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Post by mark687 on Aug 13, 2020 21:03:20 GMT
I forgot this was meant to double as a BF 20th Anniversary piece!
Regards
mark687
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Post by barnabaslives on Aug 14, 2020 5:30:31 GMT
mark687, could we have a poll please? I have a high rating I would like to give to The Headless Ones.
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Post by Timelord007 on Aug 14, 2020 6:33:24 GMT
Please no rattling discs when you send out the CDs, hate these double jewel cases.
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Post by mark687 on Aug 14, 2020 10:36:11 GMT
mark687 , could we have a poll please? I have a high rating I would like to give to The Headless Ones. Poll in Place Regards mark687
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Post by barnabaslives on Aug 14, 2020 11:51:47 GMT
mark687 , could we have a poll please? I have a high rating I would like to give to The Headless Ones. Poll in Place Thank you!!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2020 12:34:51 GMT
"I would have to get to know you better before proffering my ginger nuts."
The Headless Ones.
I agree with the poster who pointed out how tolerant The Sixth Doctor seems to be of the prejudices 'of their time' here, so soon after giving HP Lovecraft a dressing down for his. Hugh Skinner's Erpingham's sexism/classism ultimately drives the story in a very effective way.
There's something comforting about returning to Old Sixie and Peri, even though they are plucked from a different time and place than their TV counterparts. Deirdre Mullins delivers the same kind of terrific performance she has done throughout BF's Dracula stories,and Skinner is delightfully loathsome. Soon to celebrate 20 years of the same musical score, Andy Hardwick's orchestral swoops once again feature. His sound design is excellent as always, but some variation in his music would be nice.
I'm glad Colin and Nicola have their own box set. It seems this is the future regarding BF's classic Doctors, and while I'm definitely going to miss the cliffhangers of the monthly range (if every story is going to be a singular disc, that is), it's the story itself that counts - and this is a very good one. I'm also glad that, although we have older versions of The Doctor and Peri, that itself isn't the thrust of the tale - perhaps that will come later (Conflict Theory is a strong possibility).
A very enjoyable start to the set.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2020 17:32:30 GMT
"It's merely democracy in action."
Like.
This is a bit of a mixed bag for me.
Likes: I love when The Doctor visits a planet/colony that is very much like an exaggerated version of our society (Vengeance on Varos and The Sunmakers spring to mind). There are many witty moments here with sardonic comment heaped upon today's advert/brand/entitlement culture. I love The Doctor correcting the grammar of his arresting officer, for example, and his various opinions on the 'subs' and 'chips' that direct the populace - some laugh-out-loud moments there.
Dislikes: there are moments when the social commentary gets a bit heavy-handed without actually going anywhere, or anything getting solved, and comes at the expense of a compelling story. So many pastiches and parodies get in the way of anything much actually happening, and the ending is pretty anti-climactic.
The idea of society governed by 'likes' is a wonderful one, but got swamped with other things that diluted what could have been satisfying social commentary. For the Doctor, at the stories close, to say how human beings are his favourite species seemed a bit odd, considering the society he was vacating is very much like Earth 2020! Perhaps its just me.
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Post by shallacatop on Aug 14, 2020 21:17:34 GMT
I thought Likes was another mixed bag. Some good moments, I like the portrayal of Sixie, I like the concept and I like the interruptions to the story in the form of adverts. But it’s a clumsy bit of social commentary; there isn’t really a story that stems from it and often that’s why stories of this ilk get criticised. It’s meant to make you think and also be engrossed in events, but this just goes from one bit of statement to the other.
Two stories in, I’m beginning to notice a theme here; heavy handed social commentary and quirky framing devices, but little else.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Aug 14, 2020 21:42:33 GMT
I thought Likes was another mixed bag. Some good moments, I like the portrayal of Sixie, I like the concept and I like the interruptions to the story in the form of adverts. But it’s a clumsy bit of social commentary; there isn’t really a story that stems from it and often that’s why stories of this ilk get criticised. It’s meant to make you think and also be engrossed in events, but this just goes from one bit of statement to the other. Two stories in, I’m beginning to notice a theme here; heavy handed social commentary and quirky framing devices, but little else. Yeah you’re gonna keep noticing that.
