|
Post by Bazoolium on Sept 23, 2019 22:59:41 GMT
There's a point where Nyssa says that Tegan has know the Doctor as long as she has. I thought Nyssa had spent ages by herself with the Doctor between Time Flight and Arc of Infinity.
Am I just confused as to where this story sits?
|
|
|
Post by themeddlingmonk on Sept 24, 2019 1:08:43 GMT
There's a point where Nyssa says that Tegan has know the Doctor as long as she has. I thought Nyssa had spent ages by herself with the Doctor between Time Flight and Arc of Infinity. Am I just confused as to where this story sits? There’s not really any confusion to be had, it’s just a continuity error. Someone’s obviously forgotten about the Nyssa gap or at least didn’t realise it was quite as long as it seems to be.
|
|
|
Post by Bazoolium on Sept 27, 2019 22:13:54 GMT
It's enjoyable, if a little sloe. There's some great Characterisation for the regulars and Cicero.
Marc seems nice enough, but I shall wait to see how he works with Nyssa and Tegan.
Nyssa got a lot to do, but Tegan just talked. She was more interesting at the party.
|
|
|
Post by mark687 on Oct 1, 2019 14:04:27 GMT
MR Subscriber PDF Script and Sub Extended Extra DL are in Accounts
Regards
mark687
|
|
|
Post by slithe on Oct 5, 2019 11:46:39 GMT
In many ways, the Fifth Doctor and the First Doctor are quite interchangeable. On the face of it, you wouldn't think so - older man v. younger man, grouchy/spiky (initially at the start of the First Doctor's run) v. kind and compassionate. However, this story would work ideally well for either incarnation. I've also had a similar thought with The Secret History - the Fifth Doctor sat so well there, it was hardly surprising that this (for me at least) was the most successful of the Locus Doctors idea in 2015 (Last of the Cybermen was fun, but more of an excuse for Sixie to meet up with Hines/Padbury again).
I start off with that aside as I think it is the reason that Tartarus worked. It felt like a 'classic' Doctor who adventure. Certainly, the premise itself is nothing new - Doctor and companions go to meet a famous person from history and end up being caught up with alien technology pretending to be of that area (the Fifth Doctor experienced it in The Visitation and BF have done it several times). The Doctor dropping in on someone 'famous' has also been done umpteen times before. So, on paper, Tartarus should be quite a pedestrian story that would not normally hold my attention. However, I found that this release was good because it subtly tries to push the Fifth Doctor's era a bit more and, just like Harry Houdini's War, there is a lot more to this than meets the eye (misdirection seems to be a theme).
Having the story as two feature-length episodes was a better idea. It got rid of 'needless cliff-hangers' (we know the Doctor, Tegan, Nyssa, etc. will not die - so no need for fake jeopardy). It also lets the story develop a bit more. Whilst this slows the pace a bit (especially in Episode 2), it does allow the characters to develop a bit. We get to see the cast interact with each other much more and the story becomes more enjoyable. In many ways, the plot smacked of a mix of The Romans/The Myth Makers and Death to the Daleks (wandering though an unknown land being tested) and whilst this was not particularly engaging at times (the robots (again) line was tiresome) the interaction with the case made up for this. Davison is particularly on good form here and his sparring with Cicero is quite good/enjoyable - especially at the beginning and squabbling to be 'the leader). Nyssa is well served here and her interactions with Marc are good.
Despite appearing very jolly and happy, there is a particularly dark undertone to this, which I quite enjoyed. We always know that Cicero and his world are not what they seem (the fake Tartarus just reinforces this). Marc, despite everything he does, is still a slave and is owned by Cicero. Cicero himself is a great orator, but a flawed man with secrets of his own. The Doctor, despite the clumsy reference by Nyssa, is also burying secrets and pretends to be someone he is not. The whole thing is fake and put on as a great show - underneath things are not what they seem. The darker tone also develops here well - the end of the second part particularly so and reflects the complete change in approach that was seen in The Myth Makers.
Marc is probably the most interesting character. He is entirely blank but has a photographic memory. Whist he fits the Roman 'stock-character' of 'clever slave' well, you get the feeling he is more than that. He is very blasé about TARDIS travel and modern technology, which I think is a difference from Katerina. Tartarus herself also recognises something more to the character, which will doubtlessly be developed. Interestingly, the Doctor is reluctant to take Marc with him (is this guilt from Adric - perhaps, but maybe not?!) Even the ending, which appears to suggest something unpleasant, is not entirely what it seems - the idea of a Deus Ex Machina is referenced before this scene, which does make one wonder if that is a deliberate reference.
