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Post by Whovitt on Aug 9, 2019 7:18:27 GMT
I've seen this mentioned here and there on the forum, so I thought I'd ask the question where everyone can find it - are Big Finish making too many cross-over stories? There was a while there where the spin-offs were allowed to develop on their own: Counter-Measures, Jago & Litefoot, even UNIT - The New Series back in its early days. Now though, everything seems to be linked to something else. For example:
UNIT: Autons/Silence/Silurians & Sea Devils/a Dalek/Sontarans/Cybermen/The Master/Wirrn/Chin Lee/the Keller Machine/River Song The Diary of River Song: five different Doctors/four different Masters/events set during pre-existing Doctor Who stories The War Master: Ood/the Eighth Doctor The New Counter-Measures: The Great Intelligence/Daleks/Movellans Lady Christina: Sylvia Noble/Sam and Jacqui from UNIT/Sontaran/Slitheen Gallifrey and the Eighth Doctor have moved into the Time War Heck, even Class had to include a Dalek and Ace
I could go on. It's almost as if everything needs to have more than one link to the main series for it to be viable. I'd love another series like UNIT: Shutdown. I liked it a lot at the time, but I appreciate it even more now because of it's originality. Sequels, prequels, and tie-ins all have their place, but I think it would be nice to get a few more original ideas/monsters/enemies in the spin-offs. What do others think? Is the market starting to get a bit too oversaturated with these cross-overs?
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ljwilson
Chancellery Guard
It's tangerine....not orange
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Post by ljwilson on Aug 9, 2019 9:00:03 GMT
I think it is mainly due to marketing; people are so obsessed with Doctor Who (and there is nothing wrong with that) that they often stick to Who and ignore the spin-offs and other ranges that are, at times, much better than Who.
Bung the two together to entice the Who-only punters to buy them. Voila!
I should imagine something similar to my last sentence was the flip chart conclusion after a gruelling brain bath session at Big Finish Towers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2019 9:11:31 GMT
I've seen this mentioned here and there on the forum, so I thought I'd ask the question where everyone can find it - are Big Finish making too many cross-over stories? There was a while there where the spin-offs were allowed to develop on their own: Counter-Measures, Jago & Litefoot, even UNIT - The New Series back in its early days. Now though, everything seems to be linked to something else. For example: UNIT: Autons/Silence/Silurians & Sea Devils/a Dalek/Sontarans/Cybermen/The Master/Wirrn/Chin Lee/the Keller Machine/River Song The Diary of River Song: five different Doctors/four different Masters/events set during pre-existing Doctor Who stories The War Master: Ood/the Eighth Doctor The New Counter-Measures: The Great Intelligence/Daleks/Movellans Lady Christina: Sylvia Noble/Sam and Jacqui from UNIT/Sontaran/Slitheen Gallifrey and the Eighth Doctor have moved into the Time War Heck, even Class had to include a Dalek and Ace I could go on. It's almost as if everything needs to have more than one link to the main series for it to be viable. I'd love another series like UNIT: Shutdown. I liked it a lot at the time, but I appreciate it even more now because of it's originality. Sequels, prequels, and tie-ins all have their place, but I think it would be nice to get a few more original ideas/monsters/enemies in the spin-offs. What do others think? Is the market starting to get a bit too oversaturated with these cross-overs? My personal opinion is that yes it is. Or, to put it another way, these cross-overs are not to my tastes. But people clearly enjoy them. The Big Finish Facebook group is full of 'wouldn't it be great if Donna met The Fourth Doctor?', 'River Song should meet The Voord' (these are examples) comments. If people want that to happen, I can't think why it shouldn't: the great thing about BF is that they produce so much stuff - so much stuff - that you can pick and choose what you want to buy.
For me, though, it diminishes certain eras and moments. To me - and this will sound more harsh than I wish it - the interesting thing with River was that she would meet The Doctor 'backwards', in reverse order. That was her 'gimmick', if you like. Take that away from her and she is just another character - well written and well played, of course - but 'just' another returning character.