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Post by antartiks on Aug 14, 2020 23:03:59 GMT
I had to pause "Like" twice because the sound design was just really getting on my nerves. {Spoiler} I'm talking about the "Yob" ad repeated ad nauseam and the passage at the beginng when Peri and the Doctor are speaking at the same time as the character sentencing them. I found it unbearable.
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Post by Kamelion on Aug 15, 2020 0:10:42 GMT
This demonstrates the progression of Big Finish to box sets instead of monthly releases, where they are tied to a release date promise which is always pending BBC approval.
Soon, they can just release stuff whenever they want and of course people can become unwilling investors by purchasing something in advance that has not even been produced yet, with no returns on their investments.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2020 8:28:01 GMT
This demonstrates the progression of Big Finish to box sets instead of monthly releases, where they are tied to a release date promise which is always pending BBC approval. Soon, they can just release stuff whenever they want and of course people can become unwilling investors by purchasing something in advance that has not even been produced yet, with no returns on their investments. I'm not quite sure the point you're making here, particularly on a thread for a release recorded in November 2018 (and commissioned in 2017) - the shift to box sets won't change anything in terms of the overall process.
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Aug 15, 2020 10:00:44 GMT
I've only listened to The Headless Ones. It was a struggle to get through to be honest.
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Post by barnabaslives on Aug 15, 2020 10:50:51 GMT
I loved every minute of The Headless Ones. There's wonderful supporting cast, a well-written suspenseful story, the TARDIS lands somewhere on Earth besides England, post-Yracanos Peri (mentally pictured in "I Survived Brian Blessed" t-shirt) is being a botanist, and it has a real historical element - people used to actually be on about these headless things, believe it or not. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headless_menNo problem with The Doctor not being harsh enough on the ne'er-do-wells. I know he said something to the effect of someone being a product of their time, but I'm pretty sure he also used the word "exploitation" more than once in a condemnatory manner.
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Post by elkawho on Aug 15, 2020 13:19:05 GMT
I'm only in the middle of the third story so I can only talk about the first two as of now. I'm not loving this one. I didn't like The Headless Ones, and I really hated Like. These have to be the two stories with the most heavy handed messaging we've had in a long time. They were completely patronizing. And the irony of Like, the characters being unable to think for themselves while the stories are pretty much telling you what you should think. Stories about the lack of freedom of thought while at the same time being told if you think differently than us you're bad.
Forgetting about the messaging (although that is almost impossible), the structure of Like was really off-putting. I know the fake advertisements thrown into the story were supposed to be amusing, but I found them intrusive and grating. The aliens (I can't remember the name well enough to write it) were purely a plot device and again, a heavy handed one. There was nothing original or even interesting here. Every plot point was predictable and bland. There are many pro-refugee, anti-social media stories that have been handled more deftly and with better care than this.
To be honest, I expected more from Jac Raynor. I've enjoyed most of her stories and she's an experienced enough writer to do better. So far, this box set is the worst of Colin's era. Bad writing of bland stories with overbearing characters that are difficult to listen to.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2020 13:51:23 GMT
"Science fiction - never the critic's darling."
The Vanity Trap.
Writer Stuart Manning is one of the reasons I bought this set - it's been too long since we last heard one of his stories. I like his writing, I like that the plot isn't always obvious until it needs to be, that so many things are happening and you're never quite sure what is important and what isn't. I like the characters he creates and the moments between them; and this is no exception.
