999? Adam Adamant? The Prisoner? They're not targeting the kids by and large. IF I had to guess, based on being a fan and interacting with many others for two decades now I'd say your average BF fan is a white male in his 40s. It would be interesting to see what others think the average BFer "is" though. Might be an interesting thread for one of Nucleus' friday night deep threads! We only have the anecdotal evidence cited above though - forums, social media and live events along with the age of the licences BF attain. That certainly all leads me to my conclusion but ultimately we've got zero idea what the "typical" BF customer is and it's all guess work. For all we know there's a massive silent majority of 8 year old girls buying in their legions but just not talking about it! I'm not sure I'd quite buy that being Who fans makes people open to new things, again I've just seen too many dummies being spat out over a million different things that are "not what Doctor Who is!" for far too many years to really believe that the show being broad-minded influences it's fans. Absolutely the complainers make the most noise but even just looking at high profile members on here over Jodie's casting, Tin Dog wasn't going to watch again and Timelord put his fist through his shed door. That was before she'd even started work! Both quickly changed their minds - which is great - but were initially resistant. And I think that's kinda the point about the CD vs. Digital issue - some people were resistant...until they weren't any more. Maybe They ran out of shelf room due to BF's massively increased output (I remember it used to cost me less than 30 quid a month, now I can't remember the last month it didn't cost about 100! ), international shipping made some overseas customers go digital who would normally like CDs, cost, certain ranges being DL only meaning you HAVE to be digital if you want it all anyway (Short Trips, Originals).....loads of factors are pushing people digitally. And again I think there's a lot of fans who all things being equal would still LIKE to be CD buyers but they just can't. I hope you're right about the CD buying demographic being around for a long time but I'm not quite as optimistic they will be there in sufficient numbers long term. Like I said elsewhere BF also save a lot of money for people ditching CDs, so I don't think it's something Jason will actively be working on. It'd be much easier to ease physical customers to digital than to accommodate CD buyers in the face of changing and diminishing markets. Some will be left behind but if the business is more viable long term....well, that's a sad side effect. There are already people missing out on the digital only ranges. I think they'll be missing out on a lot more long term (post 2023-ish when BF's current CD commitments end. We'll see more and more ranges going into warehouse sales quicker, or being limited editions like Class was. Of course there'll always be a market but as you say, is it a viable one? Only time and numbers (that we won't be privvy too!) will tell but we'll be able to infer from the releases and the schedules in a few years just where BF stand on hard copies. Streaming is also something I think a lot of people are increasingly expecting of their entertainment too, and that may be something for the future too. Spotify royalties are pathetic and I know when asked about it before Nick said a potential BF streaming service would be something he thought was a good idea, maybe with releases over 12 months old, but that the BBC might not like it. It's a kinda interesting subject because it's massively speculative and none of us can really know how right we are - or wrong - for a few years at least. Let's bookmark it and have a good "I told ya so!" in 2025, or so.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Aug 14, 2019 22:57:24 GMT
Yeah, I don’t know how anyone outside of Big Finish really knows how old, or young, their customer base really is.
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