There's nothing wrong with each Doctor having his/her own monster. It helps differentiate the era. To spread everybody and everything out so much, in the way BF are currently doing lessens every era of its individuality a little - which is a bonus for some, and quite right too, but it isn't necessarily my cup of tea.
Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it.
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Post by Digi on Aug 9, 2019 11:14:07 GMT
I'm weirdly split on this. In principle, I completely agree - often I see news postings about crossovers and the first place my brain goes is "ugh, again?" But then, I hear the stories, and pretty well always end up at "well, that was pretty damned good, wasn't it?!" I guess I just need to have a little faith
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Post by sherlock on Aug 9, 2019 11:14:38 GMT
I like crossovers, but do feel we’re getting a bit oversaturated.
My main frustration with this kind of crossovers has been River Song, where it seems the range is now doing nothing but crossovers with River literally visiting old stories. There must be more potential for the character to do than lurking just off screen in her husband’s adventures. I really liked how Series 3 and 4 used continuity to create original situations, and gave River her own unique foils and supporting characters. Series 5 again gave River entirely new situations and supporting characters to clash with the Masters, which worked well. I do realise I’m complaining about a product that isn’t actually out though, so if reviews are good I’m happy to be proven wrong.
UNIT, well my problem was that range felt a bit ‘monster of the week’ with characters running on the spot development-wise (though I haven’t heard the last two sets, so that may have changed for all I know), rather than the crossovers themselves. It would be nice to see more of UNIT vs original monsters that they have absolutely no records on. I haven’t heard Shutdown, but will try next sale.
The War Master range has imo been an example of crossovers used well. The Ood in War Master 2 are very much supporting villains to the main cast, and equally the Daleks have been used sparingly in the entire range (only in two of the 12 stories so far). There are links to the wider universe in the War Master, but they’re not the focus of the stories.
I don’t doubt crossovers can can produce good stories, the recent Torchwood vs Monsters initiative produced some very good stories, but maybe a little calming down on the number of crossovers would be nice.
Hmm maybe a longer post than I’d anticipated and I’m not entirely sure if any clear point comes across. Nevermind, I’ve typed it now might as well post.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2019 12:25:42 GMT
For me, yes. Too many crossovers as well as BF filling the gaps where it may be best to leave to the imagination. My main crossover bugbear is with the River Song series, too many crossovers with other Doctors rather than some exciting adventures like in the 1st boxset. Probably why I don't buy this range anymore.
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Post by OneTen on Aug 9, 2019 12:30:53 GMT
It's not so much that I don't like the episodes that are crossovers (or sequels, or rely on returning monsters etc.) but that I very much like hearing stories that aren't, i.e. stories that contain a lot of original characters and ideas. I don't want to complain about crossovers themselves, because: the great thing about BF is that they produce so much stuff - so much stuff - that you can pick and choose what you want to buy. But even with so so much stuff it sometimes feels like there are fewer stories that rely on new ideas and new characters rather than refurbishing some old ones. For example: solo River stories (like the magnificent 5:29) seem to have dried up* altogether over the last few boxes. For me, though, it diminishes certain eras and moments. This too. I enjoy a good story whether it's a crossover, sequel or whatever, where they do not diminish something from the earlier story (e.g. "Your eyes. You're younger than I've ever seen you.") They needn't do so - if they are done well, and with Big Finish they often are - although I guess the more there are the greater the risk. I can entirely see that selling a story purely on its quality - first of all attaining it, then getting it listened to and talked about, so that it actually sells - is much harder than selling it because it's "X meets Y" or "Thingy of the Daleks". That's not to say that there aren't extremely good crossovers and sequels (Emancipation, Primeval, Davros etc.) just that critical acclaim doesn't necessarily equate to success (see: The Holy Terror). Which is a great shame, because UNIT: Shutdown, already much cited in this thread, is far and away my favourite box of that series. At that point I'd hoped BF were establishing a pattern where every other box would be original. So: too many cross-overs? Maybe. But more new stories with original characters & ideas? Definitely, yes please. *sorry
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Post by shallacatop on Aug 9, 2019 14:16:10 GMT
Very good points raised. I think there are a lot of crossovers and I think they have varying degrees of success.