Overall I liked this. Where it fits into the 5th Doctor timeline is unclear. It definitely feels like a move towards a more 'darker' approach to Davison stories and reflects the new production team. Definitely a step up from the previous trilogy.
A great month for the MR!
|
|
|
Post by iainbenson on Oct 5, 2019 17:17:05 GMT
I had to do a quick IMDB check at one point, “seen it; I was in it: third Greek from the left.” Very nice touch.
|
|
|
Post by shallacatop on Oct 17, 2019 14:32:06 GMT
Really enjoyed this. A great adventure romp that was pure fun. Some cracking material for the Doctor, Tegan, Nyssa, Marc & Ccero, with their respective actors lapping it up. I think it could have been a truly tight three parter, but I did appreciate the change in format and I think the story benefits from it: none of the part one build up and cliffhangers with our TARDIS crew at risk.
An intriguing final scene too. I can't wait to get stuck in to the latest release.
|
|
|
Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Oct 22, 2019 7:18:12 GMT
I had to do a quick IMDB check at one point, “seen it; I was in it: third Greek from the left.” Very nice touch. I think they over-egged the gag, nice as it was, he should have left it at “I was in it”.
|
|
|
Post by nottenst on Oct 30, 2019 18:47:00 GMT
Finished this and the extended extras yesterday. It was quite enjoyable. I hadn't read about the different format, so as the first CD was getting to the halfway point I was getting anxious for a cliffhanger and themes, which would have occurred near the time I was arriving at work the other day, but they weren't there. It worked well for the story.
I have not listened to the Cicero series and doubt I will. Just have too many other items to listen to. Still, the next time that series is on sale, I may decide to buy.
It has been many years since I've seen the Ray Harryhausen films, but I could still bank on some of that memory for visualizations for the Tartarus part of the story.
Like many here, I am a bit disturbed by the tag at the end. I am still looking forward to the next stories.
|
|
|
Post by slithe on Nov 3, 2019 11:59:08 GMT
Finished this and the extended extras yesterday. It was quite enjoyable. I hadn't read about the different format, so as the first CD was getting to the halfway point I was getting anxious for a cliffhanger and themes, which would have occurred near the time I was arriving at work the other day, but they weren't there. It worked well for the story. I have not listened to the Cicero series and doubt I will. Just have too many other items to listen to. Still, the next time that series is on sale, I may decide to buy. It has been many years since I've seen the Ray Harryhausen films, but I could still bank on some of that memory for visualizations for the Tartarus part of the story. Like many here, I am a bit disturbed by the tag at the end. I am still looking forward to the next stories. I do wonder about that 'tag' - it implies that Marc will meet his end (at some point) but is that too obvious? We shall see next month. Jason and the Argonauts was on the TV the other day and ended up watching it with this story in mind... Love the references to this, even if they are a bit over egged. Personally, I would have preferred the Interstitial/Feast of Fear to have been an extended 1 parter rather than 2 x 1 25 mins as I thought it worked better and removed 'redundant' cliffhangers. With the exception of Marc (who we know is in at least the next release), the rest are not going to die.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2019 6:27:57 GMT
Catching up to meet the hubbub around Warzone/Conversion. Nice. Unusual. Tartarus has a rather meditative quality to it. I can't help but be reminded of Myst. Did anyone else initially get similar vibes? (A mysterious island with unusual puzzles, inhabited by ambiguously trustworthy figures who are perhaps using the travellers for their own means?) The structure is rather interesting because although the customary cliffhangers have been discarded, we still have our crisis points in Chapter 6 of each respective episode. The bronze figure crushes a man in its grip for what I'll call the syndicated "Part One" and "Part Three" could have concluded with Nyssa's attempt at bullfighting. It's testament to the author's craft that we can just skip on through without any sense of disconnection. If anyone's looking for something more to digest now that this trilogy's done and dusted, I can recommend picking up Justin Richards's The Sands of Time. After Five's time with Nyssa solo, I'm willing to bet that him losing her in that story rekindled his feelings over Adric here.