Stephen Critchlow and Sarah Douglas are terrific in their roles, as is poor, put-upon Carolyn-Sue, played by Rosie Baker: Old Sixie's daughter! There's a good bit of bickering about two-thirds in, between the Doctor and Peri. Now, bickering has a bad rap regarding these two. It's one thing squabbling for no reason other than 'eccentricity' or whatever, but the difference of opinion that occurs here is well written and played, demonstrating the two main characters' occasional frustrations with each other, even after all this time. I've a feeling Conflict will deal with such spikiness later.
This reminds me very slightly of the television run of Sapphire and Steel - or more specifically, the one story in the run not written by creator PJ Hammond. Time as an entity biting into a seemingly unconnected situation and manipulating characters. I'd say this is my favourite story so far.
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Post by mark687 on Aug 15, 2020 13:55:31 GMT
Actually a point to bring up is what was/ is this release marketed as? I thought it was post "Widows Assassin" so a more level headed Six, the tag line on the release material was "back to 1986" so the result is high quality 1986 but still unsubtle delivery of the themes depending on the listeners taste.
Its still very good though
Regards
mark687
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2020 14:49:43 GMT
I have to say that reading the general feeling about these, brings to mind the same reservations I had regarding 'Blood on Santa's Claw' back in December, with its 'religious satire' (The Goodies level of sophistication, rather than Python, though), but of which I refrained from commenting as the general consensus was favourable towards it.
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Post by shallacatop on Aug 15, 2020 15:59:18 GMT
Actually a point to bring up is what was/ is this release marketed as? I thought it was post "Widows Assassin" so a more level headed Six, the tag line on the release material was "back to 1986" so the result is high quality 1986 but still unsubtle delivery of the themes depending on the listeners taste. Its still very good though Regards mark687 I’ve always found it a strange decision really. I’m not sure what else you can do with this pairing after Peri’s departure. Not enough time has passed for them to really move in a different direction, so you’re just left in the same state you’d have with pre-Trial stories, albeit with Peri occasionally mentioning she was a Queen. So they’re not technically wrong with it being “back to 1986”, as there’s little change, but it also scratches the itch of the continuation that fans want. I do like the portrayal of Sixie and the way Colin plays it in this set, even if the two stories I’ve listened to so far are lacking. I’m in the minority that isn’t fond of the “Big Finish Sixie”; he’s so different he might as well be a different incarnation to me, so this is a pleasant change for me. I’m not a big enough fan of this incarnation for it to be a big deal, though.
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Post by nitronine on Aug 15, 2020 16:02:27 GMT
‘The Headless Men’ I quite enjoyed, nothing mindblowing but a fun adventure with a few nice twists. I also enjoyed ‘The Vanity Trap’, can’t say I fully understood it, but I’m sure I’ll like it more on relistens. The other two I had a few issues with. I don’t want to sound overly negative but to fully express myself I’m going to have to male quite a long post for this one. Also just to preface, most of my issues stem from my interpretations of the messages of the story, if you interpret them differently then great, I’d be happy to hear your opinions and I’m not going to tell you you’re wrong, but equally I don’t want to be told that I’m 100% wrong because this is what I thought the stories were saying. I really don’t want to be overly negative, especially for a release that I’ve been so looking forward to for months, but I’ve been left with a sour taste in my mouth after this. {Spoilers mainly for episodes 2 and 4} ‘Like’ was cramming too much into the 1-hour format and I think would’ve worked better with two. Peri just suddenly becomes famous at the start, and the resolution pretty much happens off-screen (off-headphones?) and was explained afterwards that they just made a TV show to get people to like the Yobs. The messaging here was very obvious, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, like I said I quite liked the 1st story in the set and that had very obvious themes and messages, the same with last month’s ‘The Lovecraft Invasion’ which I also enjoyed, but here they just seem underdeveloped. Like elkawho said it’s a quite hypocritical story for presenting its own ideas as correct and not really even looking at the opposing opinions other than to say the other side is wrong for not letting you think differently. I don’t really like social media, I have them mainly to interact with friends and to see information shared that I otherwise wouldn’t have been able to get about important issues. However, I still think that the negatives often outweigh the positives, so it’s not like I necessarily