UNIT has perhaps leaned too heavily on using returning monsters, but I think, certainly in the earlier sets, that wasn't the main issue with the series. In the past two sets, the characters feel more developed and the stories seem more personal, which benefit the stories, whether they're standalone or have the Wirrn or the Static in, etc.
River Song, for me, has been such a consistently good range. It's one of my favourites from Big Finish and I adore the character. I understand pairing her with past Doctors and I think thy have all been done in different ways. Having said that, my favourite three episodes from the range are three that don't involve the Doctor - Signs, 5:29 and The Lady in the Lake. These are brilliant platforms for River and really show that there's more to the character than linking them to the Doctor's history. Series 6 does seem very gimmicky and part of that is the fact it's spanning an entire set. They are probably going to be great stories, which is great, but that doesn't stop you from thinking there could be another way. We've ticked the big boxes with the Doctor now, but I think River is at her best in the standalone stories.
It's a little weird to make River's range so Doctor Who focused, as she's such a larger than life character and has been used in her own right in other ranges - UNIT, Legacy of Time, the Eighth Doctor sets, etc. - without baggage.
The future of River could be a balance of continuity and not doing a disservice to the character. Pair her with the Library crew, Nardole or Brian. Those are existing relationships, with the scope to explore, whilst maintaining that desired continuity.
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Post by ollychops on Aug 9, 2019 15:59:30 GMT
I kind of agree to an extent, I'm not so bothered about returning monsters (though, I do feel like UNIT is leaning a little too much on them), but it's more individual characters I have an issue with - like having Sylvia crossing paths with Lady Christina, it seemed like a case of having access to the character/actress and simply doing it for that sake. Though, on the other hand, with Class, I can understand why they went with the crossover with Ace and the Daleks - the series wasn't overly popular, and it was to try and draw people in to listen to the set more than anything, but at least it has some merit in the fact that Ace and the Daleks have a history with Coal Hill and they tapped into that in the story.
In regards to River, I'm getting a little tired of the constant DW crossovers with various Doctors, Masters and now going into Classic stories. After S4, I was hoping that she'd start moving away from meeting the Doctor every series and having more original adventures with the occasional crossover, and we seem to be going even harder with the crossovers with the upcoming set. I realise this sounds like me being negative, but I'm sure the upcoming set will be fantastic, but I would like less DW connections for River in the future.
I think it's a problem of diminishing returns, crossovers and returning monsters feel less "special" if we're getting things like that all the time. But, also, saying that, I tend to roll my eyes whenever we have a crossover/major returning monster, and then the story ends up being fantastic (the majority of the time, at least...) so I suppose I can't complain if the quality is good.
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Post by cwm on Aug 9, 2019 16:50:26 GMT
The new series ranges probably features so many different new series elements because it's the easiest way to use new series stuff (although we are starting to see more fusions of classic and new, such as the forthcoming Fourth Doctor Adventure with the Weeping Angels).