|
|
|
Post by slithe on Nov 30, 2019 11:24:25 GMT
Catching up to meet the hubbub around Warzone/Conversion. Nice. Unusual. Tartarus has a rather meditative quality to it. I can't help but be reminded of Myst. Did anyone else initially get similar vibes? (A mysterious island with unusual puzzles, inhabited by ambiguously trustworthy figures who are perhaps using the travellers for their own means?) The structure is rather interesting because although the customary cliffhangers have been discarded, we still have our crisis points in Chapter 6 of each respective episode. The bronze figure crushes a man in its grip for what I'll call the syndicated "Part One" and "Part Three" could have concluded with Nyssa's attempt at bullfighting. It's testament to the author's craft that we can just skip on through without any sense of disconnection. If anyone's looking for something more to digest now that this trilogy's done and dusted, I can recommend picking up Justin Richards's The Sands of Time. After Five's time with Nyssa solo, I'm willing to bet that him losing her in that story rekindled his feelings over Adric here. Yes, I can easily see what you mean with Myst (been years since I played that game!) I also got strong Keys of Marinus and Death to the Daleks (solving puzzles and being watched) vibes as well. I agree that the longer style episodes work well here and I think BF should continue with this. The two-part stories also work well and are about the same length as the New Episodes, with just enough to keep the stories going but not feel padded.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 3:22:53 GMT
Catching up to meet the hubbub around Warzone/Conversion. Nice. Unusual. Tartarus has a rather meditative quality to it. I can't help but be reminded of Myst. Did anyone else initially get similar vibes? (A mysterious island with unusual puzzles, inhabited by ambiguously trustworthy figures who are perhaps using the travellers for their own means?) The structure is rather interesting because although the customary cliffhangers have been discarded, we still have our crisis points in Chapter 6 of each respective episode. The bronze figure crushes a man in its grip for what I'll call the syndicated "Part One" and "Part Three" could have concluded with Nyssa's attempt at bullfighting. It's testament to the author's craft that we can just skip on through without any sense of disconnection. If anyone's looking for something more to digest now that this trilogy's done and dusted, I can recommend picking up Justin Richards's The Sands of Time. After Five's time with Nyssa solo, I'm willing to bet that him losing her in that story rekindled his feelings over Adric here. Yes, I can easily see what you mean with Myst (been years since I played that game!) I also got strong Keys of Marinus and Death to the Daleks (solving puzzles and being watched) vibes as well. I agree that the longer style episodes work well here and I think BF should continue with this. The two-part stories also work well and are about the same length as the New Episodes, with just enough to keep the stories going but not feel padded. Yeah, I can definitely see that. I do like a good set of puzzles and the justification for their use felt authentic. I wouldn't mind seeing this format pop up occassionally like the X and Other Stories releases we have occassionally. They might work rather well for character studies. Interestingly, the cliffhanger halfway point doesn't feel quite as arbitrary as it first appears. At the end, when we meet Tartarus, it's that incident in particular that proves to be the deciding factor between who is chosen between Cicero, Marc and the Doctor.
|
|
|
Post by slithe on Dec 31, 2019 12:26:53 GMT
Having thoroughly enjoyed the recent 5th Doctor Trilogy, I thought I'd start again with this one.
Perhaps it is because I am more receptive to this or am paying more attention than on first listen, but I enjoyed the first half of this story far more than I did on initial release. There is some very good world building at the start and listening to the Doctor fawning over Cicero is hilarious. Davison is on form here and you actually get to see the Doctor react to one of his 'heroes' instead of being the 'hero' himself/herself for a change. Whether the Doctor should be dropping hints about Gravity and other such material is, debatable - but certainly you get the feeling the Doctor would be telling his companions off for doing this!
There are some good sign posts for the rest of the trilogy - the idea of the Doctor 'hiding' his grief and his identity, the question of whether the Doctor's companions are equals or 'slaves' (are they really free to do what they want) and the Sybl's prophecy about Marc is also interesting. Whether intentional or not, it is clear (especially from the end scene) that this story sets up a longer arc than just an initial trilogy of releases and that is to be welcomed. I also wonder if the Doctor returning to Cicero at the end is part of another story that will reveal more of Marc/his origins (I spotted the confusion on Cicero's voice when Marc said he could 'read' - certainly that is not something of an ordinary slave...)