disagree with the intended message, but the message just comes off as messy. It’s less an allegory for social media and ‘cancel culture’ and more a “Isn’t the situation in the story bad? Well, this is basically what all social media is and you should hate it.” The thing is I’m not even sure if this was intended, but to me, that’s what it came off as, and the perceived message is more important than the intended one because that’s the one the audience sees. The refugee aspect was also pretty underdeveloped. Regardless of what you think on the issue, it’s not handled well here either way. The majority of the humans on the planet hate this other race, then one of them appears in a sitcom that gets popular which the actor finds degrading and offence (in the context of the story, not in the real world) but this means that now the majority opinion is that the whole race is a loveable bunch of goofballs and they should now be saved. I’m sorry but this is a huge leap for me to swallow in the final few minutes of the story. I don’t for one second believe that millions of people on the planet simultaneously just decided not to be bigoted anymore and actually love the aliens. I know this isn’t the exact same situation but hear me out; Apu on the Simpsons presents a loveable goofball caricature of an Indian man and yet people are still racist to Indian people in the real world, seeing him on TV didn’t just change people’s minds instantly and make them not bigots. One of the aliens even says that once their ship has enough power they want to find somewhere else to live because they don’t want to be in a society that sees their entire species as idiots and the Doctor brushes it off and says something along the lines of “once they get to know you they’ll stop that and you’ll all live happily ever after.” Obviously this is fiction but that’s another incredibly huge leap, and for the Doctor to say to a member of an oppressed people not to worry and that their oppression, because it’ll all sort itself out eventually, is very out of touch and quite a harmful message. Especially when listening to this story in 2020 after everything that’s happened with Black Lives Matter, I know this was written two years ago but I think I probably would’ve had a similar reaction if I’d heard this then too. ‘Conflict Theory’ I quite enjoyed for the most part until it stumbled right at the end. A lot of Nev Fountain’s stories, especially his ones Peri, touches on the companion’s relationship to the Doctor and their struggles, so I was really excited to have this brought to the forefront and literally have it analysed in the story by a therapist. And this is what happens at the beginning, but then at the end it was revealed that it was all a plan by the Doctor to defeat evil therapist robots and all that development from the start is actually non-existent because the Doctor and Peri were faking it. I was a little bit disappointed by this, but it was still an ok story. But there was one final punch in the gut in the closing couple of minutes. For context, in the story there are robots who destroy planets because of their own perceived inferiorities (I don’t see the correlation but ok), and we later learn that they were programmed with every mental illness known to man to test the Sigmund Freud robots. It sounds weird but it makes sense in the story. After not being cured by the Freud bots they decide to wipe them out as punishment. The Doctor then says that he will program them to remove their neurosis, at which point Peri shouted this line of dialogue at the mentally ill robots (quoting word for word this time) “You are not inferior. You’re intelligent, beautiful… Just buck yourselves up, and take that on board… Now smile!” When I heard this I thought it was going to turn out to be some sort of criticism about or parody of the people who think that you can just cure mental illnesses by telling people to “snap out of it” but then the Doctor says that he thinks Peri has sorted them out, implying that he won’t reprogram them after all and that everything is fine now. That is an awful message to spread, as someone who has struggled with self-worth/anxiety/depression issues in the past, people feel much worse when they are just told to get over themselves. They need support, not to be told that they are stupid for feeling the way they do. Having Peri not only say this thing to someone with a mental health issue, but also have the Doctor tell her it was the right thing to do is spreading misinformation about these types of things and goes against actual therapists’ and mental health professionals’ advice. I know that in the story these are presented as a joke because they’re robots with mental health issues but it seemed that the butt of the joke was robots with mental health issues, rather than robots with mental health issues if that makes sense. With the amount of mental health awareness that is out there these days I refuse to believe that Nev Fountain intended these messages when he wrote it, but, like I said before, it’s less about what the author is trying to say and more about what they’re actually saying.
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