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Post by tuigirl on Aug 9, 2019 19:49:03 GMT
Hmm... I am in the camp with the people who are ambiguous about this. There were some really great crossovers which I really enjoyed and which really worked well- River in Doom Coalition, Ravenous 3 Companion Piece and of course the War Master series. I would not miss those for the world. However, there were also a few which I did not like so much- River meeting UNIT was a wasted opportunity and in general, the UNIT stories do not fill me with enthusiasm (although I really liked the ones in 8th of March and Legacy of Time). And although I came to Big Finish as a New Series fan, I have since then broadened my horizon and I am able to appreciate the different eras on their own merit. I do not need a constant mix and match. And I have to say that BF really blossoms when they show off their own creations. Some of my all-time favorites are BF creations- like the Eleven (who himself has now started to creep into some cross-overs). I just hope all this mix and matching won't stop them from bringing in some more original creations! In general, I sorely miss some of the early experimental stuff (Scherzo, Pirates etc.) and I fear that that got sacrificed to bring in all these flashy new series cross-overs. I also agree that the River stories got a bit old after Volume 3, but then Volume 4 came out and in my opinion, that was better than the three previous ones- maybe because it had 3 stories that mainly featured just River and only mentioned the Doctor (more or less often, I admit). It did show what she could do on her own, without a cross-over tether to hold her down. And I first thought that the Masters meeting River was a gimmick, however, I also quite enjoyed that one. I have some high hopes for the next River stories coming up, I wonder what they will do when they mix up the format a bit. Jury is still out. So yes, I enjoy some of the cross-overs, some are amazing, and there are certainly some I am really looking forward to (8th Doctor vs. Valeyard and 8th Doctor vs. all the Masters for example). At the same time, I miss the more quiet releases and the more personal stories. I do not need big events all the time. So I quite appreciate that for the first stories of Benny with the Warner Doctor in our universe, we do not get cross-over stories but stories where they will sort themselves out first. I am sure there will be cross-overs at some point (I would lie if I said I was not curious of the Warner Doctor meeting his other selves), but for a start, I am looking forward to some more personal "warming up" stories. But I am aware that all these cross-overs seem to be what sells and it certainly is something that creates attention on social media. The 8th Doctor meets all the Masters! How awesome is that? I would, however, also listen to a character piece of just the Doctor with Liv and Helen in the TARDIS cleaning, herding fleder-shrews and bantering. But try to sell that one on social media. This might also be the reason we might not see the likes of Scherzo again -and that one was absolutely amazing, with a cast of 2 and without the need of any cross-overs. But of course I might be wrong. I was totally surprised that they made something like Lies in Ruins part of the anniversary set, I had not expected anything that dark. So I hope I will be surprised.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Aug 9, 2019 20:02:21 GMT
I think sometimes crossovers go too far but on the other hand there are some crossovers I do think are justified.
For instace River' entire raison d'etre in both the real and fictional worlds is to have crossovers with the Dr. So for me there's not much interest or point in her apart from crossovers.
Gallifrey time war and 8th dr time war have not yet crossed over but I think they need to - in the fictional context it is strange that they havent crossed over. Likewise a paternoster / Jago crossover would make sense to happen in the fictional context whereas a paternoster / counter measures crossover would just be a marketing gimmick.
But the ones I have mentioned are the exception rather than the rule - crossovers are great fun, but the novelty is starting to wear off and familiarity will eventually breed something close to contempt
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Post by tuigirl on Aug 9, 2019 20:24:36 GMT
I think sometimes crossovers go too far but on the other hand there are some crossovers I do think are justified. For instace River' entire raison d'etre in both the real and fictional worlds is to have crossovers with the Dr. So for me there's not much interest or point in her apart from crossovers. Gallifrey time war and 8th dr time war have not yet crossed over but I think they need to - in the fictional context it is strange that they havent crossed over. Likewise a paternoster / Jago crossover would make sense to happen in the fictional context whereas a paternoster / counter measures crossover would just be a marketing gimmick. But the ones I have mentioned are the exception rather than the rule - crossovers are great fun, but the novelty is starting to wear off and familiarity will eventually breed something close to contempt Yeah, I agree with you there. I really hope we get a great crossover finale with lots of explosions.
Maybe leading directly into Night of the Doctor.
That would be a cross-over that would make sense, that I would anticipate and that would work without being a gimmick.
However, when I first saw Time War- 8th Doctor meeting the Valeyard, I was a bit apprehensive (my crossover gimmick alarm went off). But the longer I thought about it, the more this became one of my most anticipated releases- it really has great potential. Hope they use it.