In many ways this story also shows where Blood on Santa's Claw went wrong (and to a certain extent Lure of the Nomad) and also shows where Criss-Cross, Crimes of Thomas Brewster, Eye of the Scorpion, The Marian Conspiracy, etc. As with the second named releases, BF have spent time in creating and fleshing out Marc here and this is developed across the releases with the 5th Doctor - in many ways it is in the style of the New Series (although there are overtones of the 7th Doctor and Ace as well). However, the companions Mathew and Joe end up as rather 2D and 'stock' characters, which does devalue the stories somewhat, which is disappointing as the idea of a 'fake' companion is something that could really work well - Joe and Mathew could each have been developed across a series of adventures before the reveal.
Looking forward to the second half of this. It is a mix of old Who and new. Really hope that BF continues in the same vein next year - second half of the MR has been really strong.
|
|
|
Post by Tim Bradley on Dec 31, 2019 12:30:04 GMT
|
|
|
Post by slithe on Jan 2, 2020 11:11:22 GMT
Just finished the second half of this. As with the first half, I enjoyed this more than I initially did in September. Again, there is a lot of material that becomes far more relevant when you have listened to the entire trilogy, which makes this far more interesting.
I also noticed how darker the second half is compared to the first (literally as well as metaphorically). This happens from the outset - the scene on the bridge with the phantoms is a good indication of where this is going to go. Whilst Cicero is clearly haunted by his demons from Cataline (perhaps showing he isn't quite the hero that the Doctor thinks he is), the parallel with the Doctor is very strong. It is obvious who the Doctor 'sees' on the bridge and the horror that Davison expresses at seeing the character again is very striking. This is reinforced by the fact that Tartarus describes the Doctor as a 'failure' for failing to look after one of his team (which becomes more prophetic when you look at the events in Warzone/Conversion).
I also enjoyed the way that the second half, slowly and subtly, demolished the 'heroic' status of both the Fifth Doctor and Cicero. To his companions, Nyssa and Tegan, the Doctor is totally innocent/heroic and can do no wrong - yet, this is slowly undermined by both the Doctor's interactions with Cicero AND Tartarus. Similarly, to the Doctor, Cicero is a hero and the Doctor holds him on such a pedestal in the first half - yet Tegan, Nyssa end up seeing the character as far less than perfect (almost a mirror image to the Doctor with his companions). Across the story these legends are slowly pulled down and by the end you see neither, the Doctor nor Cicero at their finest. The arrogance that both think that they are 'chosen' by Tartarus undermines the egoism of the characters - to the extent that the companions (or slaves?) are ignored - Marc, Tegan and Nyssa often have the 'right' answers but these are dismissed as 'silly' by supposedly more intelligent superiors.
The idea that Marc is to be used as part of a battle computer is again prophetic (almost a mirror of Conversion). The idea that 'Marc' is an 'empty innocent' is also quite interesting - is this because he is a 'blank' character OR that he loses everything to conversion at the end of the trilogy? The idea that Marc is far more than who he appears is made quite clear here (and is built throughout the trilogy) - it is unclear why he can 'read' (Cicero doesn't know this) or why he has such a good memory or why he appears so unphased by everything in the subsequent stories (unlike Katerina say).
As ever, the ending is quite prophetic. The quotes from Ulysses at the end is great and it is clear from the final scene that there is more to come from this... The interviews also suggest that Cicero and the Doctor will meet again at some point.
A very strong trilogy this one. With Sixie's Peri Trilogy earlier in 2019, BF ends on a strong note for 2019.
|
|
|
Post by Ela on Aug 11, 2021 0:23:28 GMT
I listened to this back in June or so and never got around to posting here. I did enjoy this quite a lot. I love the Cicero releases and so liked the crossover with Doctor Who. It makes me sad to know in advance, though, a hint of Marc's fate as a companion of the Doctor.
|
|
|
Post by Kestrel on Aug 11, 2021 18:39:51 GMT
Yeah, the crossover was great. I'd love to see more of that kind of thing--let's bring in Sherlock Holmes and the Invisible Man someday, too! And, if dreams ever do come true, I'd love to see the Doctor face off against Arsene Lupin.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2021 21:26:30 GMT
Two 50-minute episodes, just like Resurrection of the Daleks! WOW!! Speaking of which, how come were they split into two parts, rather than the 'standard' four-part half hours?
|
|
|
Post by mark687 on Sept 1, 2021 21:43:10 GMT
Two 50-minute episodes, just like Resurrection of the Daleks! WOW!! Speaking of which, how come were they split into two parts, rather than the 'standard' four-part half hours? If Memory serves David or Scott decided that wasn't a way to get 3 Cliff-hangers in without it being an awkward break in the narrative particularly during "The Trial" portion Regards mark687
|
|