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Post by barnabaslives on Aug 9, 2019 21:06:16 GMT
I get the point entirely about too many cross-overs, but I don't think I mind them much myself even if it does feel that way. Maybe Big Finish is spread pretty thin and need to offer incentives, and such stories do sound like they're pretty popular, maybe for the same reason that multi-Doctor stories are popular. I do think of the Whoniverse as a big place but a small world where characters may cross paths, be it companions, monsters or Doctors. I'm also having trouble thinking of Big Finish villains or monsters that have really taken off aside from maybe the Eleven so that cross-overs with classic ones do sort of make better sense in that context? At least to me they probably seem well-suited to UNIT, for example, and I've been enjoying those quite a bit.
Maybe if I mind something, it's more like playing it really close to the cuff? I might have preferred original stories with River and the various Doctors for the upcoming River set, rather than I guess it feeling like she's getting shoehorned into existing stories and that we might be losing suspense for knowing how the stories end up. I felt like the Kamelion trilogy was playing it very close to the cuff and really not adding that much interest to the character because of it. I think I kind of felt that way about the Sycorax in CDNM also.
I guess maybe it also depends a little on how you break things down, too, though - okay we see "a lot" of River & Doctor stories in general which probably manages to bother me a little but River and a particular Doctor is still something that hasn't lost its rarity or its charm for me, and I'm still glad they're doing them so far. Then there are some that I really hoped for, like River and Bennie which is a dream come true, or the Torchwood stories that I think were mostly very successful and wouldn't mind more, and some I didn't even dare to hope for like the Eight Doctor and the Valeyard. To stay on point, I'm not even sure that last one is a cross-over as opposed to simply a returning villain, and a very welcome one at that.
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Post by Ela on Aug 9, 2019 23:35:41 GMT
I'm not really sure the ones listed in the original post are "crossovers" per se. Don't they all occur in the same universe? Maybe crossovers isn't really the right word.
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Post by number13 on Aug 10, 2019 1:33:31 GMT
Yes, probably. But does that mean I'm not interested in hearing them? No, probably! I guess it's very personal; there are 'X meets Y' stories and cross-overs each of us would like to see and others we couldn't care less about, so whether there are 'too many' depends on which ones BF decide to do. For example: I would love to hear the Third Doctor and Jo in an adventure with the other Third Doctor and Benny - I know I've mentioned this before but if I keep saying it, well, you never know... It's not a new question: I'm also a fan of the 1930s/40s 'Universal' horror movies, they began with genre-defining classics like 'Dracula', 'Frankenstein' and 'The Mummy', then made sequels like 'The Bride of Frankenstein' (one of those sequels which may be even better than the original), then moved into monster meet-ups like 'The House of Frankenstein' and 'The House of Dracula' (which are well down from the heights but I still enjoy them.) And then they made 'Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein'. It's a comedy/horror crossover for three famous Universal monsters and a comedy double-act, a commercial cross-over - and I think it works so well, fun and respectful of the original characters, a classic in its own right. (And yes I know some people dislike it, but this is all 'imo'.)
So if River, Benny and Charley want to team up with Iris for 'Trans-Temporal Adventuresses Vol 1: The Curse of the Panda's Paw' and throw in some musical numbers along the way, why not? It's up to us to buy it, or not. (And I would buy that set in nanoseconds by the way BF )
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Post by bohnny on Aug 10, 2019 1:57:35 GMT
I'm a definite yes on this.
In fact I'd go further and say that the marketing/fan service/gimmicky impulse that I assume is behind this seems to drive choices too much WITHIN DW as well - companions meeting 'other' doctors, returning monsters, filling gaps that don't (IMHO) need to be filled, sequels/prequels/returns to a previously visited planet etc.
Not so say that some of these aren't great, and supported by a good story, but the fanishness is definitely too much for my taste.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2019 4:42:11 GMT
Crossovers are funny creatures. I think it depends on what these returning elements bring to the table. Let's say, you wanted to do a Peladon story with the Wirrin. Now, that's a cool premise. That triggers the imagination. Why them specifically, though? What do they have that an original medieval society in space and parasitic lifeform, respectively, wouldn't? What prevents it from being inspired by these elements instead?
I think a sequel/prequel/gaiden story tends to fall flat when it provides answers, but doesn't invite any further questions. That's dead fiction to me. There's no life to it and it tends not to survive the passage of time well as a result. That's what the continuity bugbear attached to latter end of the classic series tended to be about. It was interesting to see those old allies, enemies and settings again, but unless they used them to explore something new, they didn't tend to fare very well.
It's like the Valeyard story coming up in one of the Time War boxsets. If it weren't for how discerning they've been with the character, I probably wouldn't have been as interested as I was. I suspect that we're currently in another wave of material (remember when we had a wave of Dalek stories, a wave of sequels, etc?). So long as there's a reason behind the crossover other than: "Well... Why not?" I'm okay with it. Personal preference is for original stories, though. I do like my Viyrans, Galyari, Megaptera, Memory Banks and mnemonic tyrants.
Better to avoid the obligatory and create something extraordinary than vice versa.
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Post by pawntake on Aug 10, 2019 7:24:33 GMT
In his 1st Boxset Adam Adamant meets River,and they do battle against the four Masters!!!
Well!!!The way things are going,it could be true??
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2019 9:24:30 GMT
Yes, probably. But does that mean I'm not interested in hearing them? No, probably! I guess it's very personal; there are 'X meets Y' stories and cross-overs each of us would like to see and others we couldn't care less about, so whether there are 'too many' depends on which ones BF decide to do. For example: I would love to hear the Third Doctor and Jo in an adventure with the other Third Doctor and Benny - I know I've mentioned this before but if I keep saying it, well, you never know... It's not a new question: I'm also a fan of the 1930s/40s 'Universal' horror movies, they began with genre-defining classics like 'Dracula', 'Frankenstein' and 'The Mummy', then made sequels like 'The Bride of Frankenstein' (one of those sequels which may be even better than the original), then moved into monster meet-ups like 'The House of Frankenstein' and 'The House of Dracula' (which are well down from the heights but I still enjoy them.) And then they made 'Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein'. It's a comedy/horror crossover for three famous Universal monsters and a comedy double-act, a commercial cross-over - and I think it works so well, fun and respectful of the original characters, a classic in its own right. (And yes I know some people dislike it, but this is all 'imo'.)
So if River, Benny and Charley want to team up with Iris for 'Trans-Temporal Adventuresses Vol 1: The Curse of the Panda's Paw' and throw in some musical numbers along the way, why not? It's up to us to buy it, or not. (And I would buy that set in nanoseconds by the way BF ) Great to know you are also a fan of the old Universal films! The ones you mention, House of Frankenstein/Dracula and of course the inevitable meeting with Abbott and Costello were great, but also proved to be the end of the line for that particular line of monsters (how I'd love to have seen a Frankenstein film that exploited Glenn Strange's talents more - he was a great Monster, but I digress). One of the reasons I see given in interviews and articles is, 'after they'd all teamed up, where else was for them to go?' And I think this is valid. The meet-ups were more financially successful than a further non-team-up would have been, and so to continue after that wouldn't really have been viable for Universal.
Whilst I wouldn't say that BF's many cross-overs were an example of them running out of steam or ideas, it does seem to smack of 'let's team Jo up with The 10th Doctor' because we can. My personal preference is that the story should come first, that there should be a dramatically interesting means for them to meet, rather than having the meeting itself being the 'tag'.
But like you say in your post, and I said in mine, it's up to us to buy it, and if the sales are healthy, then that's a sign people are enjoying them. Which is all good. But it does make you wonder if they will then feel the need to 'top' the latest meet-up with something else. Perhaps the recent Legacy of Time is the ultimate example of that (so far)?
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